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  1. #281
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    This is all headcanon for reference, but I think it holds together, though the last bit I'm a bit skeptical of, simply because making examples of enemies is widespread and when it comes to those slated for execution among the Darkspear or the warlocks, the former were actual rebel combatants and the latter were the culmination of a longstanding policy, so I wouldn't really chalk it up to corruption. Ditto vendors and the like being ready to fight you - it's their home being attacked after all. Even in Cataclysm Garrosh nearly kills the PC for being tangentially involved in fel - with the other races having turned against him, he'd simply see no reason to continue tolerating warlocks and did what he'd have liked to do from the start.
    I think the corruption is responsible because even as Horde you actually free those NPC's gang-pressed into service. Those are not vendor NPC's "defending their home," they're very obviously being pressed into a combat role, and when you kill their Kor'kron overseers they run off, they're not there to fight on their own recognizance. The rest of the vendors have their abodes boarded up or blocked off, protecting themselves from the Kor'kron and not from the PC raid bursting into the city. Y'Shaarj's influence probably amped up whatever feelings these NPC's were having that led them to join Garrosh to begin with - sentiments of Orcish superiority, hatred of the Alliance, etc. etc.

    I mean in the very midst of being invaded the Kor'kron are conducting purges on their own down in the Cleft of Shadow, which makes zero sense when you're already under siege. But if you're talking about people who are being driven by external corruption it does make a degree of sense - they're not thinking properly, their passions being stoked to insane heights by the influence of Y'Shaarj.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    That's a big call to make when talking about the three-time world war losers that have twice only been allowed to live at the Alliance's pleasure.
    Twice? One is the Alliance scoring a victory against like a sixth of the Old Horde (and they still failed to capture all the present Orc clans), but what is supposed to be the second one? Is it MoP where Alliance ceded land to the Horde like a "true victor" or BfA, which I already described?


    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The guy Soon-TM was quoting here: "Someone in these boards said that the ultimate difference between Horde and the Alliance is that, while both do resort to some pretty !@#$ed up stuff from time to time, only the former has to answer for it."
    Ah, not me then. Good quote though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  3. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    If she had a literal piece of a titan and a titan keeper at her disposal, do you think she would have been so utterly outclassed?
    Versus what could be 20,000+ years of experience and an Old God bolstering her strength.. Hm. You tell me.

  4. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think the corruption is responsible because even as Horde you actually free those NPC's gang-pressed into service. Those are not vendor NPC's "defending their home," they're very obviously being pressed into a combat role, and when you kill their Kor'kron overseers they run off, they're not there to fight on their own recognizance. The rest of the vendors have their abodes boarded up or blocked off, protecting themselves from the Kor'kron and not from the PC raid bursting into the city. Y'Shaarj's influence probably amped up whatever feelings these NPC's were having that led them to join Garrosh to begin with - sentiments of Orcish superiority, hatred of the Alliance, etc. etc.

    I mean in the very midst of being invaded the Kor'kron are conducting purges on their own down in the Cleft of Shadow, which makes zero sense when you're already under siege. But if you're talking about people who are being driven by external corruption it does make a degree of sense - they're not thinking properly, their passions being stoked to insane heights by the influence of Y'Shaarj.
    The press ganged part I'll give you, since some (though not all), do give up when you off the nearby Kor'kron, but the boarded up parts and defending themselves from the Kor'kron thing I think is a more general bit about securing themselves before an invasion and to avoid being thrown into the fighting rather than some specific allegiance.

    As for the latter part, I wouldn't say it's irrational. The warlocks know Garrosh has them in their sights, killing them as theatrically as he did might be down to passions running high, but killing them in general was both something he'd obviously wanted to do for a fair while and reasonable in the sense of them being the likeliest to join the rebels and also being massively dangerous. See also the Doomguard that one of the NPCs sends after the Kor'kron.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  5. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by Katsutomai View Post
    Versus what could be 20,000+ years of experience
    Night elves have not even existed for 20k years lol

    and an Old God bolstering her strength.. Hm. You tell me.
    Having the fraction of a being that could crush the most powerful old god itself with his bare hands, you tell me ;P

  6. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The guy Soon-TM was quoting here: "Someone in these boards said that the ultimate difference between Horde and the Alliance is that, while both do resort to some pretty !@#$ed up stuff from time to time, only the former has to answer for it."
    Keep ignoring scope. Keep ignoring the Alliance perpetually stuck in the reacting role. Keep ignoring that the Alliance "answers" to the Horde for their acts in the form of being murdered in the massacre du jour.

