"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[OFiveNine]

I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make here. In a choice between classes you are comparing the various potential classes. In a choice between covenants, you are comparing the various covenants. The covenant choice being a level down doesn't change the mechanics of the choice. In one you have a power-flavor/aesthetics-story-gameplay choice that makes you better or worse than people who choose another choice. The the other you have a power-flavor/aesthetics-story-gameplay choice that makes you better or worse than people who choose another choice.

That the second choice is within a class, if anything, makes the comparative impact of it less. Because someone playing current fire mage and picking a "bad" covenant is still probably going to perform better or in line than someone picking WW and picking a "good" covenant. An absolute minimum fire mage parse still lands in the average range for WW.


Now you are just undermining your own argument by pointing out that the relative power of the class based ability isn't even defining, because there are secondary factors like general covenant ability and soulbind options. Yes, that is part of the point. There are many factors to the choice, that is what makes it interesting. What resto druid is going to give a shit about a 60s CD blink with a cast time when they can take a literal beacon of light talent? Kyrian priests get a 50% movement speed baked into their kyrian active. A 90s CD 30% sprint might be very attractive to low movement classes, but it's significantly less attractive to people who already have a lot of mobility.

So what you're saying is, different classes and specs have different mandatory covenants that you should take. I see.

[Krakan]

I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make here. In a choice between classes you are comparing the various potential classes. In a choice between covenants, you are comparing the various covenants. The covenant choice being a level down doesn't change the mechanics of the choice. In one you have a power-flavor/aesthetics-story-gameplay choice that makes you better or worse than people who choose another choice. The the other you have a power-flavor/aesthetics-story-gameplay choice that makes you better or worse than people who choose another choice.

That the second choice is within a class, if anything, makes the comparative impact of it less. Because someone playing current fire mage and picking a "bad" covenant is still probably going to perform better or in line than someone picking WW and picking a "good" covenant. An absolute minimum fire mage parse still lands in the average range for WW.


Now you are just undermining your own argument by pointing out that the relative power of the class based ability isn't even defining, because there are secondary factors like general covenant ability and soulbind options. Yes, that is part of the point. There are many factors to the choice, that is what makes it interesting. What resto druid is going to give a shit about a 60s CD blink with a cast time when they can take a literal beacon of light talent? Kyrian priests get a 50% movement speed baked into their kyrian active. A 90s CD 30% sprint might be very attractive to low movement classes, but it's significantly less attractive to people who already have a lot of mobility.

I still don't think you addressed why this is a positive system...

If the environment you play in changes constantly why would you want to be locked to a choice that becomes a dead slot?

The only examples I'm given are ancient rpgs were they all offer the ability to simply out grind and poor choice and don't really have much of a difficultly season to start with.

I hope that at a minimum blizzard doesn't nerf or buff covenants if they make a broken one I hope they at least don't make it a shitty boring grind to switch it after they nerf it thing.

[DemonDays]

I hope that at a minimum blizzard doesn't nerf or buff covenants if they make a broken one I hope they at least don't make it a grind boring shit to switch it after they nerf it thing.

Blizzard is absolutely horrendous at balancing.

Proof is in the pudding:

Artifacts
Legiondaries
NLC
Azerite
Essences
Corruption
TALENTS

Expect the best one to be the worst one within a few weeks. The pendulum will swing and it will be brutal.

[Echocho]

Wow stopped being an rpg years ago. It’s an mmo ARPG today. The Same people who say make it permanent, are usually the most outspoken against wow classic... even tho that’s a more pure rpg than retail

Who's ass did you pull that opinion out of?

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If having choices that stick matters so much, why are soulbinds swappable?

Because it's not all or nothing. Just because one system is swappable doesn't mean that every system has to be and vice versa.

Things are rarely black or white.

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The top end players will be forced to pick the best ones, the rest will get hassled if they don't. If they are good enough that it matters, then it will matter enough to negatively impact your chances in pug playing.

