Why is Theramore seen as unjustified?

[Feanoro]

You don't get how this works do you? what you see in game isn't always canon this isn't/wasn't a new thing. he doesn't have to lie to make the alliance look better he's one of the people who make the story he literally gets to say what does and does not happen.

you can bitch and moan till the cows come home but your still wrong as he literally gets to pick whats right and he proves you wrong.

Remember Rule #3 of Horde Posting here: "Blizzard employees speak with the voice of God, unless it makes the Horde look bad, disproves Horde talking points, or a Horde poster disagrees with them."

[TheRevenantHero]

Its because conversations about the Alliance are never constructive because they're just Horde players dogpiling on the same points.



Soon the essay-writers will arrive and it will end up like every other thread concerning the Alliance and their wrongdoings lol. I mean the fact that people still say that Alliance players think the Alliance have never done anything evil is very lol.


You can still be the good faction whilst committing some wrongs, which the current Alliance is. No Alliance player has ever disputed this. I'm sure.

This entire thread has proved Alliance fans will go to incredible stretches to justify heinous actions committed by the Alliance or they will wave it away with "They were acting alone" but will never accept that answer for Horde characters.

[Soon-TM]

You can still be the good faction whilst committing some wrongs, which the current Alliance is. No Alliance player has ever disputed this. I'm sure.

I am having a real hard time trying to find that brand of Ally fans in these boards. The average Ally fans in these boards defend any sketchy !@#$ the Alliance might have been involved at, or simply waltz over it and proceed with their righteous speech. In that regard, they are almost as insufferable as some Sylvanas fans.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Did we read the same thing? Because he talked about Jaina teleporting NPCs and that there's an Easter Egg where she will allegedly teleport players too(which I have never ever seen happen).

I don't know if you actually read it or just suck your head in the sand to hold onto your head canon so ill quote it again.

To be fair Jaina was teleporting Sunreavers into the Violet Hold. She (and Alliance players) only fight the ones who are fighting back.

no mention of any game mechanics just a statement of what happens during the purge and said statement flatly disproves any idea of her killing fleeing blood elf's and given that he's one of the people who say what the story actually is he prove's any head canon you want to hold onto wrong.

[mickybrighteyes]

No it doesn't say teleporting it all she did but that's not the important part its the part where he says he only fights blood elf's fighting back.

I'll take that with about the same grain of salt as when the devs said Falstad was dead...

this comptly over rights the idea that she's killing fleeing blood elf's just trying to get away. it pretty much just means she was indeeding killing blood elf's but not the blood elf's just trying to get out but the blood elf's trying to resist arrest. as to builds/gameplay stuff like her flag that's not really relevant to the lore and is only there for game reasons so you can't say go take a selfi with her while she's on walking about.

That seems more like they shouldn't have her in the area then.... also another weird excuse to say what we see isn't what happened...

as to how shes portrayed killing people trying to resist isn't really the same as killing people trying to get away so it makes sense that they'ed want one and not the other.

Doesn't matter since her forces then promptly ordered the killing/removal of escape routes upon being tasked out...

[Sharby]

I am having a real hard time trying to find that brand of Ally fans in these boards. The average Ally fans in these boards defend any sketchy !@#$ the Alliance might have been involved at, or simply waltz over it and proceed with their righteous speech. In that regard, they are almost as insufferable as some Sylvanas fans.

I've yet to see it but I don't frequent lore forums for the reasons in my previous post.


I'd imagine this may occur because bringing up the Alliance's faults in an attempt to dilute their heroic image is pretty pointless as in the grand scheme of things the actions of the Horde dwarf them by quite a staggering amount. So no matter what the Alliance still ends up being largely good.

[Thage]

I am having a real hard time trying to find that brand of Ally fans in these boards. The average Ally fans in these boards defend any sketchy !@#$ the Alliance might have been involved at, or simply waltz over it and proceed with their righteous speech. In that regard, they are almost as insufferable as some Sylvanas fans.

Honestly, I don't think I've met an actual Alliance fan who thinks Taurajo was kosher. The game itself does a lot of work to paint Hawthorne out as incompetent and reckless, going balls-first on bad intel without so much as bothering to double-check it, because he was worried about looking bad to High Command, and his incompetence resulted in a string of massive blunders that feel like either an allusion to the War on Terror or, more likely, the Crusades, especially with using a legion of conscripts drafted from the Stockades (sure, they're all allegedly nonviolent offenders, but with the Stockades being synonymous at this point for prison riots, who would have seriously thought sending in criminal conscripts who'd gotten a taste for anarchy with little if any supervision would be a good idea?).

The Purge, similarly, has been pretty unambiguously presented as a first-class fuck-up by Jaina and the Silver Covenant, especially because it scuttled talks between Varian and Lor'themar (who was close to his breaking point with the Horde not least because Garrosh kept throwing the blood elves under the bus when he pulled shady shit, letting the Alliance think select bad actors were representative of the blood elves at large) and because, by all accounts, she held most Sunreavers without trial and it wasn't until Legion that many of them made good their escape.

