"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[ManiaCCC]

You just like Talents, Specs and spec agnostic gear?
Like mate, that's how they've been designing the game for last 12 years - barring the rental power systems of Legion & BfA.

And it's wrong to want having some meaningful choices back in the game? I think we can have both.

Also I don't believe that covenant abilities will be strong enough to make some meaningful difference. Yea, maybe a 1% more damage or easier to avoid "shit on the ground" but I don't think everything should be designed around tryhards.

[LorDC]

then you need to learn how to read with comprehension, bcs its quite the opposite...

What's this than:

I hope Blizzard does this every expansion just because I like seeing Hardcore (aka Heroic) Raiders go apeshit because they cant minmax in everything.

Funny as fuck. Maybe put your calculator away and actually play the game lmao

Care to give examples?

[pinkz]

there were no forced systems in BFA...azerite, essences, followers, PVP, cloak, etc. were all optional.

why would anything in shadowlands all of a sudden become forced or mandatory?

[Tyris Flare]

A point that doesn't seem to come up is that if Blizzard makes it easier to maintain alts (no AP grind etc), people are just going to have alts of the same class for different content. "Here is my paladin for m+ push weeks, here is my raid paladin, etc).

Split raiding will also be stronger than ever.

[Kralljin]

And it's wrong to want having some meaningful choices back in the game? I think we can have both.

Then maybe start by putting these elements back into the game, rather than come up with a brand new system that requires hundreds of hours of testing in order to be decent.

It's extremely incoherent when a game keeps changing its own rules for no reason whatsoever other than in an attempt to please both parties.

Also I don't believe that covenant abilities will be strong enough to make some meaningful difference.

As a Shaman, three out of four Covenant abilities are pretty much just AoE abilities, meaning that they're not going to be very good on Single Target encounters or PvP.

And looking at DH here, their Night Fae ability "The Hunt" looks straight nuts in PvP.
Similiar thing goes for Mages, Mirrors of Torment reads like an ability that is situational in PvE but straight up OP in PvP.

The belief that Blizzard can somehow offset these via Soulbinds is highly unlikely, especially because the Soulbind effects are general effects, not class specific effects.

Sorry, but unless those abilities turn out to be very weak (which i doubt) or get nerfed into the ground, then anyone who says that they're not going to be very impactful hasn't checked them at all.
Especially as far as PvP is concerned.

[Niwes]

I've said it couple of times in this thread: covenants being hard to change is even worse than them being straight up locked. Because, if they were locked people would bitch but maybe accept that it is a permanent choice and learn to deal with it the way people mostly don't blame you for not being FOTM class. Ability to change covenant creates pressure both in individual minds and in collective opinion to push for being optimal and changing for every possible situation despite it being way too hard.
Situation is somewhat (note the emphasis) similar to master-loot. Yes, master-loot creates opportunity to do a lot of good, but even an option of it being there also opens a giant can of worms that Blizzard decided they don't want players to deal with.

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No, no, no you can't just declare something shit until you eat mouthful of it. Otherwise it is not an informed opinion.

nice one !

[LedZeppelin]

Either all covenants are completely equal in which the choice doesnt matter or this covenant does 1% more dps so everyone selects that one. Only other option is 'this is the healer covenant' , 'this is the dps covenant', ' this is the tank covenant'. I dont understand what people really expect out of this shit. its the same with talents

[Niwes]

So what, I'm still on those groups and I'm still doing the content.
Everyone else is free restrict their own groups with whatever they want.

