Faction Identity

[username993720]

I think the races that compose each of the playable factions are an integral part of their identity. The Horde has mostly been considered as the savage, evil, tribal and monstrous faction while the Alliance has mostly been considered as the civilized, good, advanced and patronizing faction. This, of course, has changed in recent times with the addition of hope-preaching orcs (saurfang) and insecure trolls (Zekhan). This may be seen as an attempt to display diversity among the two factions but i, personally, see that as an attempt to whitewash the races' defining characteristics (Warmongering orcs, malicious undead, greedy goblins and so on...). For this reason, i believe the Ogres and the Forest Trolls are a crucial part of the Horde's identity while the Wildhammer dwarves and High elves are a crucial part of the Alliance's identity. The Ogres have been a part of the Old Horde, Horde of Draenor, Dark Horde, New Horde, Fel Horde and Iron Horde, while the Forest Trolls have been a part of the Old Horde, Horde of Draenor, Dark Horde and New Horde. Meanwhile, the Wildhammer Dwarves have been a part of the Alliance of Lordaeron, the Alliance Resistance and the Grand Alliance while the High elves have been a part of the Alliance of Lordaeron and the Grand Alliance. Thankfully, in the Shadowlands expansion we are getting to play as High elves and Wildhammer Dwarves as customization options. But, alas, we will still be unable to play as Ogres or Forest Trolls on the Horde side.

This leads me to my next point, the exchange of some of the races between the two factions. As i said, the Horde has mostly been an evil and savage faction while the Alliance has mostly been a civilized and good faction. Even though lore doesn't support it, i feel like the Dark Iron Dwarves, the Worgen and the Void elves aesthetically fit the Horde more while the Blood elves, Nightborne and Vulpera fit the Alliance more. The Dark Iron dwarves have always been an evil race, a dark counterpart of the bronzebeard dwarves. The worgen have always been a savage and brutal race. and the Void elves (basically the Warhammer Dark elves) are like the dark counterpart of the Blood elves (Although they don't seem to be evil, they should definitely be, as they deal with the forces of the void. Plus, them being banished from the alliance for delving in the void and being embraced by the horde makes much more sense than the other way around). Meanwhile, i feel like the Blood elves and Nightborne are way too civilized to be associating themselves with the barbaric Horde (plus, there are already High elves and Highborne on the Alliance, so it makes sense for them to be a part of it). This will also solve the whole issue with High elves being on both the Horde and the Alliance (by just giving them to Blood elves) and the problem of their racials (as the blood elves' arcane racials fit them more than void racials). And as for the Vulpera, i feel like they are way too sweet-talkers to be part of the Barbaric Horde.

What do you guys think?
Do you agree of disagree? share your thoughts.

[Skytotem]

Eh, the Horde wasn't 'evil' in much of Vanilla-Tbc-Wotlk, I do agree they've muddled the faction themes a bit too much though.

[Saltysquidoon]

The Horde is about compromised outcasts overcoming their past and being better. This is the reason most of their races (until BFA) had some sort of fundamental historical moral flaw that is meant to be juxtaposed with helping Azeroth.

The Alliance were meant to be the lawful boring everybody else. Which is mostly just a leftover from the baggage of the first two games. Metzan clearly didn't care a wit for the faction because they're essentially unchanged (aside from its constituents) from WCII.

[Super Dickmann]

Eh, the Horde wasn't 'evil' in much of Vanilla-Tbc-Wotlk, I do agree they've muddled the faction themes a bit too much though.

The Alliance used to be a lot less boring in that time period too. Especially humans pre-Varian, though there was some of that in Cataclysm as well, re: the Defias, the original House of Nobles, Prestor business was interesting. Ditto the dwarves used to actually be actively imperialistic instead of simply not showing up, with Ironforge arguably being more of a power center than Stormwind.

Alas.

[Dancaris]

"so boyz, i want beautiful elfs and furries in my alliance. Take that ugliest furry, nocanon elves and black dwarfs for yourself. I want to play my LOTR in my WoW"

[Toxuvox]

I think you're confusing faction identity with racial aesthetic dude. The faction identity of the horde in World of Warcraft has been that of the marginalised, the outcast, and the disenfranchised banding together for mutual support and strength in a world that does not trust them despite their efforts to find their way in the world. The alliance faction identity has been that of nobility and justice being brought against those who would subjugate and destroy their way of life.

Both of those identities have become muddied along the way with each successive expansion story arc, to the point that the original faction identities are muted and almost lost, but the simple fact is that those identities have absolutely nothing to do with how the component races appear.

[Razion]

If the Horde was all strictly one-note I think that would make things too predictable and makes it less nuanced and subtle - less interesting, less engaging, less cerebral, with less to consider and theorize about. There needs to be some depth.

When there needs to be villains who are over the top and obvious, it can be done outside the persistent factions as temporary threats. When individual faction members go rawr angry and start wars it can be seen as obvious and these characters often get backlash and are often shot down if not killed outright.