[Saltysquidoon]

I'd imagine this may occur because bringing up the Alliance's faults in an attempt to dilute their heroic image is pretty pointless as in the grand scheme of things the actions of the Horde dwarf them by quite a staggering amount. So no matter what the Alliance still ends up being largely good.

I feel like people just refuse to accept the context that when you have the horde written as the unironic obligate villains in the first two games of the series and the alliance are the obligate heroes, you just aren't starting from zero.

Honestly, I don't think I've met an actual Alliance fan who thinks Taurajo was kosher.

People get drawn into 'defending' it when horde fans try to make a bad faith false equivalence between Taurajo and *insert horde atrocity of the patch* in a vain attempt to reconcile being the butt of the same murder-dictator storyline twice.
I mean this thread is a pretty good example.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I'll take that with about the same grain of salt as when the devs said Falstad was dead...

it's just kinda how wow works something's canon until its changed but this hasn't been changed and likely wont be as no one cares about the purge so tis just the canon for now.

That seems more like they shouldn't have her in the area then.... also another weird excuse to say what we see isn't what happened...

I mean its not the first or last time it's been the case just look at Chronicles making raid clears non canon for one faction or another thus making any faction based lore in said raid non canon or classic quest mobs being brought back to life and reused in cata quest.

Doesn't matter since her forces then promptly ordered the killing/removal of escape routes upon being tasked out...

Of course it still matters it's the difference between a cop shooting at some on firing on them and some one unarmed fleeing.

[mickybrighteyes]

it's just kinda how wow works something's canon until its changed but this hasn't be changed and likely one be as no one cares about the purge so tis just the canon for now.

I think you're taking an off the cuff remark and asserting it as canon.

I mean its not the first or last time it's been the case just look at Chronicles making raid clears non canon for one faction or another thus making any faction based lore in said raid non canon or classic quest mobs being brought back to life and reused in cata quest.

But even then that's still a book/comic or the actual in game material as basic for reasoning.

[Rendark]

If the horde was smart they would be using the Blight way more. Should have used it on Theramore instead of the manabomb.

[Jastall]

And yet, there's several quests that make it clear that Theramore was directly supporting the Alliance, in the form of both supplies and reinforcements. It must be convenient for Blizzard to be able to backpedal in quick QA sessions.

The point isn't that Theramore was an aggressor. It's that Jaina loved to talk big about her (and by extension, Theramore's) neutrality until the moment she had the opportunity to aid the Alliance. It was the same when she was in charge of Dalaran.

In case it's unclear, I'm not arguing in favour of the use of the mana bomb, only Theramore's validity as a target.

This kind of inconsistency is typical of Cataclysm, really. Same writing that brought us Garrosh personally executing a general that used a nuke then ends on the same guy using a nuke himself. Jaina says or does nothing prior or even into Tides of War that suggests she would purposefully break the peace she sacrificed her father for and strove towards ever since, but she still does it because reasons. They just had her act completely out of character offscreen, then Tides of War itself swung the pendulum back and seemed to act as if Garrosh attacked Theramore for the sheer lulz of it. It's just terrible writing all around.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I think you're taking an off the cuff remark and asserting it as canon.

It's a lore dev answer questions about the lore it's not like it's something just blurted out out when something unrelated was being talked about.

But even then that's still a book/comic or the actual in game material as basic for reasoning.

ya there are more concrete sources of lore but that doesn't make what the dev's say on forums under official dev tags any less legitimate unless counteracted. around the time of Mop this was pretty common with even things like the the break up of orcs who sided with garrosh being posted on one forum or another and not in a piece of media.

- - - Updated - - -

In this case though, it's a minor difference.

Jaina tells Aethas to get the Sunreavers out of Dalaran. This is the important bit that's missing. Aethas refuses, Jaina then goes on the Purge where she cuts off escape routes from the city and imprisons Sunreavers, attacking those who resist.

It seems odd that she would cut off escape routes from the city. The intent is to get the Sunreavers out of the city, isn't it? Why is fleeing a problem? That's why the fleeing vs. resisting thing matters - If she is killing fleeing citizens and cutting off their escape routes (she was cutting off the escape routes in the quests, that's not in question), then she never intended to just let the Sunreavers leave, and that makes the Purge significantly worse in intention. She intended to imprison or kill all Sunreavers.

It's like a cop handcuffing you to a weighted bar on the ground, then telling you to put your hands up and either imprisoning you when you somehow manage it, or shooting you when you can't in that case.

