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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya View Post
    Could you clarify? What do you mean, “more or less”?
    The entire post doesn't work at all if that part isn't true, so Theo rules-lawyers in a vague statement that implies it is true without actually saying it and thus having to prove it.

    AKA bad faith posting 101, and exactly what I expect from them.

  2. #102
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The entire post doesn't work at all if that part isn't true, so Theo rules-lawyers in a vague statement that implies it is true without actually saying it and thus having to prove it.

    AKA bad faith posting 101, and exactly what I expect from them.
    If you disagree with how I word something, please just ask for clarification, assuming it's some grand strategic trick or part of a plot is not accurate or fair.

    The essence of Bad Faith is the assumption that it is some trick, I am not aiming to trick you. I even spell out that it is the Elizabeth Warren position. Bad Faith is actually the belief that everything you see is a deception or a trick. I.E. that someone is lying to you.
    Last edited by Theodarzna; 2020-07-01 at 02:21 AM. Reason: Being more kind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  3. #103
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    That is a weirdly essentialist view like those certain demographics are innately fascist is; I don't know that seems to be very essentialist. What about the Republican Parties voting Demographic is essentially destined for Fascism versus say the Democratic party?
    There's nothing "essential" about it. Republican voters actively choose to support fascist policies and rhetoric. Nobody's making them do that and it isn't inherent to anything but their own personal choices.

    It's really fuckin' weird that people think fascism should be somehow inherently repellent as an idea. It's enticing. That's why it's a threat. If it was inherently repellent, it would never have garnered any support anywhere. It garnered that support historically for the exact same reasons it's garnering support today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Gosh do I regret introducing the term to this forum, it's notw wildly overused.
    I welcome anyone to take the time to run a search of General Off-Topic, for the term "bad faith". Sort results by last posting date, in ascending order; you'll get the oldest uses first. I'd drop a direct link but the system here doesn't let you link search results directly.

    First use of that term is years before Theo here ever even made an account; it shows a post by Felya back in 2011 as the earliest example, in the proper context.

    You didn't come up with the term and you had nothing to do with people here learning about it. Stop puffing yourself up.


  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Actually the essence of Bad Faith is the assumption that it is some trick, I am not aiming to trick you. I even spell out that it is the Elizabeth Warren position. Bad Faith is actually the belief that everything you see is a deception or a trick. I.E. that someone is lying to you.

    Gosh do I regret introducing the term to this forum, it's not wildly overused.
    Literally one google search proves that "open borders" is not Warren's position in any way, straight from the horse's mouth. Less regulated immigration is not the same thing unless one is being intentionally disingenuous, which is highly likely given your posting history. And without that argument, your entire post falls completely apart as it relies on us assuming we agree that there's a serious outcry for "open borders" in America. Hence you using "more or less" to dodge your way out of having to actually prove your assumption.

    The number of times you've played this game, one would think you'd get better at it. Your bullshit is transparent and I'm not even trying to fall for your lame deflection up above.

  5. #105
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Literally one google search proves that "open borders" is not Warren's position in any way, straight from the horse's mouth. Less regulated immigration is not the same thing unless one is being intentionally disingenuous, which is highly likely given your posting history. And without that argument, your entire post falls completely apart as it relies on us assuming we agree that there's a serious outcry for "open borders" in America. Hence you using "more or less" to dodge your way out of having to actually prove your assumption.

    The number of times you've played this game, one would think you'd get better at it. Your bullshit is transparent and I'm not even trying to fall for your lame deflection up above.
    It's the Jordan Peterson brand of "I'm a bullshitting con artist" demagoguery.

    Say something with either alarming and dangerous implications, or which claims some extremism of your opponents but with an equivocation like "more or less" or "in some interpretations" or something.

    When called out on your dishonest horseshit, feign surprise and horror at the suggestion, and demand that they demonstrate where you explicitly (rather than implicitly) stated a thing, or stated that thing without equivocation.

