Raiding feels meaningless currently with to many forms of different progression

[Nnyco]

Million times better than 'raid or die'.

[Belloc]

I did Mythic in Legion and some in BFA and it didn't feel any more challenging than Heroic, the timings just felt tighter. People blow how hard mythic is out of proportion because they wanna gatekeep the top for exclusivity purposes. It's a big cool kids club circle jerk. That's why there's ever increasing hoops you have to jump through and people only care about world 1st.

The thing about Mythic raiding is that, for Mythic quality players, it's really not any more difficult, usually. Replace a bunch of your Mythic raiders with Heroic raiders, though, and it becomes significantly more difficult.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

I find it helps to think of it more like dark souls; defeating the raid bosses is the goal, not just a means to get gear. The fact that I can gear in M+ is irrelevant because gear is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. Mythic + is another, alternative end, where some people who love 5 man content can push super hard into that beyond the +15 gear cap, not for its own rewards, but for the enjoyment of playing the game.

[crakerjack]

I think the game could do with a few less raid modes (is there even a need for BOTH normal and HC to exist?) but I'm enjoying raiding overall. Being a mythic raider now feels a lot more prestigious/challenging than it did when I did it in WotLK for example.

Yea I think they need to scrap normal and make heroic the new normal and mythic the new heroic. Normal raids are too easy.

[kenn9530]

This is a big reason I only play Classic. I never really raided past Wrath, largely because this became the problem - gear was REALLY easy to get (even if not actually BIS), and all the difficulties made the value of raid gear much lower to me. I cleared Deathwing LFR on day 1 of the raid (remember, this is when LFR and Heroic launched on the same day). I got the LFR-level BIS sword off the end boss. Essentially, in one day, I was done with that expansion raiding. I just didn't care, and never started caring for any other expansion.

Classic though? One raid difficulty. One item level for a piece of gear. The stats are what they are, no RNG. It feels SO good! I'm missing maybe a few actual BIS pieces right now, but generally I have the best of what's available right now. AQ launches in a month, and I'll get to replace nearly every piece. Then, when Naxx comes, same story. Raiding feels worth it, and having actually attainable BIS lists is such a good thing for the game. No forced gameplay loops trying to get the 50th drop of the same item to bonus roll with just the right extra stats. That's fun in Diablo. It's not fun in WoW.

For me, raiding is a big reason why Classic has been so much fun. I expect the same feeling to maintain through, presumably, TBC and Wrath Classic releases. While Wrath was the start of super easy gear to acquire, and Heroic versions of the same loot, it was at such an early stage of that type of gameplay that it didn't feel bad. Once Wrath is "done", so will I be. The Retail version of the game would need to learn lots of lessons before people like me would return. Gameplay just feels more like a waste of time in BFA, and that's not what a game should be. I hope very much that things get better in Shadowlands and beyond - I do.

Gear means even less in classic as the content is cleared so fast it doesnt really matter what gear your wearing, if you wear the upgrades you get from the previous raids thats more than enough, gear shouldnt be your goal its the acheivement of killing the hardest version of the boss and maybe earning that raid mount before its 1 % drop chance.

[Saltysquidoon]

I did Mythic in Legion and some in BFA and it didn't feel any more challenging than Heroic, the timings just felt tighter. People blow how hard mythic is out of proportion because they wanna gatekeep the top for exclusivity purposes.

You realise what you just said would apply to heroic players for the vast vast majority of the player base right? Hard is entirely subject to skill and experience.

[Belloc]

I find it helps to think of it more like dark souls; defeating the raid bosses is the goal, not just a means to get gear. The fact that I can gear in M+ is irrelevant because gear is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. Mythic + is another, alternative end, where some people who love 5 man content can push super hard into that beyond the +15 gear cap, not for its own rewards, but for the enjoyment of playing the game.

The most annoying part of this is that the game is designed specifically to communicate this to players: Every new tier introduces higher ilvl loot. Every new expansion makes your old gear essentially worthless within a few levels. Even titanforging and corruption drives home the fact that your gear is replaceable at every level.

Anyone who plays WoW for the gear is ignoring some very obvious things that the system is shoving in their faces.

[Saltysquidoon]

Anyone who plays WoW for the gear is ignoring some very obvious things that the system is shoving in their faces.

I would never tell anyone how or why they should play the game. But I very much doubt most people who raid primarily or solely for gear would last very long (especially now raids dont drop tier).
After a few weeks when the upgrades stop flowing and you're on the 100th wipe on the same boss I doubt that type of player would want to stick around.

[Weeps]

I'm going to get a lot of flack but I don't give a shit.

1) M+ gear, regardless of difficulty, should never ever be better than raiding gear. Oh you did +25 key? Get normal raid gear, sorry buddy. Good job. Pat yourself on the back. It's a dungeon. Get raid gear, go farther in M+ for prestige. That's about it. The reward system for M+ should be cosmetics, not gear.

2) Remove current normal mode raid difficulty. Rename mythic to heroic like the days of old. And heroic becomes normal. LFR becomes normal. I dont give a shit if it makes LFR harder. Bring back flex raids like in MoP for LFR.

[slime]

I'm not sure why more choices isn't just the better way to go but OP seems to think we should have less choice in how we play.
OP is part of the reason we don't have the option of master loot anymore.

