Raiding feels meaningless currently with to many forms of different progression

[Dalinos]

It doesnt matter more at all, if your raiding in classic then your gear is more than sufficiant to clear any content in the game already, i bet a group of decent players could clear naxx in pre raid BiS or just basic MC geared with no issues, gear just make things easier and the leap between MC gear and naxx gear in classic was not that big of a difference.

Excuse me?

Naxxramas-60 T3 gear is good enough to clear the first TBC raids with. Our tanks will literally walk into Karazhan using Dreadnaught and Thunderfury. What are you smoking? T3 has and always will be among the most powerful sets in existence (with respect to their relevant expansions). Look at https://classic.wowhead.com/item=230...wisting-nether. Tell me with a straight face that's not nearly T5 levels of power.

[A Chozo]

mythic raiding needs more incentives.

Mythic raiding cold give literal cash prizes with free pornhub membership - People would still avoid it like the plague, as they are doing right now.

[Kralljin]

Progressing your character does not mean only gear. It means whatever progress you want to achieve (mounts, transmog, reputations, gold, etc).

Doesn't change the fact that power progression remains the core.
Why do you think people keep complaining over something such as Corruption, Essences or AP Grinds, but one bats an eye at something like mount grinds?

Because cosmetic items are considered optional, power gains not.

[enigma77]

Mythic raiding cold give literal cash prizes with free pornhub membership - People would still avoid it like the plague, as they are doing right now.

So? The people who do like it get more stuff. Good for them.

[kenn9530]

Excuse me?

Naxxramas-60 T3 gear is good enough to clear the first TBC raids with. Our tanks will literally walk into Karazhan using Dreadnaught and Thunderfury. What are you smoking? T3 has and always will be among the most powerful sets in existence (with respect to their relevant expansions). Look at https://classic.wowhead.com/item=230...wisting-nether. Tell me with a straight face that's not nearly T5 levels of power.

I clearly said that all raids can be completed in classic with a basic set of raiding gear so all that naxx gear would do is make content get cleared faster, so its a fact that gear doesnt really matter all that much so stop trying to say it does. If you can clear naxx with a basic set from MC or even the entry lvl raiding set then gear is of little importance.

[A Chozo]

So? The people who do like it get more stuff. Good for them.

Bad for everyone else who want the stuff but won't get it because they lack the fingers and fucks.

Once they experiment that in-satisfaction the huge majority will avoid the game, and I'm sure you understand why Activision-Blizzard won't sacrifice the majority of the players in favor of some forgetable portion of the playerbase that raids Mythic.

Blizzard hits a nice balance with the current rewards system.

[LorDC]

Excuse me?

Naxxramas-60 T3 gear is good enough to clear the first TBC raids with. Our tanks will literally walk into Karazhan using Dreadnaught and Thunderfury. What are you smoking? T3 has and always will be among the most powerful sets in existence (with respect to their relevant expansions). Look at https://classic.wowhead.com/item=230...wisting-nether. Tell me with a straight face that's not nearly T5 levels of power.

It is straight up worse than TBC Heroic Dungeon drops:
https://tbcdb.com/?item=29353

[Wylyth1992]

Raiding should NEVER be the only way to progress.

[Drusin]

we asked for no rng systems, "let loot be loot". the only reason loot was thrown at us was BECAUSE of the rng. so, getting rid of one means we get rid of the other.

they arent going to throw loot at you so you can get geared quickly and complain about nothing to do for the next 6 months.

so yeah, we asked for it.

Yeah..but my question is what was the rate of loot incoming prior to *forging systems. If it's less then fuck them, if it's the same then cool. Let's put some hypothetical numbers to it:

Classic to PreForge MoP: You get 2 items a day
PostForging MoP to Now: You get 4 items a day
Fucky Shadowlands rate: You get 1 item a day

That's not what anyone asked for, the ideal rate would be 2 items per day. The rate of acquisition doesn't have to be what it is now but it shouldn't be less than what it was before.

[shyguybman]

3. How is getting 20 men for mythic a problem when in wrath (and explicitly in wrath) 25 man was the 'real' raid?

Wrath was the peak of wow in terms of numbers. There's also way more things you have to do outside of the raid to be able to raid which a lot of players don't want to do. And within the raid, they add more and more mechanics.

[Saltysquidoon]

Wrath was the peak of wow in terms of numbers. There's also way more things you have to do outside of the raid to be able to raid which a lot of players don't want to do. And within the raid, they add more and more mechanics.

Yes, but the numbers were essentially unrelated to raiding. I agree I wasn't a huge fan of the early AP grind in legion or BFA before they made both of them irrelevant.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with my point about raid sizes though.

