I think wow needs to remove alternative progression or fundamentally change it.

[arkanon]

This is incorrect. Casual is obviously about difficulty level too.

You can't "casually" beat the hardest level of difficult in a game and say that it only took you 30 min - that means you're hardcore and quick.

Out of interest, say a newer player has experienced friends who have 12/12M on farm, and they bring you along - 1 shotting nearly every boss. By your logic, they are "hardcore" now? Beating the game on the hardest difficulty?

What about a person who is 12/12H, 6/12M, and the above scenario repeats, are they now Hardcore? Where do you draw the line?

I have said this so many times i cant believe we have to go through it again - hardcore Vs casual comes down to MINDSET and how the individual approaches the game. If they spend hours researching and discussing classes / specs, have full consumables for every pull, the best gear available to them, and absolutely crush it on the meter, but only have time in the evenings to play 6 hours a week, they are now causal? Even though they perform in the top 5% of players in the world, they are casual because they dont play enough to be considered hardcore?

What about a player whos focus is on transmog and mounts - they farm endlessly - 10-12 hours a day, 5-7 days a week. They farm content and work towards their goal - they have read every guide, know every trick, and have leveled additional characters specifically to increase their chances of items. They raid a couple of times a week, mostly pugs, and have gone as far as 12/12H, 4/12M - they only do this for the xmog. By your definition, they are causal, because they are not 12/12 Mythic every week?

[Malkiah]

I was always left with the question though ... but why?

because of two fundamentally opposing forces:
high end players vs. casual players, and multiple difficulty tiers.

two months of play before you're ready for mythic isn't different now to TBC, in fact it's probably less time than it would take to fully level up a character and then gear it up on top of that.

there has always been a not insignificant time sink for a new player to start from scratch and get to the point where they're doing the highest level of content in the game.
most of the alternate progression isn't for new players anyways, it's for alts or intermediate players who come and go to quickly get caught back up from a point earlier in the expansion's content cycle.

[A Chozo]

Out of interest, say a newer player has experienced friends who have 12/12M on farm, and they bring you along - 1 shotting nearly every boss. By your logic, they are "hardcore" now? Beating the game on the hardest difficulty?

What about a person who is 12/12H, 6/12M, and the above scenario repeats, are they now Hardcore? Where do you draw the line?

I have said this so many times i cant believe we have to go through it again - hardcore Vs casual comes down to MINDSET and how the individual approaches the game. If they spend hours researching and discussing classes / specs, have full consumables for every pull, the best gear available to them, and absolutely crush it on the meter, but only have time in the evenings to play 6 hours a week, they are now causal? Even though they perform in the top 5% of players in the world, they are casual because they dont play enough to be considered hardcore?

What about a player whos focus is on transmog and mounts - they farm endlessly - 10-12 hours a day, 5-7 days a week. They farm content and work towards their goal - they have read every guide, know every trick, and have leveled additional characters specifically to increase their chances of items. They raid a couple of times a week, mostly pugs, and have gone as far as 12/12H, 4/12M - they only do this for the xmog. By your definition, they are causal, because they are not 12/12 Mythic every week?

That's a lot of gynastics that go nowhere.

If someone is carried into 12/12 M they are still casual because they aren't doing the content, they are being carried.
If someone spend all this time in the game and have all that knowledge, they aren't casual either.

Dude who plays 10-12 hours a day picking flowers isn't a casual WoW player either.

I'm not sure how you got confused by this stuff but it's kinda easy to divide players by casual and hardcore, and of course it can be analyzed by case.

[munkeyinorbit]

It's not about gear. Gear progression works pretty well - if you're 430, you do content that's tune for 430s and drops 440s, etc. That means it's always interesting because you're doing content that's built for your level.

That's mostly not what progression is about in wow anymore. It's, I'm 465 item level but I need the mechagon essence, so I have to go there. It's, let me get a few extra echoes for another expedient rank 3 so i'm going to run lfr on my 475 character. That's what "alternative" progression is - it's stuff that isn't tied to character gear level or power that gives upgrades in return for investing time. It's lame because the difficulty is not tied to the character power level.

