Why is Theramore seen as unjustified?

[TheFirstOnes]

It's only unjustified because Garrosh decided to torture and publicly slaughter the innocents of Theramore post-bomb. Oh, and he also bombed it mostly without warning. Only Baine had the warn Jaina about it, and he did it outside of Garrosh's command.

The attack itself was mostly justified, because of the situation at the Barrens. Intention or not, what happened there is how it happened. The attack was used as a counter to push the Alliance out of Kalimdor because of their shit at the Barrens.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

But it wasn't, or at least, it could have not been - At least, in one light it could.

As mentioned, when Jaina first confronts Aethas, she tells him to take the Sunreavers and leave. If he had complied then, which don't get me wrong I'm not saying he should have -, but IF he had complied then and the Sunreavers left there would have been no purge, presumably.

But that's not what the purge was about, you might say. That's the point. Jaina set Aethas a task she knew he could not possibly complete. Even if he complied and said he would try, that wouldn't work, she would demand it done now. And when people who have lived there for thousands of years inevitably resisted (because why wouldn't they, it's their home!), she would lock them up and demand them questioned for their part in the theft. The point was to show Jaina was beyond the point of reasonability in the Purge. Even if the Sunreavers did everything right, they would not be trusted again. Jaina had thrown her support with the Alliance, even if she hadn't officially announced such yet - And as such, she felt she needed to get to the bottom of the betrayal. That coupled with the lack of reasonability was dangerous. At that point, resisting was the option that kept the Blood Elves free, and that's what they did.

It does paint a much darker picture when you view it from the idea that she never intended to let the Sunreavers leave, even if she did initially offer them the chance to.

ah i must have miss remembered then. In that case id assume she would have let aethas port people out if he left but because he didn't she just wanted them all locked up for what ever reason. doesn't really make sense why she wouldn't port them out of dal afterwords but she seemed to keep them until legion for some reason.

[TriggeredKid]

it's fitting to have someone with a Hillary profile picture think the bombing of theramore is justifiable

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This is going to come down to either more eyes and more devs is better or such and such dev's PoV takes priority....

The side that has more layers of QA checking imo should hold priority over an unfiltered response. But that's my opinion. So a single post from a random unofficial thread? Yeah that's WAY low on the pecking order IMO. below official QnA. Below interview with reporter even.

Id agree that they should be higher on a priority list but when they can have the same/greater flaws then lesser priority things those lesser priority things are still valid until counteracted.

[mickybrighteyes]

Id agree that they should be higher on a priority list but when they can have the same/greater flaws that lesser priority things are still valid until counteracted.

In this case I think the in game events still take priority because of what's shown. If that one post was correct then it'd have been changed... possible in the timeframe of 7-8 years ago

- - - Updated - - -

5)if u actually read the quests the alliance removed the civilians from taurajo. The captain fucked up and ACCIDENTALLY sent them into unsafe terroritory

As for Taurajo.... good job removing the civilians....

you got a few key details wrong. but this is the one I feel you should prolly take note of most. cause I think the bit abuot who started teh war has been said enough and if people still don't know they just plain aren't bothering to read.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

In this case I think the in game events still take priority because of what's shown. If that one post was correct then it'd have been changed... possible in the timeframe of 7-8 years ago

this is blizzard were talking about just with BFA they put in stuff with the war of thrones that was counteracted by there short story's not a week later, they are more likely to remove something that's incorrect then to fix it.

[mickybrighteyes]

this is blizzard were talking about just with BFA they put in stuff with the war of thrones that was counteracted by there short story's not a week later, they are more likely to remove something that's incorrect then to fix it.

part of why it still being in makes me consider it...

edit:

also the war of thorns stuff was getting fucked up with like 4 different tellings AND leaked material they were trying to hide in pre-release or careful "editing" of what was seen. but that one still has the lovely state of having something come along with an official stamp in the end despite it being an incredibly frustrating mess

[kendro1200]

Not only was Varian the one to declare war in Wrath, the Theramore attack on the Horde preceded the Cataclysm at Honor's Stand. Garrosh waging war against people who'd declared war on his faction is about as morally uncomplicated as it gets.

Azshara wasn't even Alliance territory, not that it would matter, since when you declare war on someone, they are going to hit you even if you stop actually prosecuting the war except for proxy attacks. Balkan countries declared wars where they couldn't even reach the enemy in WW2 and then got bombed for their retardation, the same applies here.

The Sylvanas thing re: Wrathgate is a complete red herring. Let's disregard that it's a hamhanded retcon where the omniscient viewpoint of the Cata intro makes clear it was entirely Putress or that Danuser walked the statement back a few days after Afrasiabi said it, no one present is aware she did it nor bases their reasoning on it. Varian declares war because he's salty at Thrall and for Sylvanas's unrelated treatment of Alliance captives in the Undercity, and had already attacked the Forsaken as the very first thing to happen in Howling Fjord well before the Wrathgate.