If someone isn't satisfied, they are free to create their own groups too, as is tradition in WoW.

thats totally clear. but it seems your mind cant think further than that.

lets spin it on, just theoretically. if there are 2 groups of ppl like you per realm, lets say 50 ppl. that ppls all going „we dont care“ and ofc not interact that much with others and stay instead on their own (what you already said too and whats ofc obvious, because since all other ppl have not the same mindset they will also not play/interact with you much). this means all ppl on all realms besides the 50 ppl per realm go like „such shit“. i would call that 90% of the player base or more.

so, what do you think for how long „your groups“ can handle this ? lets say by your own you can handle this forever. but do you really think you can still play WoW by your own, when x millions (90% player base) are pissed and also have another mindset ? half of them leave. other half will be even more become focused on that shit. and in the end, when Blizzard realizes the game is it no longer worth, just for some stupids still here (even when they hate it) and also your 50 ppl, they shut down the servers (the theoretically extreme). then you also can no longer play with your 50 ppl. because even when you „dont care“ Covenant stuff and when you „dont care“ playing or relying on other ppl in a mmorpg (lol), well you can not play without running servers.

what i wanna say: your mindset is rather short thought and it will bring you nowhere. nor is it realistic to hold this up in reality. or in short: you act like you can decouple you from player base and the gaming environment, you dont control. in a mmorpg. thats laughable.

[A Chozo]

this means all ppl on all realms besides the 50 ppl per realm go like „such shit“. i would call that 90% of the player base or more.

so, what do you think for how long „your groups“ can handle this ? lets say by your own you can handle this forever. but do you really think you can still play WoW by your own, when x millions (90% player base) are pissed and also have another mindset ? half of them leave. other half will be even more become focused on that shit. and in the end, when Blizzard realizes the game is it no longer worth, just for some stupids still here (even when they hate it) and also your 50 ppl, they shut down the servers (the theoretically extreme). then you also can no longer play with your 50 ppl. because even when you „dont care“ Covenant stuff and when you „dont care“ playing or relying on other ppl in a mmorpg (lol), well you can not play without running servers.

what i wanna say: your mindset is rather short thought and it will bring you nowhere. nor is it realistic to hold this up in reality.

It's nice that you have to pull made-up statistics (lmao 90% of the playerbase) to back up your claims. Here's more statistics from the same source you cited: 90% of the playerbase doesn't even go to Mythic Dungeons nor raid beyond LFR, so the problems with player toxicity and gatekeeping don't even reach them.

I have been playing with "my people" since Legion's beginning. It has been working fine. People love my "chill run" groups. My mindset works for me and my friends. Find one that works for you - We aren't responsible for your appreciation of World of Warcraft.

If Blizzard ever close the servers because of what you said (lol), then it means WoW deserved to die anyway - the playerbase was tainted.

[Krakan]

OR

This is an RPG, you should have to make meaningful choices in an RPG. If you want to play the best, you have to accept your favorite might not be that. You can't always have what you want AND what is best

Is this a meaningful choice? Talents have always been count the number if mobs your dpsing and thus seems no more in depth then that.

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It kinda seems like you have two views on the system...

One is a gameplay first view that sees this as terrible because let's be honest in terms of game okay it is

The other is a story based view... a story based view were in a game the main plot for the past two years ended with the antagonist screaming they were evil for no reason and that she hated the people she tricked into dying for her TO THEM right after pulling shadow magic out of her ass and just before turning into a fart cloud to escape...

Saying you play wow for the story line is in par with saying you watch a porno for the plot...

[klogaroth]

If having choices that stick matters so much, why are soulbinds swappable? Where are the threads of people campaigning for soulbinds to be binding? The reason we don't see this is that soulbinds seem to be their proposed way to keep things balanced, which means they have to be swappable, because if they aren't the system breaks down when someone does more than one type of content, or plays more than one spec. If the solution to having a problem with a system is to make a new system to counter the first system, well....then you see how we get BFA. Systems on systems on systems each one designed to dodge having to fix the fundamental problems with the underlying systems.

That soulbinds are swappable is an admission that covenants really should be as well.

This whole argument people have about it being odd to swap is balls, because you can actually swap as it's currently planned. You just wouldn't be able to go back without a full re-grind. You're not actually bound to a covenant, it's just a huge pain in the ass to change.