I don't know why you put alternate in quotes because you don't know what alternate progression means. As someone who actually played vanilla, alternate progression means getting gear from sources that are outside the traditional path which is raiding. This means mythic plus and other abominations like warfronts and emmisarry chests. Systems are different. Esscences system and corruption can be aquired through all activities. If all activities give it then it is hardly any alternative progression.

Now that you have been corrected please revise your statement so it is correct.

[arkanon]

That's a lot of gynastics that go nowhere.

If someone is carried into 12/12 M they are still casual because they aren't doing the content, they are being carried.
If someone spend all this time in the game and have all that knowledge, they aren't casual either.

Dude who plays 10-12 hours a day picking flowers isn't a casual WoW player either.

I'm not sure how you got confused by this stuff but it's kinda easy to divide players by casual and hardcore, and of course it can be analyzed by case.

You failed to address any points raised but instead just repeated your personal opinion. You avoided all the grey areas i presented to show that there is no fixed line where a player switches from being causal to hardcore - the exact point i raised. If you are not going to address the core discussion point, dont then attempt to insult me for "gymnastics".

As i stated, for your 'opinion' to be an objective fact, there would need to be a firm line where someone stops being a causal, and starts being hardcore. This would be a tangible, measurable point. This is not the case, as i explained, it is a frame of mind and personal choice.

Is someone who plays 40 hours a week and is 11/12M hardcore? What about someone who plays 30 hours a week and is 10/12M? What about someone who plays 10 hours a week and is 12/12M? What happens if someone is 12/12M, but drops back to only 5 hours a week while they wait for future content - do they stop being hardcore and start being a casual?

What about pvp? Exactly what rating does someone becomes hardcore? What key level = hardcore vs casual?

You cant and wont answer these questions, because as i clearly explained, there is no measurable system to define a casual/hardcore player. I have friends who are 10/12M, and play 30+ hours per week, but would be some of the lower performing players in the Mythic team - are they hardcore? They contribute, its certainly not a full carry, but they are not high performing players.

[Krakan]

This is incorrect. Casual is obviously about difficulty level too.

You can't "casually" beat the hardest level of difficult in a game and say that it only took you 30 min - that means you're hardcore and quick.

It just means your experienced... if you play video games a lot and enjoy them for the challenge eventually starting on hard is just the default.

- - - Updated - - -

I've played consistently since wrath and there's always been a Grind X to get ready for Y. Go play on a private server to remind yourself lmao

There were always catch up systems they were never designed as replacements to progression...

[A Chozo]

You cant and wont answer these questions, because as i clearly explained, there is no measurable system to define a casual/hardcore player. I have friends who are 10/12M, and play 30+ hours per week, but would be some of the lower performing players in the Mythic team - are they hardcore? They contribute, its certainly not a full carry, but they are not high performing players.

You don't need a "measurable system" to define a casual/hardcore player. Those are words, they exist and have a meaning in this context, independently of all the mental gymnastics and irrelevant questions you keep posing.

It's kinda pointless to keep discussing this you when you look at someone who plays FOURTY HOURS A WEEK doing 11/12M and doesn't know if that person is a hardcore player or not.

It's like you don't even know what the words mean.

[arkanon]

You don't need a "measurable system" to define a casual/hardcore player. Those are words, they exist and have a meaning in this context, independently of all the mental gymnastics and irrelevant questions you keep posing.

It's kinda pointless to keep discussing this you when you look at someone who plays FOURTY HOURS A WEEK doing 11/12M and doesn't know if that person is a hardcore player or not.

It's like you don't even know what the words mean.

Another non-reply. For what you are saying to be true, yes, there ABSOLUTELY needs to be a measurable system where someone crosses over from being a casual to hardcore. You are making the claim that it is easy to distinguish if a player is hardcore or casual, but remain entirely unable to define what that point is. You continue to be disingenuous with your replies, ignoring 95% of a post to focus on the one thing you feel supports your argument, without realizing that ironically, you simply proved me right.

So you have mockingly claimed that a person doing 40 hours a week and is 11/12M is obviously hardcore. Fair enough.

What about a person who plays 8 hours a week and is 11/12M?

What about a person who plays 50+ hours per week, and is 12/12H but have no interest in Mythic. Are they hardcore?

Should be very easy for you to answer.

[arkanon]

Let me try to help you both out. Your personal definition of casual versus hardcore doesn't matter. The key is, OP thinks that you should be able to fairly quickly gear up and get into raiding. That's the debate here. Stop it with the semantics.

