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  1. #161
    I Don't Work Here Endus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indara View Post
    He also has fearmongered about muslims. How they will make it illegal to be lgbt and other stuff if Muslim immigration isn't stopped.
    Right. I just wanted to stick to entirely what was clear just from this one particular essay of his, and his own self-identifications and descriptions of his own ideological outlook, rather than bringing in interpretations of such by third parties. Because the point is that this isn't some assertion others are forcing upon Kyeyune unfairly; it's literally what he spent that entire essay trying to say.


  2. #162
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indara View Post
    He also has fearmongered about muslims. How they will make it illegal to be lgbt and other stuff if Muslim immigration to sweden isn't stopped.
    Being alienated don't you know, make one a Nazi, feel free to cite where he is advocating Nazism. By the way, here is his personal blog, and twitter, so if you can find him advocating for Nazism, feel free to present your case.

    Plus your insistence on getting super off-topic to litigate his character as a person and not the actual topic kind of says a lot about the inability to grapple with what is said. Or to just live with the moral ambiguity of a certain person or topic. In fact on some level this frantic push kind of proves one of Malcom's core points in the OP, that its an unspoken omerta to never turn the class analysis machine into self-reflection, which is what he did in the OP.

    Plus Alienation means "experiencing or inducing feelings of isolation or estrangement.", not exactly smoking proof of wanting to put people in camps.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  3. #163
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indara View Post
    I didn't say he's a nazi. He's a Islamophobe which supports violence to achieve political goals.
    Can you cite him being Islamophobic?

    For the record, your first comment that I saw was:
    Quote Originally Posted by Indara View Post
    Malcolm is a member of the conservative think-tank called oikos. The founder of the think-tank was the second in charge of the Sweden Democrats party, whose foundation lies in nazism.
    Which didn't suggest he is Islamophobic but suggested via implication some secret taint or connection to Nazism via six to twelve degrees of separation. So pardon me for being sceptical but this seems like a moving target, you are going to accuse him of being anything and everything because making a character attack on someone is easier than say grappling with his analysis which you don't personally want to do.

    Which is funny enough one of his core points. That a class analysis of the self is hotly rejected. So basically, if you are going to accuse him of Witchcraft please directly do so and bring the evidence to bare. I sincerely hope it is more compelling than your initial post which amounted to "He worked for oikos! Thus a Nazi" by implication and innuendo. Heck, are we now going to also so Angela Nagle is an Islamaphobe for appearing on more than one podcast with Malcolm to have friendly discussions? Because I'd really like to nail down WHAT you accuse him of, since you seem to shift and move on what you are calling him, with your first post just mentioning his name, an association and then by implication Nazism.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Remittance payments is hardly a solution to global poverty. How we get to, it being acceptable for the upper class to exploit labour, suppress wages in one country, is actually a good thing because the new exploited labourers get some of the material wealth that would have gone to this or any countries local working-class instead going to an imported labourer for a roundabout global charity is plainly daft. Like, for one the only person being penalized for the rich nations wealth extraction is those nations poor people, and the beneficiaries are its well off a class of Capital. You seem to have articulated a position that it is okay, and just for the P.M.C class to both enjoy the enrichment of cheap labour and exploiting a never-ending wage suppression on the Working Class on the grounds that its part of some global push for justice via a global charity scheme through remittance payments. So the class of people get to double-dip, they both get to be enriched BY that wealth extraction and also materially enriched by your remittance global charity system to compensate and the losers are just some other part of the Working Class whom must take it on the chin as an act of "Solidarity" when it is nakedly just one class enriching itself twice over off of a situation.

    Maybe I'm misreading you but that seems really wild.
    I don't know if you're misreading me, I just find it surprising that one could surmise from my comment that I'm siding with the PMC or more specifically its anticommunist leftist branch. I know those people take advantage, and I hate that, but as I said before, we can't put the cart before the horse. Tightening the anti-immigration policies is going to have a real, well-expected effect of eliminating remittances to South America and Africa, and I guess Asia to a little extent. Not addressing globalisation first is surely gonna increase the social contradictions that may cause societal change, but in the worst way possible: through the suffering of the least fortunate.
    I know anecdotal evidence doesn't account for much, but you'll have a hard time believing how much people from the poor Latin American families can do with some few dollars.

