Why is Theramore seen as unjustified?

[Mehrunes]

Explain how a bombed city is being used to support the Alliance?

By the time the Purge happened, Theramore was gone. There is no port to be docked at. She can't be supporting the Alliance with Theramore at the time of the Purge, because Theramore is gone by then.

And I didn't call Theramore neutral. I called Jaina neutral. Theramore was an Alliance city which Jaina presided over. She had neutral goals. She however, cannot deny the Alliance the ability to dock in their own port. It's really that simple. She is neutral, the city is not.

Holy shit, you don't even know how the Alliance works. Which is surprising, given how Blizzard explicitly described it in a blue post. So let me refresh your memory. The Alliance (as the name kinda suggests) is just that, an Alliance. It's not a unified entity and the High King only gets to command forces explicitly given under his command by Alliance's members. Members like, you know, Theramore. If Jaina didn't give the Alliance the go-ahead they wouldn't be able to to jack shit about it and the claim that she couldn't have denied them the ability to dock in her city couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

And then you go on insulting @TheRevenantHero and pretending you proved them wrong.

It's precisely why the change in Dalaran and the cut of betrayal is that much deeper when the Purge happens. Because with Theramore, you're absolutely right - It was a valid military target, being an Alliance naval base. But Dalaran wasn't an Alliance city - It's a neutral city. Horde members had a reasonable right to expect to be safe within it's walls, and Alliance members had the same right. It was not meant to be used as a staging ground for war like Theramore. When Garrosh used her city for war, that was at best an invitation for her city to be used for warfare, and at worst a staging ground for Dalaran to be a new target.

Jaina's violation of Dalaran's neutrality still occurred before Garrosh had the Bell smuggled through it. The fact that Jaina was out there aiding the Alliance against him was the very reason why she wasn't in Dalaran during the smuggling where she could have maybe seen that happening while the operation was ongoing.

You're bad at this whole politics thing. That's not how that works at all.

She literally worked VERY hard to ensure Dalaran would be a bastion of neutrality, which would not involve itself in the Horde/Alliance war specifically because it caused Theramore's bombing. She was neutral during, and even after Theramore.

Please... Aside from empty platitudes Jaina working "very hard to ensure Dalaran being a bastion of neutrality" consisted of her aiding Darnassus in a fight against the Horde. A fight during which she personally killed, wounded or captured Horde prisoners with her traps (depending on what they did). Traps that she herself admitted, in an Alliance quest no less, to have used. When push came to shove Jaina not only shat all over Dalaran neutrality she supposedly gave a shit about, but since she was the leader of the nation her actions turned it into Alliance's co-belligerent.

And you have even less of a leg to stand on in regards to Jaina during Theramore. You know what Jaina told Kinndy when she proposed asking Dalaran for help? That doing so would be asking them to break their neutrality. Try to figure out the why. As a hint, let me remind you of the time when she flat out referred to Varian as her king back in WotLK.

[Aucald]

I still find it absolutely hilarious that the Horde apparently kept some undetermined amount of Theramore survivors in dungeons, feeding and clothing them for over a full year solely so that Garrosh could eventually show them off to his enemies in a siege he never had any expectation to take place. It's probably the most hamhanded bit of villain batting they did with the character short of that part where they made him fine with warlocks and undead for the sake of a single bit of Alliance quest content, only to then immediately revert to his Cataclysm anti-warlock characterization right after.

Also, I think the implication is that since they were evacuated to Tanaris at the end of the book and the Horde Pandaria experience reports a victory off the shore of Tanaris in its beginning cutscene, that's when some amount were taken.

I've always imagined that Garrosh kept these prisoners originally as bargaining pieces should he have need of them, basically to ransom them back to the Alliance at some future point in the conflict. But when Garrosh brought the Heart of Y'Shaarj back to Orgrimmar it had a pretty strong effect on some of his True Horde compatriots, corrupting them with pride and causing the majority of the excesses we see in the Valley of Strength during the SoO raid. Horde citizens gang-pressed into service, Alliance captives turned into target practice, Horde citizens turned into target practice in the Drag, and martial law in the streets enforced with draconian zeal by the Kor'kron. While Garrosh may have partially willed himself above the influence of the Old Gods (a statement that is itself very debatable in my view), I don't think a fair majority of his forces managed the same trick.