[Phaelia]

Wrong. /10char

[TickTickTick]

The Horde has always been a savage, evil, tribal and monstrous faction while the Alliance has always been a civilized, good, advanced and humane faction.

Wrong.

I don't know if you're talking about WoW or pre-WoW factions, but in both cases that statement is wrong.

If you're thinking about pre-WoW, then the Alliance wasn't civilized or good. Human kingdoms fought each other, with Gilneas showing a middle finger to dying Lordaeronians, and keeping the orcs in cages was anything but civilized.
If you're thinking about WoW factions, then the Horde has not been "evil" or "monstrous". The whole idea behind establishing the Horde by Thrall was for outcasts to live together, in peace. To find their place in the world and to sustain it, because they'd perish if stuck alone. I also don't know what's the monstrous supposed to mean, especially in fantasy setting. Why are trolls deemed monstrous, but night elves aren't? Gnomes also aren't your usual humanoid race.

This thread is flawed from the very begining, because the identities that you assumed are wrong.
Even barring that, there's no such thing as identity in this universe. Races or characters will do a 180, going entirely against their character, if Blizz wants it so. Usually they do this becase a certain character or race have been relegated to a plot machine that's only purpose is to move the plot forward into the direction Blizzard wants it.

War of Thorns in particular proves that Blizzard has no regard to any identity. They will make a whole faction do a sudden 180 or suffer amnesia, because they had this cool idea for an event or an expension and nowadays they aren't creative enough to develop a cool, convincing story that would actually make sense. So instead they will keep abusing the easy ways, making the story inconsistent, but hey - at least they were able to push through their new vision of Azeroth or the universe - probably a 100th one during the games' development.

[Skytotem]

Going forward, it'd be nice if they tidied up the themes a bit between the Horde / Alliance political blocks.



Surreal that Mulgore/Highmountain and Silvermoon/Suramar are probably 'closer' to each other politically than they are with Durotar/Bilgewater.

Forsaken are all on their own, they need a buddy since they're probably not as close to belfs now that Sylv is gone.

Who would the Zandalari/Darkspears closest buds be? Orcs? Tauren? Goblins?

Where would folks like the Unshackled fall?

[Hellspawn]

Going forward, it'd be nice if they tidied up the themes a bit between the Horde / Alliance political blocks.



Surreal that Mulgore/Highmountain and Silvermoon/Suramar are probably 'closer' to each other politically than they are with Durotar/Bilgewater.

Forsaken are all on their own, they need a buddy since they're probably not as close to belfs now that Sylv is gone.

Who would the Zandalari/Darkspears closest buds be? Orcs? Tauren? Goblins?

Where would folks like the Unshackled fall?

Are we talking themes or political goals?
I think each faction has roughly three different groups.

War hawks, Peace advocates, Neutral

War hawks
Zandalari are a proud bunch and sacking of their city made them want restore pride.
Darkspears extend their pride to the Zandalari and support their claims.
Mag'har for some reason are seeking actively war they just want to find glory in a war.

Neutral
Goblin were opportunist before but with the new lead set in place by Thrall they seem to be more focused higher goals then just make short term profit for themselves
Vulpera seem to be mainly support whatever others decide.

Peace advocates
Blood Elfs do not really have a big reason to hate the Alliance and never seeked active war themselves
Nightborn are not interested in war either, they want to protect and not destroy... despite joining the Horde in the first place.
Tauren are the most traditional peace keepers of the Horde
Highmountain Tauren stay with regular Tauren
Orcs don't seek war but mostly due to Thrall
Forsaken don't seem to seek war or fighthing the living either anymore, neither Calia nor Voss.

I think changing both factions themes is a deliberate choice something we currently just have the first glimpse on Alliance. I think Horde and Alliance were pretty stale since each faction conflict would start in a similar way and end in a similar way. With BFA they started now to go in a different direction after the war was over, something that should have happened after MoP.
All these groups can change around and now instead of having one voice in each faction there are multiple ones with very different goals.

[Thage]

The Alliance used to be a lot less boring in that time period too. Especially humans pre-Varian, though there was some of that in Cataclysm as well, re: the Defias, the original House of Nobles, Prestor business was interesting. Ditto the dwarves used to actually be actively imperialistic instead of simply not showing up, with Ironforge arguably being more of a power center than Stormwind.

Alas.

We both know that if the dwarves ran the show again, these cosmic threats would be over in time for last call at the pub.

edit: @Hellspawn The pandaren would also fit either in 'go with the flow' or 'peace advocates,' depending on the specific pandaren.

[username993720]

Wrong.

I don't know if you're talking about WoW or pre-WoW factions, but in both cases that statement is wrong.

If you're thinking about pre-WoW, then the Alliance wasn't civilized or good. Human kingdoms fought each other, with Gilneas showing a middle finger to dying Lordaeronians, and keeping the orcs in cages was anything but civilized.
If you're thinking about WoW factions, then the Horde has not been "evil" or "monstrous". The whole idea behind establishing the Horde by Thrall was for outcasts to live together, in peace. To find their place in the world and to sustain it, because they'd perish if stuck alone. I also don't know what's the monstrous supposed to mean, especially in fantasy setting. Why are trolls deemed monstrous, but night elves aren't? Gnomes also aren't your usual humanoid race.

