Why is Theramore seen as unjustified?

[Lolites]

1: Kicked the Blood Elves out of Dalaran. Didn't commit genoicde.
2: "Tried", but in the end didn't.
3: Helped Horde retake Orgrimmar from genocidal maniac.
4: Helped Horde get rid of a genocidal maniac.
5/6: First Undercity attack was to help kill a Dreadlord who had "apparently" ordered the Blighting of the Wrathgate that killed hundreds of Alliance and Horde soldiers. Second Undercity attack was in direct retaliation to the Horde committing genocide by burning down Teldrassil with who knows how many civilians and children left there.

Any other BS you want to throw out? That's not even taking in to account how many times the Horde has used Blight to permanently destroy things. Undercity. Southshore. Gilneas.

1. so feeding innocents to shark is ok, bcs it wasnt all of them, sure
2. she didnt stop though, she WAS STOPPED by Thrall and Kalec, so not by alliance which didnt even scold her after
3. alliance had their fair share of shit going on in their cities (onyxia for example) yet horde did let them solve it internaly instead of sieging them...
4. more like horde helped them not to loose war but ok
5. again, as in point 3, horde internal matters should be solved by horde not by alliance storming their city

yeah horde use blight, what a horror pure innocent alliance just use fire, for example on innocent vulperas, what a heroes they are...

- - - Updated - - -

The alliance have done some shit yea, not really denying that.
But compared to Chemical Warfare and mana bombs...it's basically nothing.

i mean they use fire (poor vulperas) fire golems (poor goblins) molten giants (poor zandalari) and shit like that, its not like burning people is better than chemical warfare...
plus Jaina trying to level orgrimmar with focusing iris (the same used to make mana bomb that destroyed theramore) is hardly different, she just wasnt successfull bcs Thrall and Kalec (not the alliance) stoped her...

- - - Updated - - -

guess what happened to all of them after that

they get to stormwind i would assume... or did they just jump the ship for some reason?

[Kithelle]

Not true, Varian started the war in UC, hostilities began in WoTLK following the Wrathgate.

And what started the Wrathgate? I don't know...could it be Horde forced plague bombing people?

[Super Dickmann]

If you are referring to the "war" that started in WotLK, that ended by ICC. There was literal peace from ICC until Garrosh started a campaign against Ashenvale and Gilneas at the same time. Unless you want to pretend that Wolfheart does not exist, which puts a clear timeline for events of Cataclysm. The Horde shot first, because they always do. At this point no one, with Blizzard's writing, should ever even question who is the one that draws first blood after a ceasefire. The Horde always shoots, stabs or genocides first. The Alliance then reacts to the most recent Horde attrocity, and then 6 months later forgives them because someone makes a poorly hand written apology over how sorry they were about the things one person made an entire coalition of nations do unspeakable horrors and they would never do those horrible things otherwise.

A peace and a ceasefire aren't the same thing and even then, it didn't come from ICC - where they kill each other, but some time afterwards and was in no way a normalization of relations, since trade was still off. Ashenvale and Gilneas both took place as an offensive after the Shattering took place - Honor's Stand as well as the halt in deliveries, took place before the Cataclysm. The Alliance declared war and after a ceasefire, the Alliance also shot first again.

Gilneas is in any case a non-issue since it wasn't even part of the Alliance at the time of the invasion.

[Lolites]

Simple: according to human rules of Engagement, annihilating a large number of civilian non combatants is a war crime.

thank god that didnt happen as civilians bwere evacuated by boats before horde reached the theramore

[Ielenia]

The game paints Hawthorne very differently depending on your faction (probably deliberately)

Questing as the Horde paints him as the bloodthirsty slaughterer of Turajo (I don't have the exact quote but it's something like that)
Questing as the Alliance he tells you he leaves gaps in the Alliance lines to allow non-combatants to escape

Turajo to me is one of those things where it's kind of a valid target, it does train and outfit Horde warriors etc, but the optics are bad and not really worth attacking, at least for the Alliance. It's never sat well with me, you can justify it but it's definitely a darker part of the Alliance, as is the Purge of Dalaran (though I find that much more justifiable)

I believe the lore says that the Alliance only attacked Taurajo because the Alliance intelligence received information that the Horde was preparing to launch an invasion into Theramore starting from Taurajo. The intelligence was shown to be incorrect, but that was only found out after the fact.