[Combatbutler]

Im not talking about the quest representation, im talking about what she asks, she tells you to place the staff on the room and it would drain the power from Lei Shen. Do you think draining magic is a surgical precise movement where you specify "NO, DONT ABSORB MAGIC FROM THIS AREA, JUST ABSORB THIS OTHER PRECISE AREA!".

Yet Lei'shens heart still held the spark and gave wrathion visions in the same manner it gave them to ra'den when he ate it. You put Jaina too much on a pedestal plain and simple

Although im not going to agree on this, lets move forward because we are moving far away from the topic... my point regarding Jaina's strength is that she is actually able to topple cities (no matter where her power comes from, if from bad writting or from bad lore) and she does not do it.

Considering what she did afterwards with all that power, not playing a large role in the siege of Orgrimmar, being utterly wrecked during Garrosh's trial, barely able to shield herself in the zul'dazar trailer, I don't really see the basis for her being able to level cities on the fly.

[Lolites]

This thread is a fascinating tour in what Alliance posters are deliberately ignoring. On one hand they want to ignore the game material showing things like Theramore's involvement in the war or earlier things like Northwatch aggression on the Barrens predating Garrosh's invasion on Ashenvale or, even earlier, Varian being the one to declare the war back in wrath.

So one could think that it's just what @Skytotem said in the very first reply, i.e. how the book doesn't address Theramore's behavior in Cata. As in, one could think that Alliance posters are simply going by the book alone while ignoring the game. Except... at the same time there's the story of innocents and children being killed by the mana bomb pushed as the main reason why Theramore is bad.

You know, the innocents and children that left Theramore via ship because Garrosh deliberately sat at Theramore's gates for a week doing nothing, giving them ample time to leave. Which they did, leaving only those wanting to fight behind. Which made them no longer mere civilians but a militia. And militia members are combatants and as such valid targets of war. And all of that is covered in the book.

So Alliance fanfiction peddlers aren't just ignoring the game material and focusing on the book alone, which is already wrong since game material is still canon. No, they are doing something even worse. They are cherry-picking the most convenient aspects of both the book and the game. Though credits where credits are due, it is nice of them to expose themselves this hard.

they will twist whatever to fit their narrative, my favourite is horde attacking alliance civilians is atrocity but alliance atacking horde civilians is fine, bcs they were supporting the soldiers... and burning people is fine, just blighting them is bad alliance appologist are the worst plague upon forums

[Mehrunes]

She literally says, in the quests leading up to the Divine Bell scenario, that Dalaran is a bastion and a neutral city. She literally says, immediately after the purge, that the King no longer has anything to worry about, because and I quote:

She also literally says in the quest starting the Divine Bell scenario that the reason why she was in Darnassus was that she was personally aiding the Alliance in a fight against the Horde and equally personally trapping Horde soldiers. Come on, if you are going to use Jaina's words to support your position don't blatantly cherry-pick them because it's not only disingenuous, but the level of transparency here just makes it sad.

Also, here's a fun token of trivia, Jaina conducted the Purge with the help of a batallion from Stormwind. So even ignoring Jaina helping out at Darnassus (you know, like you blatantly did), the conclusion from her second quote that you're trying to conjure, i.e. how it means Dalaran went team blue only after the Purge is still baseless. The Purge was conducted hand in hand with Alliance soldiers. So the link that you're so desperately trying to deny by cherry-picking the shit out of lore is still there.

Actually, false.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Jaina_Proudmoore#War_Crimes

She WAS in fact leader, and thus acting authority. The council told her she must be destined to BECOME leader in Rhonin's place.

Except for the part where the leader of the Council of Six has so little individual power they don't even get a tie-breaker vote. When Anthonidas apprehended Kel'thuzad it wasn't just him, but him and two other Council members (i.e. the majority of the Council with Kel'thuzad counting as recused since it'd be idiotic for his vote to count when he was the one charged). And, on a side note, Anthonidas actually had evidence to back his actions. All Jaina had was a portal to Dalaran a non-Sunreaver left at Darnassus and she simply jumped to conclusions.

non canon, it's only sunreavers that fight back.

