Why is Theramore seen as unjustified?

[mickybrighteyes]

Correct, but we're looking for more around Legion-ish times. We know some of the Blood Elves got out right away. That doesn't prove no more got out later.

That's about it though. Any elves that made it to the violet hold disappear in plot hole limbo... no evidence of being freed.

But just because nameless NPCs are never mentioned again, doesn't mean they aren't handled.

This is my original point... technically. There is nothing to say what happened. trying to fill the gap with an assumed ending serves little except to showcase someone's bias.

And you're right - And Jaina was ousted from that council for her actions. It's how Khadgar and the remaining council got control of the city. It's why it's safe to assume the prisoners were let free after the fact, given that the council SPECIFICALLY ousted her over that action, it would seem VERY strange for them to keep the prisoners she sent there. But hey, context is hard to get amirite.

Jaina wasn't ousted. She left.... of her own accord.She said she would leave if the council allowed the horde back into Dalaran, council voted in favor of letting the horde back in and so she left.

One might call that a repercussion or something... :think:

Not really a repercussion when she did it voluntarily as part of a tantrum.

[TheRevenantHero]

She literally says, in the quests leading up to the Divine Bell scenario, that Dalaran is a bastion and a neutral city. She literally says, immediately after the purge, that the King no longer has anything to worry about, because and I quote:




Actually, false.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Jaina_Proudmoore#War_Crimes

She WAS in fact leader, and thus acting authority. The council told her she must be destined to BECOME leader in Rhonin's place.

which means she became leader long after the Purge and therefore had no authority at the time. Thank you for pointing that out yourself. Also, the city of Dalaran itself is neutral but at the time, she was not.

She never should have become leader. She deserved to get locked up in the Violet Hold herself for the atrocity she committed with the Purge. But once again, the writers never have Alliance lore characters answer for their crimes. Ever.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

When the questline was active, she walked around Dalaran with her water elementals and started killing fleeing blood elves. But your responses are starting to show me there is no point in debating this with you because you will never see a point past your own so I just won't respond anymore.

non canon, it's only sunreavers that fight back.

Dave Kosak (Game Designer)
To be fair Jaina was teleporting Sunreavers into the Violet Hold. She (and Alliance players) only fight the ones who are fighting back.

There are some Easter eggs in that quest - Jaina teleports Horde players to the Violet Hold if she runs across them. When they try to escape, they have to fight what's-his-name in the courtyard outside, where he attacks them with all the holograms of the bosses from the Lich King weekly raid quests.

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...on_sunreavers/

[mickybrighteyes]

which means she became leader long after the Purge and therefore had no authority at the time. Thank you for pointing that out yourself. Also, the city of Dalaran itself is neutral but at the time, she was not.

She never should have become leader. She deserved to get locked up in the Violet Hold herself for the atrocity she committed with the Purge. But once again, the writers never have Alliance lore characters answer for their crimes. Ever.

you know damn well Jaina was put at the head of the council of six because Khadgar had a vision and this was sometime around the start of MoP after Theramore fell.

The problem is that Fleugen started arguing that she had more authority than she did and making it seem like she was justified in that power... which isn't the case and she was blatantly abusing her authority (also the council of six had no real presence in the events because /reasons i.e. not explained).

[TheRevenantHero]

you know damn well Jaina was put at the head of the council of six because Khadgar had a vision and this was sometime around the start of MoP after Theramore fell.

The problem is that Fleugen started arguing that she had more authority than she did and making it seem like she was justified in that power... which isn't the case and she was blatantly abusing her authority (also the council of six had no real presence in the events because /reasons i.e. not explained).

Regardless of who has authority, attacking civilians and using collective punishment are both war crimes.

[mickybrighteyes]

non canon, it's only sunreavers that fight back.

to be fair the only npc's running around in Jaina's path are displaced Sunreavers

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...on_sunreavers/

Speaking as a horde player who's done the scenario on multiple characters and TRIED getting the teleport thing to happen... I've not seen it.

[TheRevenantHero]

non canon, it's only sunreavers that fight back.


https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...on_sunreavers/

What a surprise. Kosak spewing nonsense without actually fucking explaining anything.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

to be fair the only npc's running around in Jaina's path are displaced Sunreavers



Speaking as a horde player who's done the scenario on multiple characters and TRIED getting the teleport thing to happen... I've not seen it.

pretty sure they said some where else that it was a bug that i guess they never fixed. but either way as far as canon goes she's not killing fleeing blood elfs.

- - - Updated - - -

What a surprise. Kosak spewing nonsense without actually fucking explaining anything.

dev's kinda get to do that and said nonsense they spew is the canon so not much sense bickering about it.

[mickybrighteyes]

pretty sure they said some where else that it was a bug that i guess they never fixed. but either way as far as canon goes she's not killing fleeing blood elfs.

People keep saying this. I say if that's the case... the elementals wouldn't be there.