  5. #165
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsonsion View Post
    I don't know if you're misreading me, I just find it surprising that one could surmise from my comment that I'm siding with the PMC or more specifically its anticommunist leftist branch. I know those people take advantage, and I hate that, but as I said before, we can't put the cart before the horse. Tightening the anti-immigration policies is going to have a real, well-expected effect of eliminating remittances to South America and Africa, and I guess Asia to a little extent. Not addressing globalisation first is surely gonna increase the social contradictions that may cause societal change, but in the worst way possible: through the suffering of the least fortunate.
    I know anecdotal evidence doesn't account for much, but you'll have a hard time believing how much people from the poor Latin American families can do with some few dollars.
    Well, I cannot see who benefits other than the PMC as a class. Our of this schema they get:
    1) To enrich themselves from the material wealth of extraction from these various countries.
    2) To enrich themselves from free-flowing labour and the resulting wage suppression.
    3) To feel morally good about number one, because number two leads to remittance sent back to the country exploited.

    And tightening immigration by nature does deal with globalization, free movement of capital and labour benefits the PMC, it benefits Capital. So it does sound like you are making a strong case for the moral hygiene of the PMC by essentially splitting the Working Class against itself; allowing the PMC to both get wealth from that wealth extraction in the first place AND from wage suppression of cheap labour in the second instance. And even better for them, doing so makes them morally good and absolved of guilt because they are making it possible for remittance payments to flow to that country of origin for the exploited labourers. It seems as though the only losers, the only ones to suffer are the working class in say the United States. Which seems completely wrong.

    The winners are the classes above that both get the wealth from that wealth extraction and cheap labour and get to be morally good all in one package. And hey, you say we need to address globalization, well, clamp down on the free movement of capital and labour and there you go, Globalization clamped down on. It is just a set of policy decisions on some slips of paper in the end. And if the point of "Well those people in say South America might suffer some pain!" Well, by your own description it is okay for some portion of the global Working Class to suffer for the sake of a kind of greater good, so, I am unconvinced why this would bother you. At least by my suggestions the PMC isn't winning, but by yours they have all the power and effectively win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Well, I cannot see who benefits other than the PMC as a class. Our of this schema they get:
    1) To enrich themselves from the material wealth of extraction from these various countries.
    2) To enrich themselves from free-flowing labour and the resulting wage suppression.
    3) To feel morally good about number one, because number two leads to remittance sent back to the country exploited.

    And tightening immigration by nature does deal with globalization, free movement of capital and labour benefits the PMC, it benefits Capital. So it does sound like you are making a strong case for the moral hygiene of the PMC by essentially splitting the Working Class against itself; allowing the PMC to both get wealth from that wealth extraction in the first place AND from wage suppression of cheap labour in the second instance. And even better for them, doing so makes them morally good and absolved of guilt because they are making it possible for remittance payments to flow to that country of origin for the exploited labourers. It seems as though the only losers, the only ones to suffer are the working class in say the United States. Which seems completely wrong.

    The winners are the classes above that both get the wealth from that wealth extraction and cheap labour and get to be morally good all in one package. And hey, you say we need to address globalization, well, clamp down on the free movement of capital and labour and there you go, Globalization clamped down on. It is just a set of policy decisions on some slips of paper in the end. And if the point of "Well those people in say South America might suffer some pain!" Well, by your own description it is okay for some portion of the global Working Class to suffer for the sake of a kind of greater good, so, I am unconvinced why this would bother you. At least by my suggestions the PMC isn't winning, but by yours they have all the power and effectively win.
    I'm as unconvinced by your willingness to push for the end of globalisation after the implementation of reactionary-aligned restrictive immigration policies as you are by my concern for the suffering of people. The working class in the first world has access to resources that the working class of the third world hasn't.
    I wish the US PMC nothing but the sweet embrace of death, but I think vindication is way less important than the minimisation of suffering. After all, that's what led me to socialist ideas in the first place. And I don't think you can reach a stable revolutionary society if you can't count on international support. But you're way smarter than me so probably you thought of that already.

  7. #167
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Indara View Post
    http://www.gp.se/ledare/kyeyune-demo...ende-1.6842555

    He's calling oppression of muslims democratic and thinks we should listen to those want to oppress muslims, because that's democracy.

    https://ledarsidorna.se/2018/11/ssus...l-hora-svaret/

    He's saying we can't allow muslim immigration or they will make it illegal to be lgbt.
    First Article, which I had to enter into google translate because I don't speek Swedish:
    In recent decades, our policy has come to revolve more and more around the shelf of the small, the narrow, the different, the exotic. You've all heard the more famous quotes from this genre. From Mona Sahlin ("[immigrants] have a culture, an identity, a story, something that binds you together. And what do we have?"), To Reinfeldt ("Obviously, it's just barbarism"), to Reinfeldt again ("Is it here is a country owned by those who have lived here for three or four generations or is Sweden what people who come here in the middle of their lives make it and develop it? ).