This is just straight up lying. BfA has the most systems on top of systems the game has ever had, and I've always picked the traits, essences etc that I enjoy and not the ones that some spreadsheet tells me to pick. I PUG a lot of content and not once have I've been given crap for how I've chosen to build my character. Raider.io score or achievements on the other hand, that's where the community really draws the line between you joining the group or not, it has nothing to do with being optimal.

[Kyux]

That's where I disagree - you do choose to play casually or hardcore.

In any event, even if there is no real choice Blizzard is just giving another layer of abilities and choice for those that want it. It has no downside to the hardcore and provides a benefit for the casual. Net gain.

[Zantera]

The issue I have with this whole situation is that they are punishing people who play more sides of the game. If you're a raid logger or casual m+ player who only play one type of content then this won't have an impact on you all but if you are someone who is in a raid guild, enjoys m+, god forbid maybe even have an interest in PVP then it's a system that will actually make areas of the game less enjoyable, so ultimately why do them? If you happen to be a player who do more than 1 area of the game, this system will be a great way to push your most loyal and active players into becoming raidloggers, OR maybe quit raiding to focus on m+. But again if you're a more casual player who only does 1 side of the game then it won't really impact you at all.

[Echocho]

The issue I have with this whole situation is that they are punishing people who play more sides of the game.

Not really. Players are imagining that they'll be punished by other players when in reality it'll be just fine.

You can pug any piece of content (yes even mythic raids) with whatever combination of talents, azerite traits, essences and corruption effects you choose. This won't be any different.

[Zantera]

Not really. Players are imagining that they'll be punished by other players when in reality it'll be just fine.

You can pug any piece of content (yes even mythic raids) with whatever combination of talents, azerite traits, essences and corruption effects you choose. This won't be any different.

Depends what level you are talking about. Personally I would consider myself in the casual crowd as a 10/12m / 2.5k r.io player (nothing fancy there) so I'll be fine picking the raid option (which IMO anyone who takes raiding even remotely serious and is in a raiding guild should do) but having a sub-par option for m+ is definitely gonna suck out fun from doing it so I will most likely be fine just doing my weekly 15 or whatever.

With that said I have friends who are a lot better than me who take the content seriously and they are the people I feel bad for. When the main argument is "you can just do the content without being optimized for it, whats the big deal?" that just sounds like a pretty lame excuse for a broken system in my ears. Didn't this game use to function in a way where you could take on the different aspects of it and go in optimal? TBC/WotLK didn't have an option to pick only PVP or PVE gear and then you would be locked with that set no matter if you went into a dungeon or a BG. To me the Covenant system itself would feel a lot less problematic if they didn't have such an importance gameplay-wise.

But also, thinking you can pug any content with whatever setup you have is actually a bit naive. I consider myself an average player who haven't pushed into the real high level of m+ but I still come across groups where they do the full CSI investigation on someone with essences/azerite setup and someone might be booted because they show signs of not being optimized. It's naive to think that if you're a havoc DH (for example) with a raid covenant signing up for a key (lets say 15 or higher) against 4 other havoc DHs with similar gear and the m+ covenant that you have a decent chance getting in over them.

[Beuargh]

Also, disconnecting abilities from covenant would feel like adding an extra talent row.

And what is wrong with that ?

Disconnecting abilities from covenent makes players chose their covenant by personal preference rather than chosing one they don't like but the ability linked to it is the best for them.

With a new talent row players can change ability easily.

From what I read on this forum, thats what the players are asking for....chose covenant for the theme they like the most and be able to swap talent/ability easily

[Lolites]

what i wanna say: your mindset is rather short thought and it will bring you nowhere. nor is it realistic to hold this up in reality. or in short: you act like you can decouple you from player base and the gaming environment, you dont control. in a mmorpg. thats laughable.

that is assuming most people will act like YOU SAID, which is as idiotic as think the opposite...
no matter what they do with covenants, 90% people will not give a shit, 5% will be pissed they are how they are and 5% will be happy they are what they are...
now ignoring 90% people who wont care, give me one good reason why blizz should to listen to the 5% you agree with and not the 5% you disagree with?

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From what I read on this forum, thats what the players are asking for....

thats what PART of players is asking for, while its opposite of what other part of players ask for...
while silent majority wont give a fuck

[justandulas]

Who's ass did you pull that opinion out of?