Just make the Shadowlands rental power be a standalone thing, and the story choice actually stick and matter.

Also while we're at it your covenant should determine your world pvp faction in the Shadowlands.

[Bigbazz]

95% of MMO-Champ Armchair strategists aren't pushing 20+ keys for M+.

95% of MMO-Champ Armchair strategists aren't pushing Mythic raiding as cutting edge, hardcore raiders looking to be in the top 10 world rankings.

95% of MMO-Champ Armchair strategists aren't past 2k in Arena/Rated BG ratings.

All the toxic doomsaying makes me wonder why they even bother playing this game? I'm willing to bet if you search their post history, have they been complaining about every god damned thing they possibly can?

I run mythic dungeons. I'd love to run mythic raiding in SL, but I'm not gonna min-max the shit out of the covenents and soulbinds -- I like my toon to be badass looking while I'm stomping on baddies.

95% of MMO-Champ Armchair strategists aren't getting paid to play the game, so don't act like it's a job or a chore. If it's either, it's best to find something else to do until yo feel it isn't.

I'm late to the party but I think this is besides the point. WoW is a game where nobody will play with you if they are slightly inconvenienced, unless through social channels. The top end players will be forced to pick the best ones, the rest will get hassled if they don't. If they are good enough that it matters, then it will matter enough to negatively impact your chances in pug playing.

How much depends, but permanent choices that have a big effect on performance shouldn't be part of the game.

[Malix Farwin]

I was told i would be able to choose w/e azerite traits i wanted but ended up being forced into specific ones because not only were they more optimal but fixed spec/class issues. I was told i would be able to use any essences but was again forced into specific ones, same with corruption. Now with all this experience doing exactly the opposite of what Blizzard said i could do happening you expect me to believe that i actually have a choice between what covenants i want to pick? Yea okay...

[Hitei]

If having choices that stick matters so much, why are soulbinds swappable? Where are the threads of people campaigning for soulbinds to be binding? The reason we don't see this is that soulbinds seem to be their proposed way to keep things balanced, which means they have to be swappable, because if they aren't the system breaks down when someone does more than one type of content, or plays more than one spec. If the solution to having a problem with a system is to make a new system to counter the first system, well....then you see how we get BFA. Systems on systems on systems each one designed to dodge having to fix the fundamental problems with the underlying systems.

That soulbinds are swappable is an admission that covenants really should be as well.

Talents are also swappable, that is not an admission that you need to be able to swap your class in rested areas as well.

I was told i would be able to choose w/e azerite traits i wanted but ended up being forced into specific ones because not only were they more optimal but fixed spec/class issues. I was told i would be able to use any essences but was again forced into specific ones, same with corruption. Now all this exp you expect me to believe that i actually have a choice between what covenants i want to pick? Yea okay...

That's what you get when you have a shitty community that's obsessed with needless and arbitrary optimization. There's no real reason any of those systems couldn't be freely chosen, except that people don't want them to be. Look at classes, they have the exact same problem (i.e. there are very good classes in an expansion/patch, and very "bad" classes) yet the community at large has simply decided to ignore that disparity.

Class populations don't wildly fluctuate with each expansion or patch. When monks or warlocks are very strong, and paladins are bad, you don't suddenly have 90% of DPS playing monks and warlocks and 0% choosing paladins. Because players just get over the fact that they are playing something other than the optimal class, and play what they want to play. Top 10 guilds class stack, a handful of low-end players imitate that, and the other 99.99% of players in the game pick a class they want to play and play it.

That druids are objective garbage in vanilla hasn't stopped 8%+ of players from picking them in classic. Yet as was mentioned above, people will needlessly obsess over shit like world buffs even in content that's a complete pushover. And that blood elves were non-optimal in most content for a very long time hasn't stopped them from being the most played in the game for most of its lifespan, and far and away the most played Horde race.