[msdos]

You realise what you just said would apply to heroic players for the vast vast majority of the player base right? Hard is entirely subject to skill and experience.

What? No, I don't follow. Are you trying to say new players find harder difficulties harder?? Okay, I don't disagree with that.

No I was referring to this slippery slope conversation, "Mythic isn't hard, being realm 1st is, no region 1st, no country 1st, no only world first mythic race is hard noob lol gg git gud"

[Kralljin]

Gear means even less in classic as the content is cleared so fast it doesnt really matter what gear your wearing

Gear matters more because it's rarer and not as easily replaceable, an essential point you're missing is that some people primarily play the game to improve their character, even without a certain type of content that requires it.

People also aren't grabbing a full load of Worldbuffs because they need it, but because it increases their power by an insane degree.

[Belloc]

I'm going to get a lot of flack but I don't give a shit.

1) M+ gear, regardless of difficulty, should never ever be better than raiding gear. Oh you did +25 key? Get normal raid gear, sorry buddy. Good job. Pat yourself on the back. It's a dungeon. Get raid gear, go farther in M+ for prestige. That's about it. The reward system for M+ should be cosmetics, not gear.

2) Remove current normal mode raid difficulty. Rename mythic to heroic like the days of old. And heroic becomes normal. LFR becomes normal. I dont give a shit if it makes LFR harder. Bring back flex raids like in MoP for LFR.

You're under the impression that dungeons are easier than raids. A +25 key is harder than Mythic raiding no matter how out of touch you are. It should have appropriate rewards and cosmetics are only ever appropriate in situations where item level is irrelevant. Challenge modes back in MoP? Sure, they locked your gear at max-level blues, so cosmetics made sense. Mythic+, however, becomes easier with gear and, therefore, cosmetics make absolutely no sense in Mythic+.

And, again, +25 keys are harder than any Mythic raid boss I've ever heard of.

[kaelix1]

No, the reason was that it came on the back of the success of TBC, which did the heavy lifting while WotLK saw next to no growth, and which actually was pretty hard.
Also the multiple difficulties crap came during WotLK so it's not really the best example.

Actually NO, the reason why WotLK was so popular was the end story of Arthas, Wotlk keep a stable 11mill sub over the years peaking at 12mill, even now the majority of polls put WOTLK as number one expansion above TBC

[Drusin]

What are your thoughts on how raiding/gearing is laid out?

Blizz has to design the game a certain way to give people things to do. What was there to do in Wrath? Not shit. This isn't to say wrath was a bad xpac but it's true. You level 1-80, then do normal dungeons, heroic dungeons and that's it. If you wanted to continue to play after that you'd have to raid, and what happens when you clear the raid or can't progress any further? Do dailies for rep? Do WG? Argent Tourney dailies?

I personally raided and when I wasn't doing that I was leveling new alts or living in WG, WG was fun as fuck during wrath, doing heroics, and mostly learning the game still since I started in BC. That isn't a lot of content.

[Liftinmammals]

Wrath was definitely the most fun I ever had in WoW. Truly enjoyed that content. Glad I had those years, but all good things must pass so that new things can emerge.

[dcc626]

i have a feeling this is all going to change in shadowlands. "The team is going to reduce the amount of loot that drops in Shadowlands raids." only 1 box a week (m+ and pvp boxes are the same box in shadowlands). the other side to no real rng (titan/war forging, corruption etc) is that you are just not going to get loot as often.

and people are going to complain. but its what we aked for, right?

[Weeps]

You're under the impression that dungeons are easier than raids. A +25 key is harder than Mythic raiding no matter how out of touch you are. It should have appropriate rewards and cosmetics are only ever appropriate in situations where item level is irrelevant. Challenge modes back in MoP? Sure, they locked your gear at max-level blues, so cosmetics made sense. Mythic+, however, becomes easier with gear and, therefore, cosmetics make absolutely no sense in Mythic+.

And, again, +25 keys are harder than any Mythic raid boss I've ever heard of.

So what? It’s a dungeon. Not a raid.

“Wow it’s so hard because of weird gimmicks added to make it annoying.”

M+ is not all-encompassing, class-wise. Therefore it is garbage and requires cosmetic only rewards or normal raid.

Pat yourself on the back buddy. You cleared a dungeon in time. Good for you. Pat pat.

[kenn9530]

Gear matters more because it's rarer and not as easily replaceable, an essential point you're missing is that some people primarily play the game to improve their character, even without a certain type of content that requires it.

People also aren't grabbing a full load of Worldbuffs because they need it, but because it increases their power by an insane degree.

It doesnt matter more at all, if your raiding in classic then your gear is more than sufficiant to clear any content in the game already, i bet a group of decent players could clear naxx in pre raid BiS or just basic MC geared with no issues, gear just make things easier and the leap between MC gear and naxx gear in classic was not that big of a difference.

[Belloc]

So what? It’s a dungeon. Not a raid.

“Wow it’s so hard because of weird gimmicks added to make it annoying.”

M+ is not all-encompassing, class-wise. Therefore it is garbage and requires cosmetic only rewards or normal raid.

Pat yourself on the back buddy. You cleared a dungeon in time. Good for you. Pat pat.

Aww, you jealous that better players than you can handle content that you're not cut out for? Does thinking of it as just "a dungeon" make it not count for you? That's adorable. I'd ruffle your hair if I could, you little scamp!