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Because it's not all or nothing. Just because one system is swappable doesn't mean that every system has to be and vice versa.

Things are rarely black or white.

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This is just straight up lying. BfA has the most systems on top of systems the game has ever had, and I've always picked the traits, essences etc that I enjoy and not the ones that some spreadsheet tells me to pick. I PUG a lot of content and not once have I've been given crap for how I've chosen to build my character. Raider.io score or achievements on the other hand, that's where the community really draws the line between you joining the group or not, it has nothing to do with being optimal.

It’s facts, not my fault you can’t understand it.

The essences aren’t permanent. Your azerite isn’t permanent. Your corruption isn’t permanent. Your spec isn’t permanent. Your race and appearance aren’t even permanent.

Why on earth should this game altering, covenant be permanent when it doesn’t fit the mold of current wow?

If it was added to classic then yeah, it would have a place in that rpg world, but not the arpg world of retail

[Niwes]

that is assuming most people will act like YOU SAID, which is as idiotic as think the opposite...
no matter what they do with covenants, 90% people will not give a shit, 5% will be pissed they are how they are and 5% will be happy they are what they are...
now ignoring 90% people who wont care, give me one good reason why blizz should to listen to the 5% you agree with and not the 5% you disagree with?

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thats what PART of players is asking for, while its opposite of what other part of players ask for...
while silent majority wont give a fuck

so this seems it comes down to „depends if your assumed numbers will be correct (since you act like your assumed numbers will be the only truth) or mine“. because the YOU SAID argument is also true for your statements/numbers. we just dont know. so we can only wait and see, how our 90% will look like in reality after release.

[A Chozo]

Lads, if you can't defend your opinion without made-up statistics (90% of WoW's population will behave like this if X happens - source: dude, trust me), then your arguments lose a lot of credibility.

[Elias01]

The issue I have with this whole situation is that they are punishing people who play more sides of the game. If you're a raid logger or casual m+ player who only play one type of content then this won't have an impact on you all but if you are someone who is in a raid guild, enjoys m+, god forbid maybe even have an interest in PVP then it's a system that will actually make areas of the game less enjoyable, so ultimately why do them? If you happen to be a player who do more than 1 area of the game, this system will be a great way to push your most loyal and active players into becoming raidloggers, OR maybe quit raiding to focus on m+. But again if you're a more casual player who only does 1 side of the game then it won't really impact you at all.

I really never know what to think about players what demand to be optimal in all situations so they can fell powerfull. Its such entilted and boring concept. I dont know if its todays milenials what just got spoiled by social media or something. But this i want everyting and anything seriously has to stop.

[SirBeef]

Because it's such good design to tie both DPS, utility, questing experience, lore and transmog to a single choice.

You say that as if classes are losing all those everywhere else. You are gaining and additional utility or DPS skill. Classes are not losing anything. You still have a full zone story arc with each covenant. It's not like you choose right away and are not allowed to enter the other zones or anything.

Were you complaining about class Ordder Halls/Artifact weapons and the fact that your character was locked out from 11+ transmogs, skills, questing experience, and lore by no choice if yours other than your initial choice of class?

[Zantera]

I really never know what to think about players what demand to be optimal in all situations so they can fell powerfull. Its such entilted and boring concept. I dont know if its todays milenials what just got spoiled by social media or something. But this i want everyting and anything seriously has to stop.

If you play the game at any serious level of course you want to be as competitive as you can be, that's just logic. In my head it makes sense that people who play more and do harder content are rewarded and not punished for it though? The only people who will see no issue with the Covenant system are people who either only take one of the game modes seriously (raidloggers, m+ players OR pvpers) or people who don't care about performing as good as they can.

I just don't get their reasoning behind the system. Like shouldn't you as a game developer come up with ways to encourage people to take part in more aspects of the game? This pretty much does the opposite.

[Kralljin]

Its such entilted and boring concept.

Also WoW's current design:
We need to place Accessability above everything else, any content that cannot be accessed by the masses is considered a failure and must be made accessible for them.