[Kaver]

5. I'm not judging you, but people who raid primarily for gear are not people I want in my raid. If those people have transitioned exclusively to m+ then they never really wanted to raid in the first place, did they?

I agree 100 % with this. It’s completely fair that some people just want the rewards but I want to play with people who actually enjoys the journey. I feel the same way about M+. I almost never play with people who simply want to get the weekly chest. I want to group with people who actually enjoys M+ and enjoys pushing.

[Matthias]

I will say the lack of Tier Sets compells me not to bother raiding much this expansion.

Right now I only do the last 2 bosses in Ny'alotha for my catch up Core and the 475 Azerite gear. (why is heroic gear mostly 460 btw?)

Wheras in Legion (and all expansions prior since Siege of Orgrimmar) I would want to find a solid Heroic Pug to clear the raid most for Tier and some trinkets.

[Kralljin]

It is straight up worse than TBC Heroic Dungeon drops:
https://tbcdb.com/?item=29353

For fairness sake, the KT Mace is a poor example.

The Sapphiron trinkets are almost identical to the Badge ones, Sapphiron Cloaks are also pretty decent in TBC.
The KT Healer shield is superior to the Badge one.

Due to the itemization not being strictly Ilvl based, it's pretty difficult to find a consistent line here.

[docterfreeze]

A quick fix would be to make gear content specific. Raid gear is good in raids but mediocre in Mythic+ and PvP, etc. That way people won't be "forced" to do content they don't care about.

Yep exactly this. PvPers got to experience how great this approach is for a long time. Players should be able to choose their preferred endgame without being pressured to do something they don't want to do.

[Team]

Honestly at least LFR/Heroic/Mythic would be better. Normal and LFR is honestly useless but I think removing normal would benefit EVERYONE. LFR players would still be able to see the content.

Now that I say that, just rename heroic to normal and mythic to heroic.

At the end of the day I'd love to see just heroic/mythic exist but that's NEVER going to happen.

It's no wonder balancing issues happen lol

[Mx343]

Honestly at least LFR/Heroic/Mythic would be better. Normal and LFR is honestly useless but I think removing normal would benefit EVERYONE. LFR players would still be able to see the content.

Now that I say that, just rename heroic to normal and mythic to heroic.

At the end of the day I'd love to see just heroic/mythic exist but that's NEVER going to happen.

It's no wonder balancing issues happen lol

The problem I see is that there a lot of players/guilds which only raid normal and cannot raid heroic (maybe because of skill or what ever) and to force them into the LFR is just bonkers.
For me personally scrap the loot out of LFR so it's just about the story.
Scrap the loot out of Mythic so it's just for challenge with some titels/mounts/tmogs.
Make NHC and HC a little bit harder.
M+ 15 dungeon chest 10 ilevel less than HC raid.
Weekly chest = HC item level

New raid tiers should have smaller ilevel increase.
In BFA you had more or less 150 ilevel difference between Uldir and last raid.

[Team]

The problem I see is that there a lot of players/guilds which only raid normal and cannot raid heroic (maybe because of skill or what ever) and to force them into the LFR is just bonkers.
For me personally scrap the loot out of LFR so it's just about the story.
Scrap the loot out of Mythic so it's just for challenge with some titels/mounts/tmogs.
Make NHC and HC a little bit harder.
M+ 15 dungeon chest 10 ilevel less than HC raid.
Weekly chest = HC item level

New raid tiers should have smaller ilevel increase.
In BFA you had more or less 150 ilevel difference between Uldir and last raid.

Yeah that's a decent change I could get behind honestly didn't even think of that lmao.

The ilevel difference is CRAZY. I remember a few weeks ago I did Glory of the Uldir Raider and with current gear it's literally a joke. So the argument about the ilevel disparity difference is 100% true.

[Athulua]

I liked past systems and i like current system as well.

My favourite system got to be Cataclysm patch 4.3
-hit level 85
-buy some vicious i377 pvp gear on AH (cheap blue pieces, no limit on # you can wear)
-queue for 4.3 heroics and farm a set of i378 gear
-fill out missing pieces with Justice Point vendor that sells i378 gear from Firelands (including some tier pieces!)
-you are also gaining Valor, this can purchase you i397 gear from the vendor = equal to Normal current tier
-there, you're ready to raid current tier which is 397-403 / 410-416.

I really missed that type of gearing. Zero questing, zero vision grinding, zero rep farming, zero essence farming. No time gated content except for Valor Point vendor being capped at 1000 VP a week.

The raid of patch 4.3 (DS) was a pile of garbage but the gearing system was damn near perfection. No RNG whatsoever, you get the item A it is always item A.

[Amaterasu65]

They could have added tokens to 2 last bosses' loot table that would be used on a mythic raid loot and increase its ilvl to 485 minus Azerite.