The fact is, all any of these systems need to work fine as free choice is for people to stop being retarded and understand that no part of the game is balanced around pure optimization, and that they can just choose what they want and play the game, like they do every single patch of every single expansion with classes and races.

[DemonDays]

It's not about forcing it on others. It's agreeing with the decision that we should have to make meaningful or tough decisions. I find stuff like this good for games. I don't agree that a player should be able to be optimal at every aspect of a game. If you want to be optimal at raiding, being less optimal at something else is a fair trade off.

Because it's such good design to tie both DPS, utility, questing experience, lore and transmog to a single choice.

I should be choosing Night Fae because it looks like the most fun ability for my Class. I mean. DPSing and playing my Class is 90% of what I do in this game. So surely I should just choose Night Fae.

Oh wait. I'm a Death Knight. Fairy armour and a fairy night elf questing experience doesn't suit my character at all.

Guess I'm fucked then hey.

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There is a HUGE distinction between the original azerite system and covenants. Covenants you literally have 4 choices for your spec, you want to get technical I suppose you could say 12 for most classes based on spec.
There were dozens of azerite traits that had to be relearned every time you got a better piece of gear. There's no "system" to fix. At the worst it might take a patch or two to get balance further in line with what 99% of the player base will be good with.

"A patch or two". Jesus titty fucking christ. This is the reason you people get labelled fanboys. Because you just bend over and "accept" things as they are. Why should we wait until 9.2 for the system to be functioning well? The expansion is two thirds of the way through by that point.

For the love of god. This is exactly why Covenants will fail. Blizzard is GOD AWFUL at balancing.

Talents - Most talents rows have a talent chosen by 90% of players on that row. The balance here is atrocious.
Essences - LOL. Horribly balanced.
Corruption - No comment.
Legiondaries - Horribly unbalanced mess.


You're going to try and tell me they're going to balance 4 different abilities which have to also be balanced within 3-4 specs per class?

Laughable.

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Talents are also swappable, that is not an admission that you need to be able to swap your class in rested areas as well.

I always love this pathetic argument.

Your Class and Race is something that is locked and part of your character.

Last time I checked our character was choosing to "support" a Covenant/Faction in game and thus "learning" their abilities.



These things are not even remotely the same. One you choose at the character creation screen that has been carried with you for 15 years. One is a tacked on end game system that will be DELETED when the expansion ends.

[Hitei]

Your Class and Race is something that is locked and part of your character.

Last time I checked our character was choosing to "support" a Covenant/Faction in game and thus "learning" their abilities.

These things are not even remotely the same. One you choose at the character creation screen that has been carried with you for 15 years. One is a tacked on end game system that will be DELETED when the expansion ends.

I'm not sure you even understand what was being argued, but alright.

You might have a point if, you know, you were actually locked to it and forced to play it for 15 years, rather than alts having always been a thing. But I guess if you want to pretend lack of permanence and being expansion specific somehow makes a multi-faceted choice involving gameplay and power impact toTaLly nOt ThE sAme as a multi-faceted choice involving gameplay and power impact, be my guest.

That's not going to change the fact that they are similar choices, and that there are objectively wrong choices for both if you look at things from the perspective of power optimization.

[Soon-TM]

Split raiding will also be stronger than ever.

Which is funny af, since Ion said at some point that he really disliked the whole idea of split raiding. Maybe he changed his mind...

[DemonDays]

I'm not sure you even understand what was being argued, but alright.

You might have a point if, you know, you were actually locked to it and forced to play it for 15 years, rather than alts having always been a thing. But I guess if you want to pretend lack of permanence and being expansion specific somehow makes a multi-faceted choice involving gameplay and power impact toTaLly nOt ThE sAme as a multi-faceted choice involving gameplay and power impact, be my guest.

That's not going to change the fact that they are similar choices, and that there are objectively wrong choices for both if you look at things from the perspective of power optimization.