This "Entitlement" goes both ways, because Blizzard has been designing this game for a long time with the mindset that every player is entitled to see everything with minimal effort.
And they sure as shit won't stop doing that.

[Feanoro]

How many mistakes must one moron make before he's deemed as an incompetent leader and not fit for the job?

Based on the Ghostcrawler standard, two failed expansions in a row with involvement in a third failure. Legion was viewed as a success.

[DemonDays]

Also WoW's current design:
We need to place Accessability above everything else, any content that cannot be accessed by the masses is considered a failure and must be made accessible for them.

This "Entitlement" goes both ways, because Blizzard has been designing this game for a long time with the mindset that every player is entitled to see everything with minimal effort.
And they sure as shit won't stop doing that.

THIS.

I brought this up a few pages ago too.

Ion doesn't get to neuter classes, remove RPG aspects and repeatedly dumb down the game in favour of accessibility and then ALL OF A SUDDEN claim he wants to "add the RPG back" and "meaningful choice".


This isn't meaningful choice. It's gating and grind disguised as that.

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Based on the Ghostcrawler standard, two failed expansions in a row with involvement in a third failure. Legion was viewed as a success.

Legion is also the expansion that:

Destroyed Class Design.
Introduced insane levels of RNG into every aspect of the game. (Legiondaries LOL)
Introduced ridiculous AP grinds.
Introduced boring, lazy checklist type content. (Emissaries, WQs etc)
Introduced insane time-gating on all forms of content.
Made useless RNG loot rain from the sky. Vendoring thousands of epics.

Overall Legion introduced the "Diablofication" of the game. Something that has no place in an MMO.


Although people seem to forget these things since the Class Order Halls were pretty fantastic.

BfA is Legion-lite. It has all the same things as Legion, it's just people got tired of them for the second time around.

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You say that as if classes are losing all those everywhere else. You are gaining and additional utility or DPS skill. Classes are not losing anything. You still have a full zone story arc with each covenant. It's not like you choose right away and are not allowed to enter the other zones or anything.

Were you complaining about class Ordder Halls/Artifact weapons and the fact that your character was locked out from 11+ transmogs, skills, questing experience, and lore by no choice if yours other than your initial choice of class?

For the 6th year in a row we are not gaining a single new talent row or baseline ability.

Only rental systems. Except this time around you have to choose your rental system/abilities. Thereby locking you out of the other choices. Blizzard has a bad habit of plugging holes in their own shitty class design via these rental systems. So by picking 1 out of the 4 you are potentially locking yourself out of class fixes.

You also lock yourself out of a questing experience, transmog, utility, DPS and talents(soulbinds). You potentially lock yourself(permanently without a huge grind) out of playstyles.

You're also completely ignoring the fact that Night Fae may have the best/most fun ability for my class but their Armour and questing experience doesn't fucking suit me or my "Death Knight".

Also care to comment on the fact that some of the abilities are very clearly catered to SPECIFIC pieces of content like Mythic+, Raiding or PvP.


Once again. Stop fucking comparing this to a choice of class or race. This is NOT the same thing. This is a TACKED ON endgame system that has REPLACED new talent rows and new BASELINE abilities. This system will be DELETED at the end of Shadowlands.

This is not a choice you make at the CHARACTER CREATION SCREEN.

[Feanoro]

Legion is also the expansion that:

Destroyed Class Design.
Introduced insane levels of RNG into every aspect of the game. (Legiondaries LOL)
Introduced ridiculous AP grinds.
Introduced boring, lazy checklist type content. (Emissaries, WQs etc)
Introduced insane time-gating on all forms of content.
Made useless RNG loot rain from the sky. Vendoring thousands of epics.

Overall Legion introduced the "Diablofication" of the game. Something that has no place in an MMO.


Although people seem to forget these things since the Class Order Halls were pretty fantastic.

BfA is Legion-lite. It has all the same things as Legion, it's just people got tired of them for the second time around.

You won't hear me arguing against any of that. I said that Blizzard considers Legion a success, since your question involved someone being fired. Precedent is two failed expansions in a row to fire a lead designer.