    You disappoint me.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2020-06-29 at 01:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  7. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Night elves have not even existed for 20k years lol



    Having the fraction of a being that could crush the most powerful old god itself with his bare hands, you tell me ;P
    From what I've read Tyrande was nearly 14,000 years old during the 3rd War. We have no clue exactly how old Azshara is. I don't believe we've ever been told exactly what Jaina got from her staff, have we?

  8. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Twice? One is the Alliance scoring a victory against like a sixth of the Old Horde (and they still failed to capture all the present Orc clans), but what is supposed to be the second one? Is it MoP where Alliance ceded land to the Horde like a "true victor" or BfA, which I already described?
    The second war ended in total military defeat for the horde and the capture of their de jure absolute dictator. The 'Garrosh affair' (the 3.5 war?) similarly ended in the capture of the de jure absolute dictator of the horde and the surrender of it's standing forces (based off your comments about BFA 'traitors' I doubt you're willing to argue Vol'jin's rebels were representing the horde). I don't think there's any real way to describe how bfa ended, with a peace treaty won through slyvanas spilling her spaghetti?
    If the horde wants to win a war maybe they should try not collapsing into a civil war occasionally.

    The fact that the alliance is apparently legendarily bad at setting peace terms cannot invalidate the above.

  9. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Keep ignoring scope. Keep ignoring the Alliance perpetually stuck in the reacting role. Keep ignoring that the Alliance "answers" to the Horde for their acts in the form of being murdered in the massacre du jour.

    You disappoint me.
    Why would @Super Dickmann ignoring the lie of Alliance being perpetually stuck in the reacting role be disappointing? And last time I checked, when Alliance does bad shit (that is then completely brushed under the carpet by valiant Alliance posters), the Horde suffers that "answer" too, so the difference you thought you had in you gotcha isn't actually a difference. Likewise, difference in scope (and it's not like the Horde is blowing up cities left and right, aside from those two instances - and Theramore was the most valid target on Azeroth - the scope of other Horde actions is the same as the scope of Alliance actions) isn't a justification for Alliance's wrongdoings to be completely ignored all the time by the narrative of the game itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  10. #290
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EntertainmentNihilist View Post
    Pretty sure the alliance actions in the southern barrens were in response to horde aggression in Ashenvale. You know...the reason Cairne stood up to Garrosh and died.

    Garrosh wanted to conquer Kalimdor for "The Horde", at the expense of nature and all the other peoples. All the War in Cata and MoP was a result of his warmongering BS. Theramore was unjustified because of his intent.

    Honestly, I feel Jaina would have been justified in destroying Orgimmar. That would have ended the threat once and for all and prevented more bloodshed in the long run.
    Garrosh didn’t want to just conquer all of kalimdor in cata that didn’t come till after. He was trying to get resources for his people so they wouldn’t starve. the horde tried to trade peacefully with the night elfs before the twilight hammer screwed it up and over aggressive carine challenged him for no reason because of it.

    With peaceful options fallen away garrosh went to take the resources by force which is hard to blame him for when the hippie elf’s are hoarding multiple massive forest while you live in a crappy desert starving to death.

  11. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Katsutomai View Post
    From what I've read Tyrande was nearly 14,000 years old during the 3rd War. We have no clue exactly how old Azshara is.
    The dark trolls settled around the well of eternity 15k years ago and then it took some time for them to transform, Tyrande was much older before that got retconned.

    I don't believe we've ever been told exactly what Jaina got from her staff, have we?
    That was the point it was power from the Thunderking, but not his powersource. Which was a titan fragment. If jaina had a piece of a Titan at her disposal, as has been argued, she should have been able to d so much more.
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2020-06-29 at 02:03 PM.

  12. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The attack was justified, but not the methods, especially since the mana-bomb is not only the WoW equivalent of a nuclear bomb (leaving the place basically inhabitable) but because using it goes against this "ERMAHGERD HONOR LOK'TAR OGAR HONORABLE DEATH" that the orcs (and Garrosh) are supposed to have.
    - - - Updated - - -

    I already talked about this tho. lmao

  13. #293
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eto Demerzel View Post
    I mean, technically speaking, a part of Aman'Thul soul which was used by Lei Shen "to be stronger than the Lich King in 1v1" is inside Antonidas Staff (which is in Jaina's bank getting dust)... it was stated she could decimate the whole Orgrimmar alone...
    This isn’t the case. Jaina has any left over power that was in the throne of thunder after lei Shen was defeated but not any part of ama’thuls soul. Warion took lei shen‘s actual power by eating his heart and Jiana could only take on org with the focusing iris not without it.