If you are referring to the "war" that started in WotLK, that ended by ICC. There was literal peace from ICC until Garrosh started a campaign against Ashenvale and Gilneas at the same time. Unless you want to pretend that Wolfheart does not exist, which puts a clear timeline for events of Cataclysm. The Horde shot first, because they always do. At this point no one, with Blizzard's writing, should ever even question who is the one that draws first blood after a ceasefire. The Horde always shoots, stabs or genocides first. The Alliance then reacts to the most recent Horde attrocity, and then 6 months later forgives them because someone makes a poorly hand written apology over how sorry they were about the things one person made an entire coalition of nations do unspeakable horrors and they would never do those horrible things otherwise.

[mickybrighteyes]

If you are referring to the "war" that started in WotLK, that ended by ICC. There was literal peace from ICC until Garrosh started a campaign against Ashenvale and Gilneas at the same time. Unless you want to pretend that Wolfheart does not exist, which puts a clear timeline for events of Cataclysm. The Horde shot first, because they always do. At this point no one, with Blizzard's writing, should ever even question who is the one that draws first blood after a ceasefire. The Horde always shoots, stabs or genocides first. The Alliance then reacts to the most recent Horde attrocity, and then 6 months later forgives them because someone makes a poorly hand written apology over how sorry they were about the things one person made an entire coalition of nations do unspeakable horrors and they would never do those horrible things otherwise.

I'm assuming they mean this:

"The Alliance-Horde war is an intercontinental war which serves as one of the driving forces of the plot of World of Warcraft. After years of cold war, with conflict being restrained to skirmishes in places like Alterac Valley and Warsong Gulch, King Varian Wrynn proclaimed open war against the Horde following the Battle of Angrathar the Wrathgate, a challenge in which the newly crowned Warchief Garrosh Hellscream gladly engaged in. The new war between the two superpowers raged across the Cataclysm and Pandaria Campaigns."

It doesn't state that the factions returned to peace with the lich king's demise.

[Thage]

The game paints Hawthorne very differently depending on your faction (probably deliberately)

Questing as the Horde paints him as the bloodthirsty slaughterer of Turajo (I don't have the exact quote but it's something like that)
Questing as the Alliance he tells you he leaves gaps in the Alliance lines to allow non-combatants to escape

Turajo to me is one of those things where it's kind of a valid target, it does train and outfit Horde warriors etc, but the optics are bad and not really worth attacking, at least for the Alliance. It's never sat well with me, you can justify it but it's definitely a darker part of the Alliance, as is the Purge of Dalaran (though I find that much more justifiable)

While true, the Alliance side of the quests is where I mentioned Hawthorne's depiction, since the Horde's depiction of him is based entirely on the results of his actions. As an Alliance adventurer, you see his incompetence firsthand and the game goes out of its way to show that. Not only did he send in conscripted prisoners, he used Wildhammer mercenaries to firebomb the settlement, and his gap in the formation funneled the civilians right into a quillboar tribe. The man fucked up the Taurajo situation in every way possible, and if memory serves (it's been a little while since I replayed the Barrens questlines) the Alliance leadership at Fort Triumph is pretty much willing to drop the matter there once the Horde kills Hawthorne in revenge and get back to warring like gentlemen.

[Dalheim]

A mana bomb is instant, leaves zero survivors (despite what you think, civilians are important, and killing them IS a war crime) and is honestly pretty cowardly for the "muh honor" Horde under Garrosh.

There were no civilians in Theramore that got caught in the blast. That's why Garrosh took his time letting them gear up, because they also evacuated the civilians. However, they seem to have been caught out on the sea and captured... since there are ''Captured Theramore Civilian'' mobs in Siege of Orgrimmar.

[Thage]

I'm assuming they mean this:

"The Alliance-Horde war is an intercontinental war which serves as one of the driving forces of the plot of World of Warcraft. After years of cold war, with conflict being restrained to skirmishes in places like Alterac Valley and Warsong Gulch, King Varian Wrynn proclaimed open war against the Horde following the Battle of Angrathar the Wrathgate, a challenge in which the newly crowned Warchief Garrosh Hellscream gladly engaged in. The new war between the two superpowers raged across the Cataclysm and Pandaria Campaigns."

It doesn't state that the factions returned to peace with the lich king's demise.

In the early chapters of The Shattering, Cairne mentions both in internal monologue and out loud to Garrosh that after the Lich King's defeat, there was a ceasefire that was in-depth enough that it clearly lined out where Alliance waters ended and Horde waters began, as an Alliance vessel had been blown off-course during a particularly nasty storm and Garrosh, with the support of the ship's crew, attacked them for supplies--abusing the wording of the treaty rather than the spirit of it to avoid ramifications. The novel and Cataclysm quests are purposefully mum on who threw the first punch that reignited the faction war, with most of the cause being pinned on resource shortages and Twilight's Hammer machinations.

