Raiding feels meaningless currently with to many forms of different progression

[Khallid]

Normal dungeons > Heroic dungeons > Mythic dungeons > Mythic+

LFR raid > Normal raid > Heroic raid > Mythic raid

You could literally not step foot into a raid and play Mythic+ as your main way of gearing, never seeing any content in raid beyond LFR just to experience the story, and you can hit item level 475.

Want to experience harder content? time commitment. Grinding dailies. RNG gear drops. find a guild. find 20 other people for mythic. Do visions. Do world bosses. Farm for gold to afford to raid. ect.

There is a reason that WOTLK had the biggest player base ever in Warcraft history, the game was easy. There was meaningful progression, when you were done gearing in dungeons for that patches current gear, you would look to find a 10 man or 25 man normal raiding guild. The content wasn't that hard, people had fun being able to clear the content, or learn the content together with their guild. I remember Naxx being easily puggable, Ulduar also wasn't half bad.

The point I am trying to make is that there's simply to many ways to get gear. Raids used to have this feeling of curiosity and people wanted to explore them. Instead of making it widely available via LFR, you had no other choice but to either commit to a guild to see the content, or you didn't get any better gear. It was that simple.

I'd rather see a system like this again then the current. I came back after a 5 year hiatus, found a guild to do Mythic+ and start raiding, and cleared LFR Nyalotha to see the content because I'm so many months behind on my cape. SO many trolls in LFR now, just ridiculous that this game mode is even still in development.

What are your thoughts on how raiding/gearing is laid out?

The game has split into multiple difficulties trying to cater to all levels of gameplay. I personally think LFR is a bad mode, since it's not a real raid if bosses just fall over dead to a weak disorganized group. But apparently some people actually like it.

But I don't think gear is an appropriate goal. I don't raid in order to get gear, I get gear in order to kill raid bosses. Killing the hard bosses is the goal for me. Gear just is an instrument that increases my dps. So the only question is what level of dificulty I can tackle based on my level of skill. If there was only one difficulty the game would always be too hard or too easy for a lot of people.

If gear is your goal, raiding is definitely unnecessary. But then you didn't really care about raiding to begin with, so what is the big deal?

[cuafpr]

If any raid difficulty was to get, I'd guess it would be HC. M+ isn't going anywhere as it's popular (or so it seems). LFR is here to stay, i do wish it was "fixed" to be less troll friendly but I'm not 100% sure how to fix that part.

[Zenfoldor]

How does M+ 'ruin' raiding? How is it related to raiding in any way.

I'm not the person you quoted, but I've seen this question asked a few times in this thread.

When raiding was the only viable end game path, it was the only viable end game path. Now, mythic+ is a completely efficient viable end game path as well. Raiding is no longer the only game in town, and thus, is reduced in importance in the end game. That is how mythic+ has REDUCED raiding.

However, I would expect that the term 'ruin' is the key issue here, which I don't agree with.

It is hard to argue raiding is not a lower priority now. However, I do feel that mythic+ was a valid and important addition to the game. That said, I think it is too efficient compared to raiding.

IMO, raiding and mythic+ should be balanced and equally efficient at gearing. The player should be able to choose one or the other, and each aspect, including time investment, should be balanced accordingly to ensure parity. Right now, mythic+ feels essential, however, raiding does not. Neither should feel essential.

[A Chozo]

I personally think LFR is a bad mode, since it's not a real raid if bosses just fall over dead to a weak disorganized group. But apparently some people actually like it.

LFR is the most popular form of Raiding in WoW. They won't remove it due to population issues - if any format of raiding were to be removed because of unpopularity, it would be Mythic.

[Khallid]

LFR is the most popular form of Raiding in WoW. They won't remove it due to population issues - if any format of raiding were to be removed because of unpopularity, it would be Mythic.

Yeah, I'm not arguing for it to be removed. It's just doesn't feel like a raid to me. More like a mob bullying weak bosses.