    In fact, from the far left to the clean room, one has been able to agree on more than any side really wants to admit. From its roots in the explicit majority ideology of socialism, the left is now fully focused on minorities, and the not-so-new Moderates have also come a long way. The hip right, too, loves sexy minorities: the more quirky and exciting you are, the more you fit into a social vision liberated from gray mills and oppressive collectives; a society entirely focused on the free, solitary individual. Build a mosque, baby. Feel free to build three, baby.

    Being part of some sort of majority group today often means that the best you can expect is disinterest, or an education that you shouldn't come to complain about. In an interview in The Guardian, the author Lionel Shriver pointed out that modern literature loves to treat the immigrant and his perspective, while being totally uninterested in the perspective of the people whose home is transformed. Do they like this? Did they want this? Who the fuck cares? Their perspective doesn't matter; if they have an opinion it is probably racist. Who owns Sweden? Reinfeldt does not hesitate for a second; he already knows the answer.

    All this in a democratic system where a skull, a vote applies. In fact, the most fascinating thing about our time is how incredibly surprised our politicians seem to be at the fact that their world is now falling apart. Build a mosque, baby! Those who do not like mosques can go to hell; all the righteous and good are ashamed to share land with you.

    Did nobody really think about not only sharing land but also sharing ballot boxes with these people? It's crazy, but the answer seems to have been no. The thinking shone with its absence. Glorifying minorities and cutting back on majorities to cure all their privileges may be ideologically satisfying, but it is lousy practice. You can listen to the majority, or you can get fired and be replaced by politicians and parties who listen. That this happens is not a sign that democracy is dying.

    Democracy works when SD had 0.4%, and it will work if (when?) It reaches 30%. The reason is simple: democracy is not social democratic or center-partist, it is not humanistic or socialist, it is not tolerant, not xenophobic, it is not even liberal. Democracy is democratic, and that is also the only thing it is. The second you forget it you have already lost.
    He seems to lament the fetishization of "minority" culture as a kind of fashion, and points out the Democracy really is just a means of making decisions, it isn't really a reflection of Democracy if the people vote for Socialism, Vermin-Supreme, or to replace every statue with one of Sailor Moon. Maybe I am missing his words, or its lost in translation but I don't see him suggesting anything Islamaphobic, hell he mentioned the building of Mosques as part of his gripe against the fetishization of the exotic, I read this as being against orientalism and exoticising people. So maybe you can explain exactly how it's well whatever you are accusing him of. Finally, he is actually astutely correct, in a Democracy if the majority decide they don't want something and vote for that, that is by nature democratic.

    Now the second article, again google gods hopefully are accurately representing this:
    During the weeks that have passed, we have been able to write another chapter in the story about the growing problems of the Swedish parties in dealing with a new Sweden, a Sweden they themselves were actually involved in creating. This time, the story is not about a couple of individuals, but about an entire district in SSU over which the Social Democracy lost control. In the media, we now read about the harms, about how political "extremism" manages to sneak up once again, how it harmed yet another political victim.

    But is this really just about extremism? There is a deeper problem in this story that no one seems to have encountered yet. The phalanx that has taken over in Skåne has expressed condescension about women, gays and other groups. One has mocked non-believers and questioned secularism as the norm. The explanation has become the old custom: all this contradicts the values, and that people with such attitudes do not belong in politics. But this chorus, however reassuring it may be, begins to suffer from problems.

    Many of the views expressed in the district are not "extreme". On the contrary, they are very commonplace in large parts of the world, and it has long been accepted that the rest of the world must be allowed to come to us. People think differently, especially in different parts of the world. Sweden is not a country that is in any way representative of other countries, whether culturally or ideologically. Sweden is the exception, not the rule.

    This is what makes the conflict in SSU so difficult to deal with simply by talking about "values" and "extremism". In a city like Malmö, people with an overseas background are not a small minority; rather, they are about to form a larger constituency than Swedish-born. What political status should they really have? Sweden today does not have the same "value foundation" that we had for, say, a hundred years ago. In a democracy, all members have the right to decide what is important, the right to decide which principles should apply, which rights to respect and which groups to protect.

    The problems in SSU show a growing kind of collision that is not unique to SSU: there are values ​​and political positions that we today imagine that "everyone" should or must share, because otherwise they are not part of politics. At the same time, the group of people who are not part of this "everyone" above is growing, but who still do not feel encouraged to throw their opinions and political values ​​on the wasteland. This tension would not be particularly dangerous if Sweden was a country where the “everyone” group had such a devastating majority that nothing outside it could be assumed to play any role. But this is no longer a Sweden we live in; locally or regionally, it is not difficult to see a situation where the group that agrees with our supposedly shared value assumptions is a minority, and where the group with supposedly extremist views that do not respect the consensus of politics are numerically superior. In fact, it is possible to trace the contours of this particular fear even in the SSU conflict: in one of the articles, a former member states that what has happened is a symptom of the "labor movement's weakness". The old workers disappear, new people come in, and suddenly you have an organization where completely different views and behavior patterns take place.