  14. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    The second war ended in total military defeat for the horde and the capture of their de jure absolute dictator. The 'Garrosh affair' (the 3.5 war?) similarly ended in the capture of the de jure absolute dictator of the horde and the surrender of it's standing forces (based off your comments about BFA 'traitors' I doubt you're willing to argue Vol'jin's rebels were representing the horde). I don't think there's any real way to describe how bfa ended, with a peace treaty won through slyvanas spilling her spaghetti?
    If the horde wants to win a war maybe they should try not collapsing into a civil war occasionally.

    The fact that the alliance is apparently legendarily bad at setting peace terms cannot invalidate the above.
    Vol'jin was most certainly a traitor when he was acting against Garrosh (even Baine argued he was not only a traitor, but a traitor so traitorous Garrosh was in the right to have him killed in a damp cave and he made Vol'jin admit that in front of the entire world). Up to a point. At the start of 5.4 Garrosh kicked out all non-believers out of the Horde.

    Anyway, by the time Varian got to making his laughable threats Vol'jin already ascended to Warchief, so Varian was faced with the stark majority of the Horde members that opposed Garrosh (even most Orcs went against him) that filled Garrosh's place. And it's with that part of the Horde, not Garrosh, that Varian parlayed (another reason why referring to Garrosh's True Horde tree house as the Horde that the Alliance graciously let live is inaccurate is because that wasn't exactly the treatment True Horde got). And that parlaying included the Alliance ceding Azshara to the Horde (and completely ignoring all the land they lost to Sylvanas), because for all of Varian's bluster, the Alliance was in no position to fight anymore.

    Because if it was not for Horde's internal strife, the Alliance would have continued the track record of getting their teeth kicked in by the Horde straight into the grave. There's a reason why the Alliance managed to lose that war even in the timeline where Jaina did destroy Orgrimmar and that's because the Alliance was weaker. Well, that and because the Alliance saw fit to choose a moron that didn't know the concept of overextension and who was fighting the first war of his life as their supreme commander.
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2020-06-29 at 02:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  15. #295
    The Unstoppable Force Lorgar Aurelian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    That doesn't however cover the Sunreaver guards she killed before she even charged the Sunreavers with anything. I.e. before the Sunreavers denied her ultimatum that would give her any grounds for her to kill her (I mean, obviously putting aside how the entire Purge was one giant power abuse as the leader of the Council of Six doesn't have this sort of individual power). Even with Jaina's murder spree while she walks around the square just being buggy behavior, Sunreaver blood is still directly on her hands (and plenty more is on them indirectly due to her letting Silver Covenant lunatics loose on the city).
    Assuming there standing around and waving there sticks isn’t just a game thing then ya she still blows a couple away even if it’s not the feeling civ’s in question.

  16. #296
    I don't know how to explain it, but every single time the horde commit a genocide, there are always pro horde who say " it's justified, X killed a few random NPC there ! "
    ( most recent example, the Goblins killed in Silithus supposedly started the fourth war. While we now know that Sylvanas planned this war regardless of anything, and that still didn't justify the burning of Teldrassil )

    You don't have to search for the cause, the horde always react way of the chart anyway.

    But in the end, the responsible are neither the horde nor the alliance, its the Void.


    Without the Void there would be no burning Legion

    Without the burning Legion there would be no Horde,

    Without the Horde there would be no faction war.

    Period.
    Last edited by Engal; 2020-06-29 at 02:28 PM.

  17. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by Shinrael View Post
    I am very interested to know first - where did you get the information that Theramore was sending troops to Northwatch, if the book is our only source on those events?
    ... The Game? The game where we had a line of tanks and soldiers leaving Theramoore? The game where Theramoore set up bases in Southern Barrens and had troops in Durotar?

    The game which addressed that orcs felt this was a violation of their treaty with the humans and was to the best of my knowledge, NEVER brought up in the book?


    So again... where's your citation that it was?
    Twas brillig

  18. #298
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Executing captured combatants involved in a violent attempt to overthrow you is a fair deal different from shooting civilians you've kept in a basement for no real reason for ages.
    well yeah, of course; Garrosh was already just fukked up by the time he got the heart
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  19. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by Fleugen View Post
    Technically evacuated.

    As in, evacuated so that the civilians could be captured on the water and brought to Orgrimmar.

    In other words, not actually evacuated, but led into a trap for later torture.

    (Source: Theramore Prisoners in Siege of Orgrimmar)
    aah oke, now i get it.

  20. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    I don't know how to explain it, but every single time the horde commit a genocide, there are always pro horde who say " it's justified, X killed a few random NPC there ! "
    Don't forget the part where when you point out the difference in scope, it's handwaved and you're called a liar, which is apparently somehow ok when Horde posters do it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

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