This thread is flawed from the very begining, because the identities that you assumed are wrong.
Even barring that, there's no such thing as identity in this universe. Races or characters will do a 180, going entirely against their character, if Blizz wants it so. Usually they do this becase a certain character or race have been relegated to a plot machine that's only purpose is to move the plot forward into the direction Blizzard wants it.

War of Thorns in particular proves that Blizzard has no regard to any identity. They will make a whole faction do a sudden 180 or suffer amnesia, because they had this cool idea for an event or an expension and nowadays they aren't creative enough to develop a cool, convincing story that would actually make sense. So instead they will keep abusing the easy ways, making the story inconsistent, but hey - at least they were able to push through their new vision of Azeroth or the universe - probably a 100th one during the games' development.

The Pandaren faction choice describes it the best:



This is what i meant.

[Powerogue]

So basically you have gross oversimplifications of the factions in your head, and want to throw out all the races that don't fit them anymore?

I'm saying this even while agreeing with you that some new characters, particularly new racial leaders like Gazlowe and Calia, run the risk of undermining the defining flaws of the races they're representing and making them less interesting as a result.

[Saltysquidoon]

The Pandaren faction choice describes it the best:

I'm sorry being ferocious, monstrous and having aggression is toxic in 2020 and blizzard can no longer stand behind that position.

[Kyphael]

I'm sorry being ferocious, monstrous and having aggression is toxic in 2020 and blizzard can no longer stand behind that position.

Don't let the world alter your view, especially pertaining to fiction. Ferocity, monstrosity, and aggression will always be alive and engrained in human DNA; it's nature, and no amount of social taming can breed that out humanity. We're mammals first and foremost and the rest is just fluff to better co-exist, dropped at the first true need to survive.

The point is, those are still qualities identifiable with The Horde, even during times of peace.

[Saltysquidoon]

Don't let the world alter your view, especially pertaining to fiction. Ferocity, monstrosity, and aggression will always be alive and engrained in human DNA; it's nature, and no amount of social taming can breed that out humanity. We're mammals first and foremost and the rest is just fluff to better co-exist, dropped at the first true need to survive.

I mean those are some pretty salient points with respect to evolutionary biology.

I was just clowning on Golden though.

[Super Dickmann]

We both know that if the dwarves ran the show again, these cosmic threats would be over in time for last call at the pub.

Every day I hope to see the Three Hammers do something meaningful and every day I'm disappointed. I'd hope Fenran Dagran II eventually aging would breathe some life into them, but we came through an expansion where following the shiny dwarven king was the whole of the main plot and yet save for helping his brother fly a helicopter there was zero acknowledgment of that.

[Thage]

Every day I hope to see the Three Hammers do something meaningful and every day I'm disappointed. I'd hope Fenran Dagran II eventually aging would breathe some life into them, but we came through an expansion where following the shiny dwarven king was the whole of the main plot and yet save for helping his brother fly a helicopter there was zero acknowledgment of that.

I'm forced to wonder how much Magni qualifies as a dwarf anymore, especially when he's got the planet's soul on speed-dial and has visibly shifted in perspective and priorities. I kind of wish that Anduin left Turalyon as regent to the throne, and put Muradin, Falstad, and Moira in charge of coordinating the Alliance in his absence given the dwarves' reliability in doing so when Varian was missing and Katrana was squandering Stormwind's forces on unrelated bullshit. The three of them would probably have 80% of the non-Shadowlands-related problems at hand sorted out and forces mobilized in a few hours, and it'd be nice to get a bit of the dwarves' no-shit-taken attitude back in the spotlight.

[Kyphael]

Every day I hope to see the Three Hammers do something meaningful and every day I'm disappointed. I'd hope Fenran Dagran II eventually aging would breathe some life into them, but we came through an expansion where following the shiny dwarven king was the whole of the main plot and yet save for helping his brother fly a helicopter there was zero acknowledgment of that.

I'm actually looking forward to the next generation so much, Dagran II, Thrall's children, and any other heirs Blizzard might conjure up out of thin air just because I've been reading about Tyrande, Malfurion, Sylvanas, the Bronzebeards, Anduin, and Lor'themar Theron, SO. LONG. They are so far up my nose, I've been feeling their boots on my chin for a good 10 years of lore now.

Ten years. For such stale characterization, it's staggering, yet their more interesting characters like Garrosh or Thrall, are put on the chopping block.

Of course the new generation will end up being written as poorly by the current writing team that would face the same limitations having to write for an MMO based around a war of two factions where neither faction can ever win (just saying that makes me want to tear my hair out, further emphasizing how creatively-stifling faction war stories can be), but at least I could see some fresh faces in-game I don't already instantly hate from being narratively over-exposed to me for over 10 years.