    Act smug like you've "won", because you see rhetoric as some kind of game-point system rather than discourse meant to communicate ideas and meaning. And imply that your detractors are the "real villains", because they understand that induction and abduction are as much a part of inferential logic as deduction.


  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    It's the Jordan Peterson brand of "I'm a bullshitting con artist" demagoguery.

    Say something with either alarming and dangerous implications, or which claims some extremism of your opponents but with an equivocation like "more or less" or "in some interpretations" or something.

    When called out on your dishonest horseshit, feign surprise and horror at the suggestion, and demand that they demonstrate where you explicitly (rather than implicitly) stated a thing, or stated that thing without equivocation.

    Act smug like you've "won", because you see rhetoric as some kind of game-point system rather than discourse meant to communicate ideas and meaning. And imply that your detractors are the "real villains", because they understand that induction and abduction are as much a part of inferential logic as deduction.
    Indeed. As I said, it's pretty blatant at this point and I wouldn't be surprised if the entire point of the thread is to stir that kind of shit until the OP is fed up and leaves/gets banned once again, so I'll endeavor to bow out right now before losing more braincells to this brand of nonsense.

  7. #107
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Literally one google search proves that "open borders" is not Warren's position in any way, straight from the horse's mouth. Less regulated immigration is not the same thing unless one is being intentionally disingenuous, which is highly likely given your posting history. And without that argument, your entire post falls completely apart as it relies on us assuming we agree that there's a serious outcry for "open borders" in America. Hence you using "more or less" to dodge your way out of having to actually prove your assumption.

    The number of times you've played this game, one would think you'd get better at it. Your bullshit is transparent and I'm not even trying to fall for your lame deflection up above.
    I'll let Mother Jones answer the point about Elizabeth Warren:

    Elizabeth Warren has an immigration plan. Here are the highlights:

    - Decriminalizes unauthorized immigration and returns to the civil enforcement we had before George Bush began Operation Streamline.
    - Eliminates abusive immigration enforcement and keeps law enforcement at arms length from CBP and ICE.
    - Reduces and reforms immigrant detention.
    - Reforms immigration courts.
    - Raises the refugee cap to 125,000 and affirms refugee protections.
    - Reforms legal immigration and creates a path to citizenship.

    This is a curious plan. As near as I can tell, it recommends no actions to improve border law enforcement in any way. There’s nothing about either a wall or a “virtual wall.” There’s nothing about E-Verify. There’s nothing about “smarter” or “more efficient” enforcement. No one will ever be deported—except, presumably, for serious felons, though Warren doesn’t even say that explicitly. Expedited removal will be ended. The Border Patrol will be reshaped from “top to bottom,” and will focus their efforts on “homeland security efforts like screening cargo, identifying counterfeit goods, and preventing smuggling and trafficking.” The whole thing is very similar to Julian Castro’s plan.

    I have previously criticized Republicans who accused liberals of wanting “open borders.” President Trump tweets about this endlessly. But I have to admit that it’s hard to see much daylight between Warren’s plan and de facto open borders. As near as I can tell, CBP will be retasked away from patrolling the border looking for illegal crossings; if border officers happen to apprehend someone, they’ll be released almost immediately; if they bother to show up for their court date, they’ll have a lawyer appointed for them; and employers will have no particular reason to fear giving them a job.
    I don't see Mother Jones as being a "Right-Wing Source" or anything. But basically the Warren plan is essentially de facto Open Borders. But let's say it only counts as Open Borders if she explicitly says Open Borders, well, if we chart a spectrum between Open Borders and Closed Borders, Warren and nearly every Democratic contenders plan other than say Tulsi's was closer to Open Borders and the point is, the more liberal (lower case L) one is with immigration the more people can come and thus the bigger the labor pool is. Bigger labor pool by default means lower wages and higher rent rates.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  8. #108
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I'll let Mother Jones answer the point about Elizabeth Warren:

    I don't see Mother Jones as being a "Right-Wing Source" or anything. But basically the Warren plan is essentially de facto Open Borders. But let's say it only counts as Open Borders if she explicitly says Open Borders, well, if we chart a spectrum between Open Borders and Closed Borders, Warren and nearly every Democratic contenders plan other than say Tulsi's was closer to Open Borders and the point is, the more liberal (lower case L) one is with immigration the more people can come and thus the bigger the labor pool is. Bigger labor pool by default means lower wages and higher rent rates.
    Oh wow not even two posts and Endus called it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Say something with either alarming and dangerous implications, or which claims some extremism of your opponents but with an equivocation like "more or less" or "in some interpretations" or something.

    When called out on your dishonest horseshit, feign surprise and horror at the suggestion, and demand that they demonstrate where you explicitly (rather than implicitly) stated a thing, or stated that thing without equivocation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I don't see Mother Jones as being a "Right-Wing Source" or anything. But basically the Warren plan is essentially de facto Open Borders. But let's say it only counts as Open Borders if she explicitly says Open Borders, well, if we chart a spectrum between Open Borders and Closed Borders, Warren and nearly every Democratic contenders plan other than say Tulsi's was closer to Open Borders and the point is, the more liberal (lower case L) one is with immigration the more people can come and thus the bigger the labor pool is. Bigger labor pool by default means lower wages and higher rent rates.
    You're alledgedly a Bernie supporter. What does the Bern have to say?
    https://berniesanders.com/issues/wel...e-america-all/
    Key Points

    Institute a moratorium on deportations until a thorough audit of past practices and policies is complete.
    Reinstate and expand DACA and develop a humane policy for those seeking asylum.
    Completely reshape and reform our immigration enforcement system, including breaking up ICE and CBP and redistributing their functions to their proper authorities.
    Dismantle cruel and inhumane deportation programs and detention centers and reunite families who have been separated.
    Live up to our ideals as a nation and welcome refugees and those seeking asylum, including those displaced by climate change.

    Looks pretty fucking open to me!

    Shall we discuss how immigration is a net positive to the economy? Lower wages and higher rents can arise from increased competition but they can also arise from shitty regulations regarding labour and housing practices.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Elegiac View Post
    Oh wow not even two posts and Endus called it.
    What do you expect when you have alt-right Trumpsters Godwinning themselves...

    I will direct you to this:

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Faith-Argument

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I'll let Mother Jones answer the point about Elizabeth Warren:



    I don't see Mother Jones as being a "Right-Wing Source" or anything. But basically the Warren plan is essentially de facto Open Borders. But let's say it only counts as Open Borders if she explicitly says Open Borders, well, if we chart a spectrum between Open Borders and Closed Borders, Warren and nearly every Democratic contenders plan other than say Tulsi's was closer to Open Borders and the point is, the more liberal (lower case L) one is with immigration the more people can come and thus the bigger the labor pool is. Bigger labor pool by default means lower wages and higher rent rates.
    But the thing is, a lot of that is frankly just a return to what was prior to Bush's Operation Streamline. Which still halted and deported its fair share of illegal bordercrossers. So it is not open borders, by any measure.
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  12. #112
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivanstone View Post
    You're alledgedly a Bernie supporter. What does the Bern have to say?
    https://berniesanders.com/issues/wel...e-america-all/
    Key Points

    Institute a moratorium on deportations until a thorough audit of past practices and policies is complete.
    Reinstate and expand DACA and develop a humane policy for those seeking asylum.
    Completely reshape and reform our immigration enforcement system, including breaking up ICE and CBP and redistributing their functions to their proper authorities.
    Dismantle cruel and inhumane deportation programs and detention centers and reunite families who have been separated.
    Live up to our ideals as a nation and welcome refugees and those seeking asylum, including those displaced by climate change.

    Looks pretty fucking open to me!