    I can sympathize with this abandonment. But the abandonment, however sympathetic it is, only shows that nobody really thought through what politics actually means. Should new Swedes have the same political rights as the old Swedes, or should they be adapted to a political children's table until they are adults enough to jam into consensus? For the sake of argument, let's say that Annie Lööf's example with a Sweden with 30 million inhabitants was true. If a majority of the population in this new Sweden voted to criminalize homosexuality, and had enough parliamentary support to enforce any constitutional amendments, would this in any way be unlawful or wrong?

    To speak of the values ​​of value and to come up with accepted truths about people's equal value or the like must be as progressive and humane as possible. But in practice, it actually means a belief in and encouragement for political apartheid: a view where people's right to be part of the political system is dependent on a sufficient degree of intellectual "maturity" to be able to trust that you do not vote for immoral or harmful things. This approach is not new; rather, it was precisely this kind of argument that was used to explain why poor workers and women should never be allowed to be part of the political system. It was the same kind of view that white residents of Rhodesia (today's Zimbabwe) used to defend minority rule: if we let the majority decide, they will rule the country right down in the ruin.

    In Sweden, we have so far solved violations of today's accepted political consensus in two ways. Firstly, we have always emphasized that there is absolutely not even a Swedish political consensus to begin with, because in Sweden you only work with universal values. There are no Swedish values, there is no Swedish culture. There is only pure and cut humanity, where we Swedes - without a shame in the body - happily claim that everything we happen to think on various issues represents the purest, most artificial way of being human. Secondly, we have solved the problem of the increasing prevalence of people breaking the norm by excluding them and viewing them as sad, extremist bugs in an otherwise well-functioning democratic system.

    The Swedish political debate today is increasingly similar to an iceberg; Above the surface we are still talking about extremism and fundamental violations as before, as if nothing if nothing has changed over time; beneath the surface lies a huge and growing mass of anxiety and mistrust for the future.

    Why this distrust? Well, because both of these methods above are starting to reach the end of the road. The time when they really worked is coming to an end. The old political parties are getting weaker and weaker; their ability to act as gatekeepers on the paths of political consensus is pouring. At the same time, the dreams of the Swede, as the mother of all things, have proved extremely powerless in the ongoing clash with reality. Did all Swedes really get off on a ride with the Swedish metro? Recent reports on the percentage of pupils in the school in, among other places, Gothenburg who live under reverence do not seem to directly provide any greater support for that dream.

    In fact, I have to admit that it is extremely difficult to say where all this will end. The fact that so many are so deeply invested in the project to dismiss the existence of all opinions other than those prevalent on diversity courses and in municipal governance documents as a temporary bug in the system is not a good sign. How many people are really prepared to accept these views, the day the dream of being "brought up" away is no longer realistic? One of the most dramatic scenes from Sweden in recent years is to me all the pictures where obviously adult people - men with wife and children in their home countries - are painstakingly transfixed by their Swedish host families. The degree of attachment that could create such a situation - where adult men are treated as fifteen-year-olds, and where adults put all doubts aside and go into the role of tender foster parents - may not have been good for anyone.

    These scenes are easy to remember. They are easy to laugh at, because whoever feels that way. But on a larger plane, almost the entire country has fallen in love with the dream of a much larger project of nursing and tenderness, and that love goes back decades. Sweden dreamed of taking care of, of educating, of "civilizing" those who came here, until they were completed as small images of ourselves.

    They would enchant us with their food and their exotic dances, and in return, we would have them put aside all their old Malay traditions, gender roles and primitive ideologies. But a democracy cannot work that way; it cannot be based on adults, independent people forever being dressed with a baby bottle and bib. Will everyone still love all those who think differently the day they demand to stop being children?
    Okay, this is a bit of an exhaustive read because it both didn't fully translate well, and words came out literally where I am sure there is some sort of idiom at play. I think here it seems he is posing the question, what do you do in a Democratic society with the importation of people whose values and beliefs you don't necessarily share? So, for example, the rights of women. Because in a Democracy all have a vote, you can't just arbitrarily say someone's democratic vote doesn't count because they have view X, Y, or Z. Plus here at the end, he seems to hit at the real moral ambiguity of this issue. Namely that it is racist and orientalist to assume that the Swedes are going to civilize people as if people from other parts of the world are uncivilized. But at the same time, if you don't engage in that project in a serious way people might bring and hold values you don't necessarily want persisting. Like in America, all people have a democratic voice, including saying someone who believes Black Americans are subhuman or basically animals, or people who believe West Africans built the Aztec/Mayan/Olmec civilization. It is a kind of infantilization to see the other as in need of civilizing and is hazardous because the view is close to saying the American example of putting indigenous people into boarding schools to deprive them of all Native American culture and language, it is treating other people as children. Which he points to towards the end, Swedes effectively treat the Muslim people as children in need of civilizing, but what does one do when you know, they demand to be treated as adults? I am maybe not seeing any hatred here, It is morally ambiguous, but that is not a problem. So, you'll have to parse it out for me to form your case.