The purge wasn't just about ejecting sunreavers they were being locked up for there betrayal and likely questioned to see if there were more spys, but what they did while they had them was never expounded upon. they could have easily just ported them out of dal instead of keeping them in the violent hold.

and no it wouldn't be like the cops handcuffing you and then giving you orders. It's the equivalent of being trapped in an alley with no way out when a cop is trying to arrest you and then either going peacefully or attacking the cop. if you tried to go peacefully and the cop still shot you that's alot worse then attacking them first. and in this case they don't literally have to go peacefully as jiana could just port them so it's more so about how she would respond instead of what you did.

[mickybrighteyes]

It's a lore dev answer questions about the lore it's not like it's something just blurted out out when something unrelated was being talked about.

Because Metzen and Afrasiabi have proven to make mistakes on their own lore, interview questions, reddit posts... and infamaous Q&A sessions make for poor material to judge canon. The books, comics and released game content have more eyes checking things over.

Now, that's all well and good, but I think when one of the creative directors gets caught in an interview making verified mistakes it then leads to questioning any interview remarks. This is why I tend to disregard reddit posts and rank them lower than an AMA or a Q&A board in a more official setting. The books, comics and released game details are also dev answers and held to higher standards than an single remark.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Because Metzen and Afrasiabi have proven to make mistakes on their own lore, interview questions, reddit posts... and infamaous Q&A sessions make for poor material to judge canon. The books, comics and released game content have more eyes checking things over.

Now, that's all well and good, but I think when one of the creative directors gets caught in an interview making verified mistakes it then leads to questioning any interview remarks. This is why I tend to disregard reddit posts and rank them lower than an AMA or a Q&A board in a more official setting. The books, comics and released game details are also dev answers and held to higher standards than an single remark.

They make mistakes in there own lore in game and in books as well so that’s not really a metric to say what’s right and what’s wrong. Just look at before the storm for an example with genn having a tail.

Truth is when it comes to wow no source of lore is concrete as they really don’t put to much time into making sure every thing matches up and any thing from ingame to the books can be wrong so it’s best to just take most things at the same value until it’s changed/proven wrong.

[mickybrighteyes]

They make mistakes in there own lore in game and in books as well so that’s not really a metric to say what’s right and what’s wrong. Just look at before the storm for an example with genn having a tail.

Truth is when it comes to wow no source of lore is concrete as they really don’t put to much time into making sure every thing matches up and any thing from ingame to the books can be wrong so it’s best to just take most things at the same value until it’s changed/proven wrong.

Yes but those options still have more strict requirements to pass before reaching the public than a post...

[Mayia]

Cowardly sneak attacks are always seen as unjustified/unjust.
He build up expectations to assault the city in honorable combat then withdrew and bombed them, after making the enemy think they were going to partake in honorable combat, it also escalate any engagement in the future because the alliance don't know if the horde would pull dirty tricks forcing the alliance to counter.. and partake in their own dirty tricks devolving the war into harsher forms of combat.

Previously Horde met alliance on the open battlefield and they used force to beat force, if you get cheated of that you'll be upset, and he made sure less honorable combat would follow from both sides for the rest of the conflict.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Yes but those options still have more strict requirements to pass before reaching the public than a post...

and even with those requirements they let glaring issues through on par with any other QA or forum flop so its not like they are any more valid then any other posting of lore when it comes to being error free. if any thing there less valid as you would think more people would go over say a book before it was published but they still all missed these huge errors.

[tristannarutofan]

Blizzard had pretty much confirmed that the barrens conflict was started by North watch and co so I dont really see how it is a war crime

Jaina was pouring in legions of soldiers, steamtanks and ballista, burns down Taurajo and attacks the great gate, then garrosh has had enough, nukes it and suddenly it’s a war crime. «Innocents died». Innocents don’t matter in wow. There is a world quest where you run over like a thousand goblins with a dark iron golem and its seen as funny and hilarious

And Im not asking for a pissing contest about how much worse the horde has done, I am asking why its seen as a warcrime and not a legitimate military target *cough*

1) using certaintypes of weapons are considered war crimes
2)generally attacking leadership with no chance of surrender are.
3) theramore was not just a military base but civilian town as well.
4 garrosh is literally a nazi who started the war. If u dont want the local military of rival countries at your doorstep causing trouble maybe u dont start a war.
Its like blaming french revolutionaries for nazis getting killed on d day.
5)if u actually read the quests the alliance removed the civilians from taurajo. The captain fucked up and ACCIDENTALLY sent them into unsafe terroritory

But no accidentally getting ppl killed is not the same as intentionally nuking ppl for fighting back in a war u started

[mickybrighteyes]

and even with those requirements they let glaring issues through on par with any other QA or forum flop so its not like they are any more valid then any other posting of lore when it comes to being error free. if any thing there less valid as you would think more people would go over say a book before it was published but they still all missed these huge errors.

This is going to come down to either more eyes and more devs is better or such and such dev's PoV takes priority....

The side that has more layers of QA checking imo should hold priority over an unfiltered response. But that's my opinion. So a single post from a random unofficial thread? Yeah that's WAY low on the pecking order IMO. below official QnA. Below interview with reporter even.