    Shall we discuss how immigration is a net positive to the economy? Lower wages and higher rents can arise from increased competition but they can also arise from shitty regulations regarding labour and housing practices.
    I disagree with Sanders, despite voting for him, on this issue, and preferred his 2016 stance of "Open Borders is a Koch Brothers idea". But hey, sometimes you gotta vote for people who aren't entirely 100% but just "close enough".

    Also, What happened to Bernard Sanders? Is he running or have any chance of ever being in office?

    I think where I agree with Sanders in this is mainly that ICE isn't necessary, only serious punishment for hiring illegal labor, brutal punitive measures especially. As well as , way more human detention centers unless these people straight up are felons.

    EDIT: Sorry, also, sure it's good for the GDP, but its not good for the class of people I am talking about. Being good for people who hire maids is fine, and I acknowledge that. Its just bad for people who are maids, and that is why I care.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Howel View Post
    But the thing is, a lot of that is frankly just a return to what was prior to Bush's Operation Streamline. Which still halted and deported its fair share of illegal bordercrossers. So it is not open borders, by any measure.
    Yeah, I personally don't agree with that policy. Nagle's point is it's bad for labour in the United States, or really any country to have a pretty liberal immigration policy.

    You could argue "Oh well we will create stringent labour regulations!" but that is not borne out by history, neither party has done so and one party earnestly opposes it, and the other has been faithful handmaidens in stripping such things away.

    Finally, getting back to the OP, there is a distinct class contradiction here that the "P.M.C" class formation that has been developed has a material interest in liberal immigration policy because cheaper labor is good for them. Liberal immigration policies, I.E. the closer you are to just completely dissolving the border one gets, the better it is for people who hire maids, the worse it is for people who are maids.
    Last edited by Theodarzna; 2020-07-01 at 03:41 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Yeah, I personally don't agree with that policy. Nagle's point is it's bad for labour in the United States, or really any country to have a pretty liberal immigration policy.

    You could argue "Oh well we will create stringent labour regulations!" but that is not borne out by history, neither party has done so and one party earnestly opposes it, and the other has been faithful handmaidens in stripping such things away.

    Finally, getting back to the OP, there is a distinct class contradiction here that the "P.M.C" class formation that has been developed has a material interest in liberal immigration policy because cheaper labor is good for them. Liberal immigration policies, I.E. the closer you are to just completely dissolving the border one gets, the better it is for people who hire maids, the worse it is for people who are maids.
    That's a more interesting topic certainly.
    To which my answer will always be, nice of you to think of the poor low skilled labourers, but no amount of thinking or restrictions on possible effects, are going to enrich them, or make it a worthwhile employment to seek.

    Japan is an excellent example of this. They have far higher restrictions on immigration, so they of course should not problems with jobs being filled up or lose value, because there is no foreigners to take it from them? Except, after running on that idea for a good decade, the government finally had to cave in to a problem that never got a solution, and made the Educational Visa for aspiring people from poorer Asian countries, to come to Japan and learn a craftsman trade. Except they don't learn anything. They are doing the manual labour, that no Japanese person could be asked to do, without literally giving them a craftsman salary to lure them in.
    That programs numbers is to my last knowledge, around 600,000.
    Last edited by Howel; 2020-07-01 at 03:54 AM.
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  14. #114
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howel View Post
    That's a more interesting topic certainly.
    To which my answer will always be, nice of you to think of the poor low skilled labourers, but no amount of thinking or restrictions on possible effects, are going to enrich them, or make it a worthwhile employment to seek.
    Why shouldn't it be worthwhile employment to seek? Like what intrinsically about a maid's job makes it unworthy?

    Second, of course, it will enrich them, that is how labour markets work. When labour is able to create a cartel on labour the price goes up that they can command for their work and thus have more power. So this is both incorrect, or you will need to clarify why it would not make their lives materially better and also why that job isn't worthwhile in your view and why being not worthwhile means the pay should be terrible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Why shouldn't it be worthwhile employment to seek? Like what intrinsically about a maid's job makes it unworthy?