    OR, better yet, start your own thread because I don't want my thread to be you linking to Swedish language articles, with one-sentence descriptors and then me having to google translate and parse an entire article to determine the veracity of your claims. That is rather time-consuming. So I'll ask that if you insist, please provide a source, a paragraph translated into English and a link to the source as well as maybe tell me which paragraph in the Swedish language text it corresponds to so I can try and verify and respond. Otherwise, I feel like this will become a kind of Gish Gallop situation where from my perspective someone is sending me lots of links, with minimal descriptions and I have to do a lot of painstaking work to figure out what is being said and verify.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dsonsion View Post
    I'm as unconvinced by your willingness to push for the end of globalisation after the implementation of reactionary-aligned restrictive immigration policies as you are by my concern for the suffering of people. The working class in the first world has access to resources that the working class of the third world hasn't.
    I wish the US PMC nothing but the sweet embrace of death, but I think vindication is way less important than the minimisation of suffering. After all, that's what led me to socialist ideas in the first place. And I don't think you can reach a stable revolutionary society if you can't count on international support. But you're way smarter than me so probably you thought of that already.
    I am unconvinced of your plan to end globalization since I spelt out exactly what to do, end free movement of capital and labour. As for "alignment", well that is the point of the article, that the political formation that dominates today's "Left" parties are PMC aligned and thus their move towards Open Borders is rather self-serving and a reflection on their material class interest. You haven't spelt out what you would do about the PMC, just suggested you don't like them, which is fine. But that isn't a suggestion for action, I suggested action. Well, Angela Nagle suggested action that I agree with.

    Your crux is it seems to be morally concerned that in the interest of a kind of harm reduction point we should surrender to Capital, do nothing, and also split the Working Class against itself for the material enrichment of Capital and its servitors in the PMC's AND also grant them the moral hygiene via a Remittance Payment Charity at the expense of one part of the Working Class to marginally help the other Working-Class bits and what? We stay in a forever stalemate doing nothing? Because so far only Nagle has put out something achievable and charted out. As for remittance, via Wikipedia (Take it for what it's worth) "According to the World Bank, in 2018 overall global remittance grew 10% to US$689 billion, including US$528 billion to developing countries." We can if you are so concerned cut the whole world a check from wealth redistribution to the tune of a trillion (Since the US seems capable of conjuring a trillion bucks to save financiers, that doesn't seem like a tall order). There we've got globalization vanquished, AND doubled the "developing worlds" remittance payments for awhile while they sort things out, until things stabilize and Mexican farmers, for example, aren't being ruthlessly bankrupted by NAFTA since NAFTA is dead in this scenario. Because right now all I see from you is a case that in the interest of so-called harm reduction we must surrender entirely to the PMC and its interests and just accept this until some later indeterminate date when something else will happen? Maybe after the entire US Working Class has died of opioids and thus this all sorts itself out maybe? Who knows.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post


    I am unconvinced of your plan to end globalization since I spelt out exactly what to do, end free movement of capital and labour. As for "alignment", well that is the point of the article, that the political formation that dominates today's "Left" parties are PMC aligned and thus their move towards Open Borders is rather self-serving and a reflection on their material class interest. You haven't spelt out what you would do about the PMC, just suggested you don't like them, which is fine. But that isn't a suggestion for action, I suggested action. Well, Angela Nagle suggested action that I agree with.