[FuxieDK]

Blizzard had pretty much confirmed that the barrens conflict was started by North watch and co so I dont really see how it is a war crime

Jaina was pouring in legions of soldiers, steamtanks and ballista, burns down Taurajo and attacks the great gate, then garrosh has had enough, nukes it and suddenly it’s a war crime. «Innocents died». Innocents don’t matter in wow. There is a world quest where you run over like a thousand goblins with a dark iron golem and its seen as funny and hilarious

And Im not asking for a pissing contest about how much worse the horde has done, I am asking why its seen as a warcrime and not a legitimate military target *cough*

Does ANYONE (not counting "Ice Witch") see it as unjustified? Chocker..

Who says it's unjustified?

[Granyala]

I am asking why its seen as a warcrime and not a legitimate military target *cough*

Simple: according to human rules of Engagement, annihilating a large number of civilian non combatants is a war crime.

The arrogance here is expecting alien creatures to adhere to these human made rules of engagement.

To cite a famous Cardassian: "Correction: Humans have rules in War. Rules that make it harder to achieve victory."

[Oneirophobia]

Not true, Varian started the war in UC, hostilities began in WoTLK following the Wrathgate.

youtube_share;PxvQKCJagoI]https://youtu.be/PxvQKCJagoI?t=440

If you want to get technical, Sylvanas started the war when she had Putress and Varimathras plague bomb Bolvar (and then promptly threw them under the bus).

[Soon-TM]

1) using certaintypes of weapons are considered war crimes. Citation needed. There was no convention in Azeroth banning WMDs at the time, neither there is now.
2)generally attacking leadership with no chance of surrender are. I don't think I understand this... Are you trying to say that if you find an enemy important figure you won't attack him/her because... reasons?
3) theramore was not just a military base but civilian town as well. So were e.g. Dresden, Rotterdam or Warsaw during WWII, that didn't prevent the Allies from bombing them into the stone age. And no one in his/her sane mind considers it a war crime, despite the deaths of hundreds of thousands civilians.
4 garrosh is literally a nazi who started the war. If u dont want the local military of rival countries at your doorstep causing trouble maybe u dont start a war. The war wasn't declared by Garrosh, but by Varian during the Battle for the Undercity. Fun fact, Thrall was still Warchief at that time.
Its like blaming french revolutionaries for nazis getting killed on d day. WTF does this ever mean
5)if u actually read the quests the alliance removed the civilians from taurajo. The captain fucked up and ACCIDENTALLY sent them into unsafe terroritory. That's not what Horde quests say, so at the very minimum there is a lore inconsistency.
But no accidentally getting ppl killed is not the same as intentionally nuking ppl for fighting back in a war u started. Again, this is wrong.

All in all, you should really L2lore before posting in the lore subforum with a bunch of poorly structured statements which are dubious at best, and often wrong.

[Skytotem]

I'm still annoyed that a whole bunch of neutral characters popped in to Theramoore. Wasn't there even a Sha'tar draenei?

[Tarba]

Because it was alliance.
Like destroying the horde fleet and trying to assassinate their warchief in Stormhein was nothing the horde should care about.
And Sylvanas saving everyone from an obvious death trap by calling for retreat an evil act.

Plain retard writing.

[Lolites]

- The Purge of Dalaran was complete justified, the Sunreavers acted first and Jaina didn't kill those surrendering and allowed many to escape

thank you for proving my point, that everything is justified when alliance do it - so attacking military target, that was warned in advance and already had civilians evacuated is wrong
but attacking innocent shopkeepers that had no clue wtf is going on, without warning, just bcs they dont lie on the ground when FOREIGN SOLDIERS (dont forget alliance have no authority over them whatsoever) tell them to, is fine bcs 0,01% of them MIGHT HAVE done something...

so killing soldiers by horde - bad, killing innocent civiliands by alliance justified... double standards as usual

[cparle87]

- The Purge of Dalaran was complete justified, the Sunreavers acted first and Jaina didn't kill those surrendering and allowed many to escape

- I'm assuming you're refercing Jaina using the focusing iris to try and destroy Orgimmar, pretty sure no one in Alliance leadership ordered her to do that, she acted alone

- Orgimmar during SoO wasn't exactly a major Horde territory anymore, it was under rule of Garrosh and the True Horde, I'm curious how you're going to tell us it was a bad thing to do

- The Horde also attacked Undercity the first time, the second time was completely justified

Jaina trying to drown Orgrimmar was at the very beginning of MoP, before anyone, even Vol'jin had rebelled. It was completely a Horde territory.