[WingsofLiberty]

Imho, just remove normal and be done with it. The difficulty difference between normal and heroic isn't that great anyway.

The thing that actually adds *difficulty* is that heroic is tuned for better gear...

[deenman]

You are remembering tbc wrong then. Like just objectively wrong.

Wrath had the defacto hardest raids to date(not including normal modes/non hardmode ultuar bosses). Ulduar hardmodes(to a certain degree), sarth 3rd before the zerg became viable, ToTC hc, icc hc and that raid who shall not be mentioned hc where objectively harder then anything that came before it.

well if we are speaking singular bosses pretty sure muru was harder,but yeah,there were more hard bosses in wrath at the top compared to tbc,but like i said tbc was more consistant with its difficulty,and how am i remembering wrong?wrath had no actual bugged or overtuned normal bosses,magtheridon was extreme before nerf mecanicaly,kael and vashj were pretty much unkilable,kael was i think the first boss ever that wasnt beat until the next tier came out,because of bugs

[Lurker1]

Million times better than 'raid or die'.

For sure! and you can even get pretty dam strong soloing soon in shadowlands as well feels good man!

[Kralljin]

Damn, playing the game because its fun is wrong? Dang, I´ve been doing it wrong the whole time. Jokes aside, sure for many People "Getting gear" is the goal. But especially with Raiding, for probably at least the same amount "Playing the game" is the goal.

You're free to take away from the game what you want, if you enjoy the game even without power rewards, that's fine, that however doesn't mean everyone else does.

And taking into account that Blizzard places power upgrades behind virtually any sort of content, shows that "for the sake of doing it" does not suffice for a large amount of players.

The fun lies within progressing your character.

Do you actually believe that Blizzard put a not so insignificant effort into Artifacts, Legendaries, Azerite, Essences & Corruption just for shits and giggles?
No, the core aspect that all these systems share is that they increase the players power.

[Ange]

Because people achieve their BiS gear within two months and are stuck with nothing to do, right?

Believe what you want on why people play this game, but gear is nothing but a vessel to progress your character, to increase the power of it.

Different people have different values for the gear you can get in the game. Nobody is forcing you to play the MMO in on of its most niche modes inside subcommunitys and with gearing requirements that are stupid in the first place.

People can limit their own choices as they wish, many burn out because of this and thats the way in this MMO from the beginning.

Not everyone fits into the MMO genre, some take it way to serious and just look for competitive areas in a basic farming game. I think its just hilarious that people still did not learn a bit from a 15 year old MMO and still start with it as naive as possible and are crying all day long in the forums when they realize how things work in this game.

[Saltysquidoon]

IMO, raiding and mythic+ should be balanced and equally efficient at gearing. The player should be able to choose one or the other, and each aspect, including time investment, should be balanced accordingly to ensure parity. Right now, mythic+ feels essential, however, raiding does not. Neither should feel essential.

That's a fair position to hold and of course, people are entitled to different perspectives and there is probably legs to the idea that the M+ box can have a deleterious impact on mythic gearing.

My retort, however, is this. Can M+ get me CE? Can it get me the Mount? Can M+ get me 12/12? If the answer is no then M+ can never ruin raiding for me. For me gear is a means to an end, prog is the reward.

[Kralljin]

Different people have different values for the gear you can get in the game. Nobody is forcing you to play the MMO in on of its most niche modes inside subcommunitys and with gearing requirements that are stupid in the first place.

If character progression is a niche, then the very core of the game has become "niche".

As said it above, gear is nothing but an alternate way to progress your character on max level, after the leveling model has reached its cap.
Leveling a character is nothing but increasing its power, you gain level, you hit harder, get more abilities, become stronger.

That is the basis of a progression based RPG such as WoW.

Not everyone fits into the MMO genre, some take it way to serious and just look for competitive areas in a basic farming game.