    Your crux is it seems to be morally concerned that in the interest of a kind of harm reduction point we should surrender to Capital, do nothing, and also split the Working Class against itself for the material enrichment of Capital and its servitors in the PMC's AND also grant them the moral hygiene via a Remittance Payment Charity at the expense of one part of the Working Class to marginally help the other Working-Class bits and what? We stay in a forever stalemate doing nothing? Because so far only Nagle has put out something achievable and charted out. As for remittance, via Wikipedia (Take it for what it's worth) "According to the World Bank, in 2018 overall global remittance grew 10% to US$689 billion, including US$528 billion to developing countries." We can if you are so concerned cut the whole world a check from wealth redistribution to the tune of a trillion (Since the US seems capable of conjuring a trillion bucks to save financiers, that doesn't seem like a tall order). There we've got globalization vanquished, AND doubled the "developing worlds" remittance payments for awhile while they sort things out, until things stabilize and Mexican farmers, for example, aren't being ruthlessly bankrupted by NAFTA since NAFTA is dead in this scenario. Because right now all I see from you is a case that in the interest of so-called harm reduction we must surrender entirely to the PMC and its interests and just accept this until some later indeterminate date when something else will happen? Maybe after the entire US Working Class has died of opioids and thus this all sorts itself out maybe? Who knows.
    Don't mistake me for a liberal or one of those sunday afternoon hobby leftists. The plan is to stop immigration to empower the US working class, right? Who's gonna let you do that? Which political movement has enough popular support to do that while also intending to actually clamp down on imperialism afterwards?

    I think a more valid alternative is bypassing that particular issue and supporting revolutionary movements in the colonial countries that will cut off the wealth supply to the imperalistic powers. Even the shitty ones like Bolivia or Venezuela.

  9. #169
    So, why are people still entertaining the idea that liberals just need to be more ethno-natioanlistic, and more like the Nazis?

  10. #170
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsonsion View Post
    Don't mistake me for a liberal or one of those sunday afternoon hobby leftists. The plan is to stop immigration to empower the US working class, right? Who's gonna let you do that? Which political movement has enough popular support to do that while also intending to actually clamp down on imperialism afterwards?

    I think a more valid alternative is bypassing that particular issue and supporting revolutionary movements in the colonial countries that will cut off the wealth supply to the imperalistic powers. Even the shitty ones like Bolivia or Venezuela.
    First, I endorse said movements in Bolivia and Venezuela and ending US Imperialism, so we agree on that. But in a US Context, there is no political party that is for that either. Even AOC endorsed the coup in Venezuela last I checked. Second, given the first point, neither major political party is suited to a Working-Class oriented political project, any more than either is an Anti-Imperial project. So you want to have a Worker centred Anti-Imperial political party? Well, you can either engage in a long war for the Democratic Party which at present is most solidified with the PMC, or you can wage a war to claim the Republican Party from its Oligarchs. I, nor Nagle, never even said the word STOP I believe. I presented things as a spectrum between Open Borders and Closed Borders, the closer you are to Closed Borders, the better the labour market will be for maids, the closer it is to Open Borders the worse it will be for maids. A completely locked down border, outside of say, a global pandemic or something doesn't seem to be what anyone is advocating, I can think of plenty of reasons for newcomers; increasing the labour pool isn't in my view one of those reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Howel View Post
    [...]
    I am going to politely but firmly suggest you stop using insults to try and get your point across.

    At this point are disagreement is essentially over what is the worth of farmhand/maid/whatever, or if anything politically should be done to empower their position. I say yes, you say no. I am unsure either of us is going to move the other on this position, and unless you have some new point I haven't responded to, then we are just going in circles and you are progressively getting agitated and apt to use invective and insults which is uncalled for.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    First, I endorse said movements in Bolivia and Venezuela and ending US Imperialism, so we agree on that. But in a US Context, there is no political party that is for that either. Even AOC endorsed the coup in Venezuela last I checked. Second, given the first point, neither major political party is suited to a Working-Class oriented political project, any more than either is an Anti-Imperial project. So you want to have a Worker centred Anti-Imperial political party? Well, you can either engage in a long war for the Democratic Party which at present is most solidified with the PMC, or you can wage a war to claim the Republican Party from its Oligarchs. I, nor Nagle, never even said the word STOP I believe. I presented things as a spectrum between Open Borders and Closed Borders, the closer you are to Closed Borders, the better the labour market will be for maids, the closer it is to Open Borders the worse it will be for maids. A completely locked down border, outside of say, a global pandemic or something doesn't seem to be what anyone is advocating, I can think of plenty of reasons for newcomers; increasing the labour pool isn't in my view one of those reasons.
    Fine, I know you're not dealing in absolutes and are sensible enough to adapt to implement actual change. Yet to think that taking over the Republican party is a fairy tale.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
    So, why are people still entertaining the idea that liberals just need to be more ethno-natioanlistic, and more like the Nazis?
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Actual leftists are VERY anti racists, and anti ethno-nationalism.
    Forgive my english, as i'm not a native speaker



  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by Thepersona View Post
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Actual leftists are VERY anti racists, and anti ethno-nationalism.
    It's almost as if certain people are really just being highly disingenuous by peddling... actual fucking Nazism.