Cause as it stands... the scenario has always had the Displaced Sunreavers (aka "fleeing bloodelves") getting killed as they run around in the streets.


This is also another point for how there is this bias in how the factions are viewed. Alliance it's always seen in the best possible light. Even to the point that patrolling the streets and seen killing npc's is "a bug" or not what it looks like

[TheRevenantHero]

pretty sure they said some where else that it was a bug that i guess they never fixed. but either way as far as canon goes she's not killing fleeing blood elfs.

- - - Updated - - -



dev's kinda get to do that and said nonsense they spew is the canon so not much sense bickering about it.

Except what he said isn't true. As micky said above, I have never once had that happen to me on every character I ran through it. It's likely him being an idiot as usual and completely making shit up.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

People keep saying this. I say if that's the case... the elementals wouldn't be there.


Cause as it stands... the scenario has always had the Displaced Sunreavers (aka "fleeing bloodelves") getting killed as they run around in the streets.


This is also another point for how there is this bias in how the factions are viewed. Alliance it's always seen in the best possible light. Even to the point that patrolling the streets and seen killing npc's is "a bug" or not what it looks like

Except what he said isn't true. As micky said above, I have never once had that happen to me on every character I ran through it. It's likely him being an idiot as usual and completely making shit up.

Just because you see something different in game doesn't make it canon and the dev's flatly over ride any head canon any one wants to make unless later canon changes it.

[mickybrighteyes]

Just because you see something different in game doesn't make it canon and the dev's flatly over ride any head canon any one wants to make unless later canon changes it.

I'm not sure Dave's post on that reddit really counts for what you want to say. Yes Jaina had a teleport skill but fact is she had other skills that seemed to take priority and this argument IF that post is what you want to use really just goes to prove my other point on faction bias.

[TheRevenantHero]

Oh woops, that totally is much later. That explains a bit of why I'm confused here.

But I digress:

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Jaina_Proudmoore#Landfall

If she acts towards neutral goals, she's neutral. She was almost 100% purely neutral up to MoP. She really wasn't an Alliance Hero at all up until the Purge. Prior to that, the worst thing she did was allow Theramore to be used by the Alliance - Which, yes, meant their military was landing there since Garrosh decided war with the Alliance was a main goal.



You still haven't proven anything you've said about the purge is true though. It's equally as muddled as you claim all the Horde stuff is supposed to be.

I'm not going to repeat myself. You keep spouting headcanon about the Sunreavers escaping the Violet Hold but nothing in the lore supports it.

Also, as soon as she made Theramore an Alliance naval base, she stopped being neutral. She was affiliated with the Alliance at that point because she was actively supporting them. Her comments about Dalaran remaining neutral has NOTHING to do with her OWN neutrality.

[TheRevenantHero]

Just because you see something different in game doesn't make it canon and the dev's flatly over ride any head canon any one wants to make unless later canon changes it.

Except he's not talking about what is or isn't canon. He simply rambled something stupid game mechanics without actually explaining anything from a lore prespective.

[Feanoro]

Let me save everyone some time by highlighting something here.

But your responses are starting to show me there is no point in debating this with you because you will never see a point past your own so I just won't respond anymore.

This or similar phrases are what TRH says every time someone doesn't agree 100%, and especially if you're providing proof that he/she is wrong. Please don't just take my word for it, go through post history. Your options are agree or be angrily told there will be no conversation because you're not worth talking to.

[mickybrighteyes]

He says exactly what everyone else has been saying all along together with it though. The first line:

yes, she was casting teleport. That wasn't her only spell nor the only thing she was doing.

[TheRevenantHero]

Let me save everyone some time by highlighting something here.



This or similar phrases are what TRH says every time someone doesn't agree 100%, and especially if you're providing proof that he/she is wrong. Please don't just take my word for it, go through post history. Your options are agree or be angrily told there will be no conversation because you're not worth talking to.

You're literally spouting out your headcanon about the Sunreavers being released as canon when it absolutely isn't. This isn't just an "I don't agree with you" situation. You're just flat wrong.

[mickybrighteyes]

You're literally spouting out your headcanon about the Sunreavers being released as canon when it absolutely isn't. This isn't just an "I don't agree with you" situation. You're just flat wrong.

You might want to double check posters there.

[Minikin]

Was gonna respond but within like 2 posts this thread went to shit.

That's not including the already goofy original post.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'm not sure Dave's post on that reddit really counts for what you want to say. Yes Jaina had a teleport skill but fact is she had other skills that seemed to take priority and this argument IF that post is what you want to use really just goes to prove my other point on faction bias.

A Dev posting under a Dev tag absolutely counts, maybe if it was solely a personal account it wouldn't but when you have that your the Dev plated officially it's and are answer lore questions it's official.

and a of course there's Bias but in this case it's likely character bias and not faction bias as they likely didn't want jiana to be known for that kind of thing.