Tearing down historical statues the European edition

[Stelio Kontos]

No shit he supported slavery, he was a fucking Roman emperor. Who is hurt by having a statue of him be up? Where are the people currently affected by his stance on slavery?

And it wasn't even racial, EVERYONE could be enslaved in those societies. A few Greek philosophers were slaves in their youths after having been in the losing side of wars and battles.

Should we tear down the statue of any and all Arab and Ottoman sultans and caliphs, since they had slaves?

How about African kings?

[Yadryonych]

What's next? Do we need to change any book with names that are "problematic", like Constantinople, Adrianople, Caesarea, Alexandria, etc?

I hope this bullshit stays out of Greece....there's too much history there to destroy in the name of wokeness.

Oh no, that's a triggering word for them, you are young to face 2 more pages of "statues are not history, it's all books"

[Felya]

Oh no, that's a triggering word for them, you are young to face 2 more pages of "statues are not history, it's all books"

Statues are to history, are what picture books are to learning.

[Theodarzna]

What's next? Do we need to change any book with names that are "problematic", like Constantinople, Adrianople, Caesarea, Alexandria, etc?

I hope this bullshit stays out of Greece....there's too much history there to destroy in the name of wokeness.

Plus, are we really going to destroy every beautiful or ancient work of art? What will replace these things? Or will we just cast off these ornaments in favor of sterile modernity and some "Humans of Flat" murals?

[Soliloque]

Statues are to history, are what picture books are to learning.

So plenty useful.

[Xarkan]

Plus, are we really going to destroy every beautiful or ancient work of art? What will replace these things? Or will we just cast off these ornaments in favor of sterile modernity and some "Humans of Flat" murals?

Ancient?

Let us take that roman emperor example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue...he_Great,_York

Seems to be from 1998

However in 1998 and now anyone who did not realize that the romans had slaves have simply not been paying attention (if they are old enough to have had any roman history obviously)

[Theodarzna]

Ancient?

Let us take that roman emperor example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue...he_Great,_York

Seems to be from 1998

However in 1998 and now anyone who did not realize that the romans had slaves have simply not been paying attention (if they are old enough to have had any roman history obviously)

I said Beautiful or Ancient, as one or the other or both.

Plus, that is kind of ludicrous, and a sign that people cannot handle moral ambiguity anymore.

[Xarkan]

I said Beautiful or Ancient, as one or the other or both.

Plus, that is kind of ludicrous, and a sign that people cannot handle moral ambiguity anymore.

Misread as beautiful and ancient.. sorry

[Theodarzna]

Misread as beautiful and ancient.. sorry

My concern is mainly aesthetic, I don't like what I consider to be tacky modern art installations that are ever-present in America and are just generally ugly eyesores.

[Mayhem]

My concern is mainly aesthetic, I don't like what I consider to be tacky modern art installations that are ever-present in America and are just generally ugly eyesores.

How often have you been to Europe?

[Theodarzna]

How often have you been to Europe?

Continental Europe, not much beyond Spain. The Brexited bits? A lot, I was born there.

[Grimbold21]

What's next? Do we need to change any book with names that are "problematic", like Constantinople, Adrianople, Caesarea, Alexandria, etc?

I hope this bullshit stays out of Greece....there's too much history there to destroy in the name of wokeness.

Well, while not technically part of the culture/art context, name changing has been a thing for ages.

What you have recently is the "Whitelist/Blacklist" example in tech https://uk.pcmag.com/encryption/1268...l-stereotyping

I think the "Slave/Master" will likely be next

[josykay]

I would assume though that in the same way a Confederate statue is meant to reinforce the oppresion of African Americans in the US, statues of kings and generals responsible for colonialism oppress transplanted slaves/refugees/immigrants from former colonies. So that analogy can be made.

I think, the only case in Germany that is similiar is the Lothar von Trotha street in Munich, named after the german commander signing the annihilation order during the Herero rebelion. Which was renamed. Wissman's statues are no longer on public ground as well, even though they were built with a different mindset, his role in cutting down another revolt in 1895 is more than enough. The statue was first torn down in 1961 btw. And to be fair...
The statue radiated arrogance, with him on a socket, and an Askari beneath him.

[Coolthulhu]

We're seeing a lot of leftist talebanism in Europe as a whole, it's not confined to France. Statues aren't the only targets either, other kind of memorials such as street names are, too.

The funny thing is that whilst many call for the damnatio memoriae of colonial figures (just because they were colonial figures and ignoring their merits), nobody is calling for the memory of Tito or Stalin to be erased. Another funny thing is that prior to this, the most recent large-scale destruction of cultural heritage was perpetrated by ISIS. Food for thought for the far-left, which is... well, far from aniconistic in nature.

[Ghostpanther]

Very stupid trend. I understand the removal of some and have them placed in museums. But the destruction of them I am adamantly opposed to.

"Those who forget the lessons from the past, are doomed to repeat them."

[Felya]

Very stupid trend. I understand the removal of some and have them placed in museums. But the destruction of them I am adamantly opposed to.

"Those who forget the lessons from the past, are doomed to repeat them."

Statues are not lessons... it’s idol worship...

[josykay]

We're seeing a lot of leftist talebanism in Europe as a whole, it's not confined to France. Statues aren't the only targets either, other kind of memorials such as street names are, too.

The funny thing is that whilst many call for the damnatio memoriae of colonial figures (just because they were colonial figures and ignoring their merits), nobody is calling for the memory of Tito or Stalin to be erased. Another funny thing is that prior to this, the most recent large-scale destruction of cultural heritage was perpetrated by ISIS. Food for thought for the far-left, which is... well, far from aniconistic in nature.

Are they just colonial figures... or what exactly did they do? Lothar von Trotha as mentioned, signed the so called "Annihilation Order" during the Herero rebellion, proclaiming, that the Herero will no longer be german subjects, and will be either expelled into the desert or shot on sight. Including women and children.:

I, the great General of the German troops, send this letter to the Herero people. The Herero people are no longer German subjects . . . The Herero people must leave the country. If the nation doesn’t do this I will force them with the Groot Rohr [cannon]. Within the German borders, every Herero, with or without gun, with or without cattle, will be shot. I will no longer accept women or children, I will drive them back to their people or I will let them be shot at.

Such a figure is simply unworthy of being remembered in positive light. The order is exceedingly brutal even by the standards of the 1900s.

[Themius]

Are they just colonial figures... or what exactly did they do? Lothar von Trotha as mentioned, signed the so called "Annihilation Order" during the Herero rebellion, proclaiming, that the Herero will no longer be german subjects, and will be either expelled into the desert or shot on sight. Including women and children.:



Such a figure is simply unworthy of being remembered in positive light. The order is exceedingly brutal even by the standards of the 1900s.

If anything a statue showing him shooting fleeing women and children would teach something.

Like if we are going to have statues of shitty people, let them be real.

[Shadowferal]

I didn't know there were statues of Lothar. And the only thing I knew of him was his attempt at genocide of the Herrero.

[josykay]

I didn't know there were statues of Lothar. And the only thing I knew of him was his attempt at genocide of the Herrero.

Not statues, but streets. Incidently, the streets were not named after him in prior to WW1. but in the Nazi era. Also, there is the "Reiterdenkmal" in Namibia, not Throtha himself, but linked to his actions which, not only is a memorial for the germans, that died, but also, to show the Herero and "Hottentotten" their place, opened in 1912, and becoming well, the symbol for germany's colonial glorification. (And causally included a racial slur on the statue's inscription... how nice)