  14. #174
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsonsion View Post
    Fine, I know you're not dealing in absolutes and are sensible enough to adapt to implement actual change. Yet to think that taking over the Republican party is a fairy tale.
    At this point, it's as much of a fairy tale as taking over the Democratic Party, as the defeat of even a tepid DemSoc like Bernard Sanders has illustrated. AOC is already down with global imperialism and isn't going to re-orient away from her PMC roots. I may like her personally and agree with her in many areas but I can't deny what interests she ultimately serves. I am levelling that if you are talking about "Well what are you going to do politically?", there is your answer, pick a fortress and try and overtake it. In my assessment, both are equally difficult to ever overcome. Socialists have been trying to overtake the Democratic party for half a century and if anything is in a worse and weaker position now than before the 1970s. So if anything the situation there has only gotten worse. So my point is, pick your entrenched set of political obstacles and deal with them. Or found a third party in a serious way.

    We still leave with Angela Nagle having an actual program, and you seemingly advocating capitulation for the purposes of a remittance based global charity scheme as harm reduction and just asking one segment of the working class to take it on the chin for some indefinite period of time until...... I don't know.... either their opioid fueled liquidation or something super improbable like the second coming of Jesus. So far from you, I've gotten "But that might cause harm" ignoring that the status quo causes harm, and that in general, you've not said what your counterplan is other than "Fight Globalization!" How? I don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thepersona View Post
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Actual leftists are VERY anti racists, and anti ethno-nationalism.
    Please take said off-topic discussion to more appropriate threads such as the Trump focused mega-thread, or say the issue of policing and resistance towards racism and Black Lives Matter activism to say this thread about the ongoing protests.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    AOC is already down with global imperialism and isn't going to re-orient away from her PMC roots. I may like her personally and agree with her in many areas but I can't deny what interests she ultimately serves.
    Truly, nobody is pure enough and everyone has been corrupted.

  16. #176
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edge- View Post
    Truly, nobody is pure enough and everyone has been corrupted.
    No, nobody is, but in the context of my discussion with Dsonsion; the point is being raised since Dsonsion brought up Venezuela and Bolivia and the issue of Imperialism and I responded that the issue of having an Anti-Imperialist, Pro-Worker party is that neither current US political party is that and overtaking either one to enact these platforms is that both parties are dominated by the inverse of these platforms.

    If you wish to discuss AOC directly, there is a thread about the United States general election.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    On MMO-C we learn that Anti-Fascism is locking arms with corporations, the State Department and agreeing with the CIA, But opposing the CIA and corporate America, and thinking Jews have a right to buy land and can expect tenants to pay rent THAT is ultra-Fash Nazism. Bellingcat is an MI6/CIA cut out. Clyburn Truther.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    No, nobody is, but in the context of my discussion with Dsonsion; the point is being raised since Dsonsion brought up Venezuela and Bolivia and the issue of Imperialism and I responded that the issue of having an Anti-Imperialist, Pro-Worker party is that neither current US political party is that and overtaking either one to enact these platforms is that both parties are dominated by the inverse of these platforms.

    If you wish to discuss AOC directly, there is a thread about the United States general election.
    So, to be clear, you think that we should embrace ethno-nationalism, and that the main problem with the Nazis, is that they weren't socialist enough?

  18. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Endus View Post
    He literally states that he is himself a Strasserite. His words regarding Strasserites; "we exist".


    Seriously, dude, I didn't call him a Nazi. I pointed out he was admitting he was a Nazi.

    Pretty big goddamned difference, there.

    And I really don't see the point in quibbling over what particular flavor of Nazi he was. Sure, the Strassers were among those targeted in the Night of the Long Knives. But that doesn't mean they were good people. Still Nazis. As in "card-carrying members of the Nazi Party and some of the major thinkers involved in guiding that Party's ideology".

    I do not think anything he was discussing here was particularly Nazi-adjacent. I thought it was really fucking weird that he was pulling out the Strassers and admitting to being a follower of theirs. So I highlit that admission. That's it.
    First, I agree with you on the major point that not all struggle is class struggle, the article overdoes that a bit. I also see what's going on in the thread regarding the article author (Malcolm Kyeyune), I'm not joining that fight, I'll just defend my position and move on.

    Second, yes Strasser brothers were indeed members of NSDAP - but they were purged before the party did bad things it's famous for, because they were ideologically incompatible with Hitler. Just like not every socialist is compatible with Stalin's or Mao's version of socialism.