That doesn't however cover the Sunreaver guards she killed before she even charged the Sunreavers with anything. I.e. before the Sunreavers denied her ultimatum that would give her any grounds for her to kill her (I mean, obviously putting aside how the entire Purge was one giant power abuse as the leader of the Council of Six doesn't have this sort of individual power). Even with Jaina's murder spree while she walks around the square just being buggy behavior, Sunreaver blood is still directly on her hands (and plenty more is on them indirectly due to her letting Silver Covenant lunatics loose on the city).

[Saltysquidoon]

they will twist whatever to fit their narrative, my favourite is horde attacking alliance civilians is atrocity but alliance atacking horde civilians is fine, bcs they were supporting the soldiers... and burning people is fine, just blighting them is bad alliance appologist are the worst plague upon forums

You know people might take your posts slightly more seriously if you didn't start unironically posting intentionally bad faith arguments like that SoO was an alliance atrocity.

[Eto Demerzel]

Yet Lei'shens heart still held the spark and gave wrathion visions in the same manner it gave them to ra'den when he ate it. You put Jaina too much on a pedestal plain and simple

Let me summarize my argument on this:

- Jaina expresses she wants to absorb Lei Shen power and gives you the staff to do it.
- You carry the staff to the room where you fight Lei Shen and kill him and place the staff in the middle of the room.
- You return the staff to Jaina and she says she feels the staff has been empowered a lot and she says that she will be able to destroy Orgrimmar walls over Garrosh head.
- The next two expansions she does nothing relevant.
- The next time she appears in public, she raises a several tonns ship from the deepths of an ocean. She makes the ship fly and teleports it on her own to Lordaeron, where she uses her powers to clean Sylvannas most empowered blight (which has never been done by anyone) and she even destroys the walls of Lordaeron by firing dozens of Arcane Blasts from her airship cannons.

Cant you see that (aside from bad writting), there has been something that empowered Jaina QUITE a LOT and the only logical explanation is that she actually got a part of Lei Shen power?

There are other factors to take into account:

- While Wrathion gets a vision from the Heart of Lei Shen, he does not seems to get any new power or strength.
- Aman'Thul power was channeled through Ra to empower Nozdormu and make him the Warden of Time... so probably his power, even a part of it, should be related, if Wrathion got Aman'Thul power, he could have gained power over time and would have not needed Kairozdormu to enact his plot over Warlords. He could have done it on his own.
- If, like Merhunes says, Wrathion got the titan soul piece inside... how did the Legion (like Merhunes said again) got that piece back without Wrathion even noticing?

Considering what she did afterwards with all that power, not playing a large role in the siege of Orgrimmar, being utterly wrecked during Garrosh's trial, barely able to shield herself in the zul'dazar trailer, I don't really see the basis for her being able to level cities on the fly.

She said she could topple Orgrimmar walls and, while it wasnt necessary on Siege of Orgrimmar, she did literally level the walls of Lordaeron with a huge flying ship empowered only by HER POWER. This is not up to debate, this is not speculation or a theory its an ingame cinematic... if you gonna put that on doubt then we cannot continue this debate anymore.

[Lolites]

She also literally says in the quest

you are banging your head againast a wall of stupidity, some people are not willing to accept reality, like for example Jaina was walking the streets and fireballing people and they still claim she only arrested them...

Infracted.

[Super Dickmann]

I've always imagined that Garrosh kept these prisoners originally as bargaining pieces should he have need of them, basically to ransom them back to the Alliance at some future point in the conflict. But when Garrosh brought the Heart of Y'Shaarj back to Orgrimmar it had a pretty strong effect on some of his True Horde compatriots, corrupting them with pride and causing the majority of the excesses we see in the Valley of Strength during the SoO raid. Horde citizens gang-pressed into service, Alliance captives turned into target practice, Horde citizens turned into target practice in the Drag, and martial law in the streets enforced with draconian zeal by the Kor'kron. While Garrosh may have partially willed himself above the influence of the Old Gods (a statement that is itself very debatable in my view), I don't think a fair majority of his forces managed the same trick.