Let me try to help you out. If you are going to reply to someone, at least understand what you are replying to. My entire point is that an individuals opinion on what is / is not casual is entirely irreverent. However, if you are also going to speak for OP, you should at least READ the op, which specifically mentions the game being Anti Casual.

"Now? Now the game has gone down a extremely anticasual mindset and I can't really grasp why..."

If you dont like the discussion at hand, you are welcome to simply not respond. Your interjection and attempt at talking down to other users has left you with egg on your face. You offered absolutely nothing on topic, and simply tried to be rude to two people having a discussion.........on a discussion board.

[Spacewalrus2010]

No I mean a guy made a project to full clear icc 10 normal using only dungeon blues with a pug he made. He did it to prove people used gear an excuse for poor play...

Very confused by this point being made here.

We're talking about the player base mindset. Not one specific example you can come up with. Generally speaking, people grinded out tokens in Wrath to get gear so they could do raids. If you truly just went into raiding with dungeon blue gear, then good for you. But you were most certainly not the norm back in those days.

[arkanon]

My point is that arguing over definitions is totally irrelevant. He said what he meant about 5 posts ago, that it shouldn't take long to get into mythic. That's all that's really important. You guys don't need to agree on a definition of casual vs. hardcore, that's not important. You can each choose your own, it's subjective.

And my point is OP specifically used the term "anticasual", meaning that it actually is important to define what that is, as its the core of their argument - that a CASUAL player should be able to quickly acquire gear. Again, i have said many times that i dont believe it can be defined, other than saying its a state of mind for the player themselves - so to some extent we agree on that.

If the argument was simply "any player should be able to gear quickly to get into mythic", then there is an entirely different discussion to have - what is this players previous experience? Are they simply someone who usually plays lfr/normal raids, and now because its end of expansion they should suddenly be gifted mythic quality gear? Is this player a mythic raider who took 1 tier off?

See those are two completely different players, and changes the argument a huge amount.

edit: i hope the irony is not lost on you here - you claim you wanted to stop two people from arguing over semantics, and your plan to do that is to.............argue over semantics.

[Spacewalrus2010]

My point is that arguing over definitions is totally irrelevant. He said what he meant about 5 posts ago, that it shouldn't take long to get into mythic. That's all that's really important. You guys don't need to agree on a definition of casual vs. hardcore, that's not important. You can each choose your own, it's subjective.

What you find important/not important, is clearly not the same as him. Why are you trying to talk him out of something that he brought up out of interest?

[arkanon]

Because "we need a precise definition" is usually just people being difficult and argumentative instead of engaging in real debate. It's pretending that you don't know what the person means when it's usually pretty obvious. It's just muddying the waters.

I REALLY hope that the irony of you continuing this debate with multiple people is not lost on you, considering your initial reply stated you wanted people to stop arguing over semantics, and you have done nothing but since then.

"hmmm, a fire - this gasoline should extinguish it!!!!"

[Krakan]

Very confused by this point being made here.

We're talking about the player base mindset. Not one specific example you can come up with. Generally speaking, people grinded out tokens in Wrath to get gear so they could do raids. If you truly just went into raiding with dungeon blue gear, then good for you. But you were most certainly not the norm back in those days.

Someone brought up gear as being comparable to the new systems and argued it worked the same way and I was simply showing how that wasn't true.

[Glorious Leader]

Someone brought up gear as being comparable to the new systems and argued it worked the same way and I was simply showing how that wasn't true.

The point was that it was an alternate progression system to RAIDING. And it wasn't the only one. Glyphs were still a thing and you needed to farm rep.

Current systems were implemented because they progressively gutted the alternate options to gear progression outside of raiding (valor/justice points) and shoveled people into lfr (and stopped making dungeons) and this culminated in WoD where their was content but incredible poor reward engineering so their was in reality no content because that content is not going to be consumed. Basically wow cant have nice things because SOME people want to raid log. I'd be all for valor and justice points making a come back, they awarded a full set of tier in ICC but people cried about that as well. Ultimately this thread is basically just another thinly veiled attempt to complain about other people having nice things as well.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok so let's get back on topic. He thinks that players who have been playing for a while and are pretty skilled such that they belong in mythic should be able to get into mythic a lot more quickly than they do now. What do you think?