    As for Malcolm Kyeyune calling himself a Nazi, I'm reading him differently. I'll requote relevant parts (note the bolded sentences):
    We begin with the obvious. Strasserism does not actually exist. Nobody reads the Strasser brothers, not even the neo-Nazis who threw accusations of Strasserism at each other decades before anyone else.
    It is only if you break the rules of the game, only if you acknowledge the man behind the curtain, only if you point to the basic truth hidden behind this outer layer of ironic self-mockery that you become one of us, one of the so-called Strasserites. This truth is a fairly simple Marxist truth. Classes have class interests, and so the idea that you could have a political movement—the left—that was well and truly dominated by one class, yet still wholly committed to the class interests of another class, but also just too bumbling and out of touch to ever do a good job of looking out for the class it supposedly cares about is, to put it extremely mildly, a dubious idea. It is much more likely that a political movement dominated by one class will also be more or less entirely dedicated to pursuing the class interests of that class, while also being unable to take any strong action that goes against the interests of its dominant class.
    As I have said, nobody remembers the Strasser brothers, and “Strasserism” is not a serious ideology anyone holds today. But we exist. We, forgotten friends and discarded comrades shall soon return to rattle our chains. What alienated us from the left was not racism, nor malice, nor bloodthirst. What made us first strangers and then enemies was a political disagreement—one the left would like to bury and pretend does not exist: the question of the fate and future of the social and economic class the left recruits from and fights for.
    Clearly he says that just like Strasserites were cast out by Hitler's Nazis, he and others like him were cast out by the PMC's left, and not that he's a follower of a group that was defeated 86 years ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Howel View Post
    Farmers have been the lowest rung on society, and have always been one the poorest in society, and a job everyone fled the second they could. Immigration didn't change that, it kept up with it.
    Landless farmhands sort of (if you don't count proletariat), landed farmers not at all, at least here, not ever, including today, farmers are well off here. Anyway, isn't the cornerstone idea of leftism to eliminate these rungs, not enshrine them?
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    It's not 2004. People have lives, jobs, families etc

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    I am going to politely but firmly suggest you stop using insults to try and get your point across.

    At this point are disagreement is essentially over what is the worth of farmhand/maid/whatever, or if anything politically should be done to empower their position. I say yes, you say no. I am unsure either of us is going to move the other on this position, and unless you have some new point I haven't responded to, then we are just going in circles and you are progressively getting agitated and apt to use invective and insults which is uncalled for.
    I am not gonna stop, because I am dealing with someone that is quite frankly just virtue signalling idealistic BS.
    I'll not see a repeat of my childhood, of the absolute collapsing of industries, because socialists sit around thinking that if we just demand more money, then everything will be fine and dandy, and just solves itself. The absolutely astronomical structural challenges that farming faces as an industry, would need reform that goes way beyond demanding higher wages, and demanding higher wages would only result in deepening those issues, making it even more ripe for big industries to exploit an already exploited industry.
    But that's the problem, socialists thinking they know everything and have obvious answers; not listening, not taking advice, literally just sticking their fingers in their ears and then ruining industries, if not entire economies, and then turn around telling us it was those darn rich people not being willing to be poorer than their workers to achieve equality.

    So no, go screw yourself, you are literally an anti-intellectual commie, that would ruin my background community, so that you can wave your little virtue signal flag of having morals; when reality is your actions are even more immoral than what you proclaim to be against. If you want to aid that industry, maybe try and listen to those who are from it, and who know that simplistic ideals like "just demand more wages" is so absolutely laughably stupid and destructive, that the exploitation that goes on would be preferable to your ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynep View Post
    Landless farmhands sort of (if you don't count proletariat), landed farmers not at all, at least here, not ever, including today, farmers are well off here. Anyway, isn't the cornerstone idea of leftism to eliminate these rungs, not enshrine them?
    Well it is the ultimate downfall of leftism, time and again. The incapability to actually make those changes, because they can't think beyond, just demand more wages. You can't just force people to accept that now farmhands are paid as much as a CEO now, no one will accept that.
    It is why I will likely forever stay a conservative; we might be more cruel and more willing to offer people on the alter of capitalism, but at least we also have the capability to progress our society on the basis of industries, lifting all of society up in combination, not ruining industries, making things even worse, on the basis of "morality".
    Formerly Howeller, lost my account.

  20. #180
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howel View Post
    Well it is the ultimate downfall of leftism, time and again. The incapability to actually make those changes, because they can't think beyond, just demand more wages. You can't just force people to accept that now farmhands are paid as much as a CEO now, no one will accept that.
    It is why I will likely forever stay a conservative; we might be more cruel and more willing to offer people on the alter of capitalism, but at least we also have the capability to progress our society on the basis of industries, lifting all of society up in combination, not ruining industries, making things even worse, on the basis of "morality".
    Lol, citation fucking needed. There's a famine going on in Yemen while capitalists in Michigan are dumping potatoes into a giant hole in the ground.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

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