As said, I generally find it simply nonsensical from a logistical and in-character point of view, but it did happen, so if I had to fill in the gaps with headcanon it's in two ways - the first is with what I already mentioned. While Tides of War has the evacuation be entirely successful, it also gives Tanaris as the evacuation point. It ends positively there, but the Mists intro which chronologically takes place only a little while after has the victory at sea in Tanaris mentioned. Garrosh wasn't after the civilians per se, but he managed to nab a number of them at said location as a side-effect, thus resolving the logistical problem.

The others tie into bits of orcish culture - the type of orcish mindset that Garrosh and others are exemplary of don't really mind killing civilians on the battlefield during a fight, since it's essentially their fault, civilians don't really exist as a defined class, as stemming from how on Draenor everyone had to carry their own weight and people who couldn't fight at all were a burden on their clan. But killing them off the field, when they're entirely passive, is dishonorable, hence why Garrosh chastises Ishi about his idea of killing people in their sleep or as babies. At the same time however, doing manual labour and especially captivity is a form of humiliation dating as far back as the orcs themselves being subject to the ogres and while death acknowledges you as a warrior, even if you never stood a chance, captivity reduces you below that. Ergo, those they nabbed were kept around as captives and to do work, and when Garrosh grabbed the Heart, those left by that point were made examples of, with the way in which it was done and the pettiness of the display tying into how the Heart affected those who weren't strong-willed.

This is all headcanon for reference, but I think it holds together, though the last bit I'm a bit skeptical of, simply because making examples of enemies is widespread and when it comes to those slated for execution among the Darkspear or the warlocks, the former were actual rebel combatants and the latter were the culmination of a longstanding policy, so I wouldn't really chalk it up to corruption. Ditto vendors and the like being ready to fight you - it's their home being attacked after all. Even in Cataclysm Garrosh nearly kills the PC for being tangentially involved in fel - with the other races having turned against him, he'd simply see no reason to continue tolerating warlocks and did what he'd have liked to do from the start.

@Soon-TM

Wasn't me, might have been @Mehrunes . I've mentioned how Alliance characters go neutral while Horde ones die, or how the Alliance loses lands while Horde loses characters, but not the referenced line.

[Mehrunes]

The thing is, alliance has always responded, never started a conflict on their own. People keep claiming Camp Taurajo as an example of alliance killing civilians despite Baine stating otherwise, Horde literally created an extermination camp on Hillsbrad, used plague against living and unliving, every single being raised by Sylvannas was asked to do her bidding or be killed again, Goblins (which you seem to consider innocent and weak creatures) are responsible for empowering both Garrosh and Sylvannas armies to their peak and even following both of them AFTER being deposed (remember Blackfuse? remember Gallywix?).

Aside from Alterac Valley, Vanilla Barrens, Mulgore, Howling Fjords, starting the previous faction war, restarting the previous faction war after a ceasefire, Stormheim, Silithus or Anduin violating the agreed rules of the Gathering and letting a pretender to Sylvanas' throne in because contrary to what he promised he did not vet the people from his side. The tale of how Alliance is a poor innocent flower child that only ever responds to the Horde and never stats things on its own is nothing more than a lie and it was the case since goddamn vanilla.

Also, Baine didn't deny that civilians died at Taurajo. Even the Alliance commander there didn't deny it. All Baine said was that the attack was justified, while Tauren being angry over it are not. Which of course he would say, given how he's an Alliance sycophant and an asset. And the camp in Hillsbrad was not a Horde camp. Stillwater betrayed the Forsaken and got executed for his actions there. And newly risen are given the choice to join the Forsaken (not necessarily as military as well), die again or go their merry way like Voss did (as long as they don't turn against the Forsaken).

Honestly, i dont even know why are you trying to lecture me on conflicts about the alliance were every single battle they have fought is a literal response to a horde escalation, and as i mentioned, alliance could literally have smashed the horde to pieces several times and keep pardoning them as nothing. We (as people) know that it is bad writting, but the explanation in the game is everything about morality and if you dont get it, please just try to follow lil'Anduin life from Cataclysm forward. It may be poors writting, it may be annoying, but it is nonetheless the story we are playing.