    Second, of course, it will enrich them, that is how labour markets work. When labour is able to create a cartel on labour the price goes up that they can command for their work and thus have more power. So this is both incorrect, or you will need to clarify why it would not make their lives materially better and also why that job isn't worthwhile in your view and why being not worthwhile means the pay should be terrible.
    I made an addition to my original response. Basically, Japan is an example, of that just not working.

    Sorry to say, but no matter of market labour idealistic thinking, a farm hand is not gonna ever going to be a glorious or enriching job, no matter how much demand there is for it. Really agriculture in general is such an absolute slap in the face to any and all labour market idealist, that it is humorous.
    Formerly Howeller, lost my account.

  16. #116
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howel View Post
    I made an addition to my original response. Basically, Japan is an example, of that just not working.

    Sorry to say, but no matter of market labour idealistic thinking, a farm hand is not gonna ever going to be a glorious or enriching job, no matter how much demand there is for it. Really agriculture in general is such an absolute slap in the face to any and all labour market idealist, that it is humorous.
    Your point betrays' what you are saying, it's that nobody will do the task, it's that nobody will do it for a pittence. And why shouldn't a farmhand have a decent pay and lead a content fulfilling life? Why is that farmhand, that maid, that house cleaner unworthy in your eyes? Does their life not matter?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Your point betrays' what you are saying, it's that nobody will do the task, it's that nobody will do it for a pittence. And why shouldn't a farmhand have a decent pay and lead a content fulfilling life? Why is that farmhand, that maid, that house cleaner unworthy in your eyes? Does their life not matter?
    In a lot of countries, farm hands, are often times paid as much as a factory worker, and sometimes even more; but natives still do not want it. And that has mostly to do with the very perception of farm work. The soviet union spent 40 years glorifying it as a pillar of society, and still it was considered the lowliest rank of people and a job that you should try and escape at any and all chances.

    It is simply not a job anyone want. Which is why immigrants tend to end up doing it, because for them it is an opportunity beyond what they could get at home.

    As for maids and house cleaners, I can tell you I live in the country with one of the lowest income inequalities. Both of those things are basically a total labour number you can count on your hand. So that dream that it is gonna become a viable job, once you get rid of immigration, I fear to inform you, is a pipe dream. It gets eliminated, because it is too expensive.
    Last edited by Howel; 2020-07-01 at 04:16 AM.
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  18. #118
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howel View Post
    In a lot of countries, farm hands, are often times paid as much as a factory worker, and sometimes even more; but natives still do not want it. And that has mostly to do with the very perception of farm work. The soviet union spent 40 years glorifying it as a pillar of society, and still it was considered the lowliest rank of people and a job that you should try and escape at any and all chances.

    It is simply not a job anyone want. Which is why immigrants tend to end up doing it, because for them it is an opportunity beyond what they could get at home.

    Feel free to sight the source, furthermore, the point is that they should be paid to live a good life. Further, the idea that foreign people of a different ethnicity or something are fit to serve in this quasi-underclass as you characterize it, is kind of sickening. Also, farm work exists in all countries. It isn't as if Mexico is a land of wild nomads.

    Second, we should address earlier why you don't feel a farmhand deserves to be enriched? This kinda reminds me of the wild-eyed rant by the "Palmer Report" guy:


    You'll note that in his rant this verified individual, Bill Palmer, illustrates this curious attitude, note that he considers menial labour the domain of people NOT in the "Human Race". To be consigned to manual menial labour as he characterizes it is to be unworthy of being human as his own words reveal.

    But why should that be the way things work. I want to get back to this point of yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Howel View Post
    a farm hand is not gonna ever going to be a glorious or enriching job
    Why is a farmhand unworthy of glory and enrichment?
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  19. #119
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    You'll note that in his rant this verified individual, Bill Palmer, illustrates this curious attitude, note that he considers menial labour the domain of people NOT in the "Human Race". To be consigned to manual menial labour as he characterizes it is to be unworthy of being human as his own words reveal.
    He didn't say any of those things.