I actually agree and to facilitate this im of the opinion that Mythic raids should not reward any gear at all and simple scale ilvl to whatever challenge the developers feel is tuned enough. You would never have to farm a thing.

[A Chozo]

I actually agree and to facilitate this im of the opinion that Mythic raids should not reward any gear at all and simple scale ilvl to whatever challenge the developers feel is tuned enough. You would never have to farm a thing.

Heh, this sounds cool, but imo it would be kinda... non-rpg to have a character defeat the big monsters and not get phat lootz.

But it would be rella cool if Blizzard had some game modes or special events where people's gear was equalized, for competition purposes, both for PvP and PvE.

A PvP Brawl Arena where fancy powers (corruptions, azerite traits, etc) were off and everyone was brought to the same ilvl;
A Weekly Event where you could enter a version of Mythic Ny'alotha that equalized everyone's gear, and the first X groups to complete it would be a box of COOKIES.

[Glorious Leader]

Heh, this sounds cool, but imo it would be kinda... non-rpg to have a character defeat the big monsters and not get phat lootz.

But it would be rella cool if Blizzard had some game modes or special events where people's gear was equalized, for competition purposes, both for PvP and PvE.

A PvP Brawl Arena where fancy powers (corruptions, azerite traits, etc) were off and everyone was brought to the same ilvl;
A Weekly Event where you could enter a version of Mythic Ny'alotha that equalized everyone's gear, and the first X groups to complete it would be a box of COOKIES.

In Mists they toyed with this idea in dungeons. It was basically a precursor to M+ except the ilvl was scaled.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Heh, this sounds cool, but imo it would be kinda... non-rpg to have a character defeat the big monsters and not get phat lootz.

But it would be rella cool if Blizzard had some game modes or special events where people's gear was equalized, for competition purposes, both for PvP and PvE.

A PvP Brawl Arena where fancy powers (corruptions, azerite traits, etc) were off and everyone was brought to the same ilvl;
A Weekly Event where you could enter a version of Mythic Ny'alotha that equalized everyone's gear, and the first X groups to complete it would be a box of COOKIES.

Or, better yet, don't add shitty systems like Corruption/Azerite traits/Essences to begin with. You don't have to disable something that isn't there, and it makes balancing a significantly simpler task. See the repeated nerfs to Infinite Stars for understanding just how fucking awful the Corruption system is from a design perspective. It threw a ton of specs way off base, buffed some of them to insane levels, and then they proceeded to attempt to fix it by nerfing it. Which feels shitty for anyone using it because you feel punished for something that isn't your fault (unless you actually want to try to blame the playerbase for Blizzard failing at tuning).

[A Chozo]

Or, better yet, don't add shitty systems like Corruption/Azerite traits/Essences to begin with. You don't have to disable something that isn't there, and it makes balancing a significantly simpler task. See the repeated nerfs to Infinite Stars for understanding just how fucking awful the Corruption system is from a design perspective. It threw a ton of specs way off base, buffed some of them to insane levels, and then they proceeded to attempt to fix it by nerfing it. Which feels shitty for anyone using it because you feel punished for something that isn't your fault (unless you actually want to try to blame the playerbase for Blizzard failing at tuning).

Hey, c'mon now, what about the people who like those systems? Essences were fun as hell to me. If they do it again, I won't even care.

But since those things are tied to grind / droprates (like regular gear), that's why I proposed an equalized version of raids and pvp.

Remember that this forum and other forms of social media are tiny itty bubbles of the community and don't represent everyone's opinion. If players are feeling shitty with those systems, that's their fault for paying and playing shitty games.

[Glorious Leader]

Hey, c'mon now, what about the people who like those systems? Essences were fun as hell to me. If they do it again, I won't even care.

But since those things are tied to grind / droprates (like regular gear), that's why I proposed an equalized version of raids and pvp.

Remember that this forum and other forms of social media are tiny itty bubbles of the community and don't represent everyone's opinion. If players are feeling shitty with those systems, that's their fault for paying and playing shitty games.

Stuff like essences is needed in the game. The game needs to offer something at max lvl for progression that isn't strictly tied to raids. I think the azerite and necklace themselves were kinda lackluster especially compared to the Legion weapon system but the design goals are similar.