The Alliance only exists as a faction because the Horde suffers from an amnesia every time they depose a Warchief and they forget why they followed the Warchief's war against the Alliance in the first place. BfA ended with multiple Alliance characters saying how Sylvanas' army was larger than those of the Alliance and Horde traitors combined.

[Combatbutler]

Let me summarize my argument on this:

- Jaina expresses she wants to absorb Lei Shen power and gives you the staff to do it.
- You carry the staff to the room where you fight Lei Shen and kill him and place the staff in the middle of the room.
- You return the staff to Jaina and she says she feels the staff has been empowered a lot and she says that she will be able to destroy Orgrimmar walls over Garrosh head.

You missed a step, the staff floats into the direction of the ceiling and power from it channels into the staff, Jaina then feels that power

- The next two expansions she does nothing relevant.
- The next time she appears in public, she raises a several tonns ship from the deepths of an ocean. She makes the ship fly and teleports it on her own to Lordaeron, where she uses her powers to clean Sylvannas most empowered blight (which has never been done by anyone) and she even destroys the walls of Lordaeron by firing dozens of Arcane Blasts from her airship cannons.

Cant you see that (aside from bad writting), there has been something that empowered Jaina QUITE a LOT and the only logical explanation is that she actually got a part of Lei Shen power?

The battle at undercity is the outlier, afterwards she does not display such power again and is easily outclassed by Azshara later on.

- While Wrathion gets a vision from the Heart of Lei Shen, he does not seems to get any new power or strength.
- Aman'Thul power was channeled through Ra to empower Nozdormu and make him the Warden of Time... so probably his power, even a part of it, should be related, if Wrathion got Aman'Thul power, he could have gained power over time and would have not needed Kairozdormu to enact his plot over Warlords. He could have done it on his own.
- If, like Merhunes says, Wrathion got the titan soul piece inside... how did the Legion (like Merhunes said again) got that piece back without Wrathion even noticing?

How would Jaina not have noticed her staff lost its main power then?

She said she could topple Orgrimmar walls and, while it wasnt necessary on Siege of Orgrimmar, she did literally level the walls of Lordaeron with a huge flying ship empowered only by HER POWER. This is not up to debate, this is not speculation or a theory its an ingame cinematic... if you gonna put that on doubt then we cannot continue this debate anymore.

And we have an ingame cinematic, with her being steamrolled in Zuldazar intro and then being taken by Sylvanas minions at the beginning of shadowlands, where she is constantly being beaten and stuffed in a cage again, though they might change the later part.

[Mehrunes]

Im not talking about the quest representation, im talking about what she asks, she tells you to place the staff on the room and it would drain the power from Lei Shen. Do you think draining magic is a surgical precise movement where you specify "NO, DONT ABSORB MAGIC FROM THIS AREA, JUST ABSORB THIS OTHER PRECISE AREA!".

Although im not going to agree on this, lets move forward because we are moving far away from the topic... my point regarding Jaina's strength is that she is actually able to topple cities (no matter where her power comes from, if from bad writting or from bad lore) and she does not do it.

Except the staff performs a spell effect when put in the quest location and all the magical tendrils or whatever you want to call them go to the ceiling in a small radius and do fuck all about Lei Shen. If you kill Lei Shen in the corner he's not even remotely touched by them.

[Ardenaso]

I've always imagined that Garrosh kept these prisoners originally as bargaining pieces should he have need of them, basically to ransom them back to the Alliance at some future point in the conflict. But when Garrosh brought the Heart of Y'Shaarj back to Orgrimmar it had a pretty strong effect on some of his True Horde compatriots, corrupting them with pride and causing the majority of the excesses we see in the Valley of Strength during the SoO raid. Horde citizens gang-pressed into service, Alliance captives turned into target practice, Horde citizens turned into target practice in the Drag, and martial law in the streets enforced with draconian zeal by the Kor'kron. While Garrosh may have partially willed himself above the influence of the Old Gods (a statement that is itself very debatable in my view), I don't think a fair majority of his forces managed the same trick.

this could be believable, after all there's also Darkspears and other non-loyalists in the target practices

[Katsutomai]

The battle at undercity is the outlier, afterwards she does not display such power again and is easily outclassed by Azshara later on.