    That this is what you got from it, however, demonstrates the bias you brought to the table in reading it.


  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Acidbaron View Post
    @Endus thanks for the summary. Saved me a lot of time even attempting to read that nonsense.

    As i have always said, the alt-right group really is the bastion of anti-intellectualism in the conservative movements. But it really takes a special kind of stupid to believe there's a single minded "group" in the left. They are split everywhere, i mean politically you have got to be living under a rock to not be aware of Greens and Reds.
    @Themius thanks for the author personality description would have figured it was yet another person who had all the benefits of being in a wealthy nation and yet still being angry on everyone else for being an failure.
    No, Endus got it completely wrong. I didn't want to post here until I saw your post praising his blatant misrepresentation. OP's quote focuses on class split in the left, not other kinds.

    OP megaquote summary as I see it: (yes I've read the whole thing)
    --- 8< ---
    "I'm a pro-worker leftist from Sweden. After I used Marxist analysis on The Left itself (more on that in next paragraph), which is a blasphemy and sin in The Left's eyes, I've been targeted by "cancel culture", called a racist despite my father being an immigrant from Central Africa, and a Strasserite, which is ironic in itself, but also a smear used originally by Nazis.

    My main point is, the left has two halves with incompatible goals, and the rift has grown so big that leftists have to choose which half's goals they want to accomplish, it's impossible to do both anymore. One half is the working class, the original left's beneficiaries. The other half is "Professional Managerial Class" or PMC, middle-class children who "finished college with good marks" but now are facing downward mobility, forced to work at Starbucks and such, becoming a part of the working class, a future they despise.

    The PMC-led Left's goal is not to better living conditions of the working class, but to ensure the PMC themselves don't sink into it; hence creation of endless useless managerial positions whose only true goal is proliferation of the PMC and certainly not help to the working class.

    But don't worry, the new pro-worker Left is coming and I'm a part of it, and if the PMC is our enemy, so be it."
    --- 8< ---

    My own take on why Strasserite smear is ironic: Strasser brothers were the Socialists of the original National Social party. Gregor was killed by the Hitlerite faction in their 1934 purge of the party, Otto fled Germany in 1933 and lived in emigration. Arguably, Nazi party stopped being Socialist when Strasserites were removed. So, Strasserite smear means "the original Socialist". The half-African Swede is indeed the original, pro-worker, leftist being denounced by his middle-class, champagne socialist, comrades.

    Endus's summary for comparison:
    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    Since it's basically a waste of everyone's time, I wanted to pull out some particular nuggets of undigested corn to demonstrate exactly how dishonest this guy is being.

    The left are a cult, but it's their lack of cultishness that's the problem.
    Classes can only serve their own interests, but many on the left keep serving multiple class interests, and that's "wrong" because fuck you.
    I self-identify as a Nazi sympathizer, but it's totally unfair when people call me a Nazi.

    That's the article in a nutshell, if you didn't want to read the rest.
    No Endus, he does not self-identify as a Nazi sympathizer. Usually you make intelligent posts despite your biases, but this time you were clearly emotional and hurt by the truth. If the choice becomes inevitable, will you choose to maintain your position in the bourgeoisie, or to somewhat improve lives of the proletariat at the price of you personally and your children becoming them, forever losing the middle-class status?


    P.S. Theodarzna is probably LOL'ing at most of replies to the half-African Swedish pro-worker leftist's article: nazi sympathizer! alt-right! neo-nazi! trump! white supremacy! trumpist! trumpster! trumpsters!
    ... is it really true? Is being pro-worker a right-wing trumpster position now?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yuujin View Post
    Liberty and equality are the same thing, no?
    Absolutely not. Inmates in solitary jail have equality but not liberty. People in CHAZ have liberty but not equality.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    It's not 2004. People have lives, jobs, families etc

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