Other than that... I read people saying that Alliance "is attacking the Great Gate", but... I don't remember ever seeing any indication of that. Sure, there are Alliance ballistas and some Alliance soldiers in front of the Gates, but none of the ballistas have fired, none are destroyed, there are no dead bodies on the ground, and the Gate is still pristine, no damage. In other words, no sign of attacks. It's like the Alliance is just... sitting and waiting for the Tauren to make the first move.

[Combatbutler]

Other than that... I read people saying that Alliance "is attacking the Great Gate", but... I don't remember ever seeing any indication of that. Sure, there are Alliance ballistas and some Alliance soldiers in front of the Gates, but none of the ballistas have fired, none are destroyed, there are no dead bodies on the ground, and the Gate is still pristine, no damage. In other words, no sign of attacks. It's like the Alliance is just... sitting and waiting for the Tauren to make the first move.

You should order Glasses then

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Great_Gate...of_Mulgore.jpg
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Great_Gate...Great_Gate.jpg

[Ielenia]

The attack itself was mostly justified, because of the situation at the Barrens. Intention or not, what happened there is how it happened. The attack was used as a counter to push the Alliance out of Kalimdor because of their shit at the Barrens.

The attack was justified, but not the methods, especially since the mana-bomb is not only the WoW equivalent of a nuclear bomb (leaving the place basically inhabitable) but because using it goes against this "ERMAHGERD HONOR LOK'TAR OGAR HONORABLE DEATH" that the orcs (and Garrosh) are supposed to have.

- - - Updated - - -

You should order Glasses then

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Great_Gate...of_Mulgore.jpg
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Great_Gate...Great_Gate.jpg

Hm. Either that got changed since the last time I've been to the Barrens (since Cata, really), or I do need glasses. Thanks.

[socialmaker]

Imagine really caring for WoW lore tho.

Infracted.

[Daronokk]

It's seen as a war crime because Garrosh nuked the city, without any care or concern for the civilian population nonetheless.

Bollocks. He specifically waited for the civilians to evacuate. The people that stayed had it coming and were legitimate targets.

There is nothing wrong with the bombing of Theramore. They made themselves a strategic military target by being the staging point for a Kalimdor invasion on the Horde.

[Raisei]

I kinda get it I guess but im tired of the horde getting blamed for everything all the time

But if we are going to talk about war crimes I might aswell trial the draenei for bringing the burning legion to draenor but I guess they paid reparations with the road of glory ;-))

Tired of being blamed for everything then glorifying the genocide of peaceful civilians in just two sentences. Basically you want the Horde to keep going on murder sprees but you don't want to be blamed for it. Congratulations you got exactly what you want in BFA.

1) Theramore became a threat to the Horde AFTER Garrosh declared his intent for Kalimdor. Jaina kept trying to keep the peace, but with that lunatic on the other side she had to secure her people.

We see after all very clearly what the Horde does to defenseless humans. Just look what happened to the Refugees of Theramore only a bit later. Bartenders and similar civilians were bound to poles and used for target practice while still alive.

With the Horde capable and enjoying those disgusting and barbaric practices you loose any justification and in turn justify any action the Alliance takes.

The amount of times that the Horde owes it's continous survival to the Alliance are stacking up and considering the only thing we get back is being stabbed in the back the very moment the Horde has no extra-dimensional beings to kill, I really wonder why we let it exist.

2) It must be a thing of professional pride for the Horde posters to keep blaming victims. Probably the only way they can cope with the multiple genocides their beloved faction has commited.

The Draenei did not bring the Burning Legion anywhere, they were HUNTED. They are REFUGEES. They are NOT responsible for the actions of Sargeras, is that really so hard to grasp? Do you expect them to just let themselves be slaughtered?

[Shinrael]

The book canon never addresses the fact that Theramoore was sending troops

It very well did.

[Combatbutler]

2) It must be a thing of professional pride for the Horde posters to keep blaming victims. The Draenei did not bring the Burning Legion anywhere, they were HUNTED. They are REFUGEES. They are NOT responsible for the actions of Sargeras, is that really so hard to grasp?

True but the Draenei are the definition of selfish cowards plain and simple, they knew they were hunted, yet they didn't adapt and tried the same shit over and over again, their society could by all means no longer be peaceful, yet they still had mostly civilians, instead of going full martial to prepare to fight their wayward people and protect others from them, because they knew they were coming.

The Draenei did nothing of the sort, not even after their ship had broken down and escape became impossible for 200 years they did nothing of note, they did not unite draenor under them, forcing the primitive races into submission ,if necessary thus creating a fortress world. No all they did was build a society that is the definition of useless considering what they were up against and at the slightest obstacle collapsed like the house of cards that it has been.