Your argument might hold some weight if you were only comparing yourself to other people within your own Class. If it was a "class based" choice.

But it's not is it?

There are 4 choices for each class. But the same ability is given to each spec within each class and has to be balanced appropriately for all 3-4 specs. Then add on to that fact that there is also a secondary utility ability that are incredibly unbalanced and by all reports are more likely going to be the defining factor.


A bird steward that gives me a potion that clears poisons or a literal fucking teleport? LOL. Night Fae and Venthyr utility abilities are grossly unbalanced and no amount of "adjusting" will make them not so. Movement abilities are king.


Also no comment on the system being completely and utterly deleted in 2 years? LMFAO. "IMPORTANT CHOICE THAT IS EXACTLY LIKE CHOOSING A RACE AND CLASS"

God damn son maybe Blizz should give us a free CLASS CHANGE when Shadowlands is finished?

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Which is funny af, since Ion said at some point that he really disliked the whole idea of split raiding. Maybe he changed his mind...

You're also likely going to see people create a PvP and PvE character of the exact same class.

You know, because there are literally Covenant abilities that almost say "pick this for PvP but it will be useless in PvE" in their ability descriptions.

This is without even talking about the wildly unbalanced Venthyr teleport and Night Fae sprint+blink.

[klogaroth]

There is a difference between picking a class at level one and picking a covenant potentially a decade and a half later. By the sounds of the proposed effort to change covenant, you might as well re-roll to a brand new character if ever you're in the situation of wanting to go back and forth between two.

This puts you in the position where for some classes you'd be better off having an alt of the same class than playing your main's offspecs or taking your main to different content. Unless soulbinds water down the system so much that every ability ends up doing basically the same thing anyway, but with different coloured animations. If soulbinds do counter the covenant system to that degree, just have one set of abilities and let us pick red, blue, green, and purple. It'll save a lot of time going round the houses to get to the same place.

It's early legion legendaries all over again. Except this time instead of RNG, it's your own hand that picked the wrong option, or tied you to a particular spec.

Different versions of the same class has been tried before. Priests and paladins with different class spells based on race. There's a reason we don't see that any more. It doesn't work very well for the type of game wow is.

[Hitei]

Your argument might hold some weight if you were only comparing yourself to other people within your own Class. If it was a "class based" choice.

But it's not is it?

There are 4 choices for each class. But the same ability is given to each spec within each class and has to be balanced appropriately for all 3-4 specs.

I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make here. In a choice between classes you are comparing the various potential classes. In a choice between covenants, you are comparing the various covenants. The covenant choice being a level down doesn't change the mechanics of the choice. In one you have a power-flavor/aesthetics-story-gameplay choice that makes you better or worse than people who choose another choice. The the other you have a power-flavor/aesthetics-story-gameplay choice that makes you better or worse than people who choose another choice.

That the second choice is within a class, if anything, makes the comparative impact of it less. Because someone playing current fire mage and picking a "bad" covenant is still probably going to perform better or in line than someone picking WW and picking a "good" covenant. An absolute minimum fire mage parse still lands in the average range for WW.

Then add on to that fact that there is also a secondary utility ability that are incredibly unbalanced and by all reports are more likely going to be the defining factor.


A bird steward that gives me a potion that clears poisons or a literal fucking teleport? LOL


Night Fae and Venthyr utility abilities are grossly unbalanced and no amount of "adjusting" will make them not so. Movement abilities are king.

Now you are just undermining your own argument by pointing out that the relative power of the class based ability isn't even defining, because there are secondary factors like general covenant ability and soulbind options. Yes, that is part of the point. There are many factors to the choice, that is what makes it interesting. What resto druid is going to give a shit about a 60s CD blink with a cast time when they can take a literal beacon of light talent? Kyrian priests get a 50% movement speed baked into their kyrian active. A 90s CD 30% sprint might be very attractive to low movement classes, but it's significantly less attractive to people who already have a lot of mobility.