Seems to me, you're just projecting a "Elitist / competitive attitude" onto my posts.
Read through my posts, if you take away that gear is somehow related to competition, you didn't read them properly.

But hey, let me quote myself, because you obviously did not read it.

Some People are playing the game to improve their character first and foremost, not necessarily because they need it to tackle a greater challenge.

[Powerogue]

I will say, at least for my class, horrific visions are disproportionately great gear for being able to solo them and run them nearly endlessly.

I'm always torn with this because finding a raid group has traditionally been a big undertaking, which puts me off doing it, but you're still right about basically everything.

[Mardux]

Don't jump in on one side of an argument when both sides are completely making shit up. You only show your bias.



OT: If gear level is the only reason you play, you shouldn't be playing. Gear is not going to magically make the game fun if you don't enjoy playing it. The point of raids is to beat the boss.

Loot is basically your score.

Did I mention the other side wasnt "making shit up"? Didnt think so. But when your defense is "but they did it too", you only show your maturity.

- - - Updated - - -

That's a fair position to hold and of course, people are entitled to different perspectives and there is probably legs to the idea that the M+ box can have a deleterious impact on mythic gearing.

My retort, however, is this. Can M+ get me CE? Can it get me the Mount? Can M+ get me 12/12? If the answer is no then M+ can never ruin raiding for me. For me gear is a means to an end, prog is the reward.

This. I play for progression. But I do get that there are people who think ilvl is the only means of progress.

[Shaetha]

Did I mention the other side wasnt "making shit up"? Didnt think so. But when your defense is "but they did it too", you only show your maturity.

If both sides are bullshit, why do you reply to one calling bullshit and not the other? The fact you choose to call one out and not the other by choosing to not mention the other argument's equal flaws, you've been dishonest, and it's tainted my opinion of you.

Now, I never made an argument either way in my response to you. I simply called out your dishonesty. "But they did it too" was never my point. My point was, "You showed me your opinion is biased to the point of dishonesty." Calling bullshit on only one side when both sides were full of shit is dishonest. It is a lie of omission.

[Baine]

The very point of RPG's such as WoW is to progress your character (=Acquire more powerful gear).
That's even been repeated by the Game director himself.

Mate, this game is 15 years old and you just failed on the very basic of this damn game, Gear is nothing but an alternate way to progress your character beyond the regular leveling process.

Progressing your character does not mean only gear. It means whatever progress you want to achieve (mounts, transmog, reputations, gold, etc).

[Xalvia]

mythic raiding needs more incentives.

[razorpax]

If you play for ilvl grats you’re right

Idk many players personally that would compare 5 man to raids

[Azerate]

Having alternative progression systems / different kind of activities providing gear on a similar level is perfectly fine.

The only situation in which someone can be against this is if other people having fun in a different way impedes them having fun themselves. And that automatically means you're an asshole who shouldn't be listened to.

[dcc626]

I don't recall seeing anyone asking for less loot than what dropped prior to Titan/warforging, corruption. Am I wrong? I could be wrong, MoP was a long time ago but I feel like Blizz is doing something fucky and if so fuck them.

we asked for no rng systems, "let loot be loot". the only reason loot was thrown at us was BECAUSE of the rng. so, getting rid of one means we get rid of the other.

they arent going to throw loot at you so you can get geared quickly and complain about nothing to do for the next 6 months.

so yeah, we asked for it.

- - - Updated - - -

Raiding has never been more meaningless in retail than it is in bfa and likely shadowlands.

M+ and seasonal catch up mechanics ruin the raid aspect of the game

It’s why wow classic has more raiders than retail according to wow logs

if things turn out like they look like they will then shadowlands will end up changing it. they have stated that they want less loot to drop in raids, i have a feeling the same will happen in m+. only 1 box per week instead of 2. torghast will be for legendaries and cosmetics, so no loot like we get in visions. wq and emmisay loot has never been that useful. you can pvp for loot again and not have it rng i guess.

so yeah, less loot.