[faithbane]

Just because it had military facilities does not invalidate its status as civilian target. A metropolis with many barracks and military workshops would still be a civilian target. And it was a war crime, that's why the factions of the world decided to put Garrosh on trial for his many war crimes, including the Fall of Theramore.

The Alliance believed the Horde would use Taurajo to recruit troops and launch an attack on Theramore. Even Baine recognized that it was a valid military target.

Wow like reading this shit with my own eyes and I still cant believe its not parody.. If you actually wrote the above with a straight face, it is a waste of time to even have a discussion with you.. you might want to see a doctor as well to cure that irony impairment. I feel bad for people going back and forth with you here.

[EntertainmentNihilist]

Pretty sure the alliance actions in the southern barrens were in response to horde aggression in Ashenvale. You know...the reason Cairne stood up to Garrosh and died.

Garrosh wanted to conquer Kalimdor for "The Horde", at the expense of nature and all the other peoples. All the War in Cata and MoP was a result of his warmongering BS. Theramore was unjustified because of his intent.

Honestly, I feel Jaina would have been justified in destroying Orgimmar. That would have ended the threat once and for all and prevented more bloodshed in the long run.

[Combatbutler]

Pretty sure the alliance actions in the southern barrens were in response to horde aggression in Ashenvale. You know...the reason Cairne stood up to Garrosh and died.

Garrosh wanted to conquer Kalimdor for "The Horde", at the expense of nature and all the other peoples. All the War in Cata and MoP was a result of his warmongering BS. Theramore was unjustified because of his intent.

The thing is both were justified, Jaina for trying to stop Garrosh's ambition preemptively and Jainas actions gave Garrosh all the legitimacy he needed.

Honestly, I feel Jaina would have been justified in destroying Orgimmar. That would have ended the threat once and for all and prevented more bloodshed in the long run.

That would be pretty much the same as torching Teldrassil.

[matrix123mko]

Blizzard had pretty much confirmed that the barrens conflict was started by North watch and co so I dont really see how it is a war crime

Jaina was pouring in legions of soldiers, steamtanks and ballista, burns down Taurajo and attacks the great gate, then garrosh has had enough, nukes it and suddenly it’s a war crime. «Innocents died». Innocents don’t matter in wow. There is a world quest where you run over like a thousand goblins with a dark iron golem and its seen as funny and hilarious

And Im not asking for a pissing contest about how much worse the horde has done, I am asking why its seen as a warcrime and not a legitimate military target *cough*

Simple. Narrator in War Crimes called it unjustified and cowardly. War Crimes were written by Jaina Proudmoore.

[Skytotem]

It very well did.

Quote the passage?

[matrix123mko]

Its always funny to watch anyone on this forum with an alliance lion, alleria or a nightelf as avatar.

Indeed. Only Raisei tries to hide his allegiance.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe because there are 2 factions in this game and one of them has NEVER launched a devastating assault against a major city - or even settlement - of the other, while the other faction leaves no opportunity unused to nuke civilians?

I am pretty sure Cenarion Circle is not a playable faction.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the official stance from Blizzard on when the war started and by who:

Q:
The Alliance army who invaded the Barrens wore the tabard of Theramore. Were they under Jaina Proudmoore's command? And their invasion happened way before the time of the incoming destruction of Theramore incident, so what's the reason behind their attack on Orgrimmar's territory? It seems the Alliance and the Horde were already in total war in Cataclysm.

A:
Because Garrosh wants to defeat the night elves and conquer the whole of Kalimdor under the banner of the Horde. So the humans of Theramore sent their army and tried to establish a military line between the night elf territory and Theramore. But it seems the result is not what they expected.

Convenient retcon.

- - - Updated - - -

Is there any convention in Azeroth that explicitly forbids WMDs? Or is this more RL projecting BS on a game with hereditary monarchs, knights in shining armour and dragons?

It was made up by pandaren after Garrosh was captured.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes. Point to the use of genocidal tactics for me please. In none of these instances did the Alliance try and commit a "horde" and start killing the general population.

Because Blizzard never cares to highlight Alliance crimes.

[Combatbutler]

Because Blizzard never cares to highlight Alliance crimes.

Because usually they aren't big enough to deserve such spotlight.

[matrix123mko]

It was one caravan and the "purge" of dalaran was against military targets.

There are no mentions about size of Stonespire Tribe as it is completely extinct now.