You mean Azshara the single most powerful Mage to ever exist on Azeroth? The one empowered by an Old God? That Azshara? The one with tens of thousands of years of experience compared to Jaina?

[Mehrunes]

So... being the apprendite of the predecessor of the last Kirin Tor Archmage, a member of the Council of Six and (by Antonidas words) having the potential to become the greatest sorcerer in the history is not enough merit right?

Yes, potential for power is not the same as current power. That's... kinda what the word "potential" indicates. Again, in the very same book as the one in which she became the leader of the Council of Six because of that prophecy she failed to do literally anything to someone she wanted to kill while attacking that person with all of her might.

Aside from Khadgar and probably Azshara, there is no stronger mage in the world than her. And your fragment about Tides of War just gives more power to my speculation that she actually got a part of Lei Shen strength, since Tides of War happens BEFORE her staff absorbed strength.

Right now. That says nothing about Jaina ~4 years ago. And my fragment from Tides of War does no such thing because Jaina was utterly failing in combat even in War Cimes (to the point she got nearly killed by a meaningless twerp and had to be saved by a divine intervention from Chi Ji) which happens AFTER Isle of Thunder.

She used her staff to absorb power from the room he just had died, who cares if she though the power was on the room or on the dead body? She instructed you to drain power from the room and the body was in it...

And the draining effect that activates when you put the staff in position doesn't even look in Lei Shen's corpse general direction. The staff drains just the vicinity of the dais that Lei-Shen was using throughout the fight that was supposedly his "source of power".

Actually, i found the source of this and its not deeply explained nor confirmed, the answer is a question from a dev:

There is no confirmation about it, just some sort of "posibility", and even with that, lets pretend, for the sake of this argument that this dev is actually confirming that Legion Invasions targeted the Titan pieces... how could they possess the Aman'thul one if literally NOBODY KNEW where Wrathion was? Nobody was chasing him, he never mentioned the legion abducting him, so if your theory that actually Wrathion got the piece of Aman'Thul soul is right, we are missing quite a bit of lore related to this that Wrathion does not remember (or not care) which is extremelly doubtful or rather, like Ion said on an interview in Gamescon, what Sargeras has are PIECES OF SOULS, not the entire titans. As he says, if Aggrammar was complete, he could just stomp us, how could mere Shivarras contain a full Titan let alone the whole pantheon?

Us not knowing where Wrathion was doesn't preclude the Legion from being able to find him. Eonar was hidden in a sanctuary in a dark corner of the cosmos but the Legion still managed to crawl up her ass. Also, we literally saw Wrathion getting the same warning from Aman'thul of the Pantheon's fall that Ra did when he got possessed by Aman'thul's soul, so it's not exactly just a theory that Wrathion got his soul.

[Super Dickmann]

this could be believable, after all there's also Darkspears and other non-loyalists in the target practices

Executing captured combatants involved in a violent attempt to overthrow you is a fair deal different from shooting civilians you've kept in a basement for no real reason for ages.

[Mehrunes]

Wasn't me, might have been @Mehrunes . I've mentioned how Alliance characters go neutral while Horde ones die, or how the Alliance loses lands while Horde loses characters, but not the referenced line.

What might have been me?

[Saltysquidoon]

The Alliance only exists as a faction because the Horde suffers from an amnesia every time they depose a Warchief and they forget why they followed the Warchief's war against the Alliance in the first place. BfA ended with multiple Alliance characters saying how Sylvanas' army was larger than those of the Alliance and Horde traitors combined.

That's a big call to make when talking about the three-time world war losers that have twice only been allowed to live at the Alliance's pleasure.

[Combatbutler]

You mean Azshara the single most powerful Mage to ever exist on Azeroth? The one empowered by an Old God? That Azshara? The one with tens of thousands of years of experience compared to Jaina?

If she had a literal piece of a titan and a titan keeper at her disposal, do you think she would have been so utterly outclassed?

[Super Dickmann]

What might have been me?

The guy Soon-TM was quoting here: "Someone in these boards said that the ultimate difference between Horde and the Alliance is that, while both do resort to some pretty !@#$ed up stuff from time to time, only the former has to answer for it."