Pelagos is horrifying, not empowering

[kappalol]

Yes, but with gender dysphoria specifically, people tend to have the science behind it mixed up, especially if they tend toward more conservative views on medical and psychiatric science. 'Being trans' isn't the disorder, it's the treatment. Might not seem like an important distinction to you and I, but it's a big deal to the trans person who keeps being told they're mentally ill when they're pursuing the recommended treatment as put forth by the most comprehensive psychiatric medical journals on the planet after exhaustive research using the most up-to-date methods and theory, for pursuing that treatment. It would be like constantly shitting on someone with suicidal depression for seeking treatment which includes SSRI medication.

Yes they need psychiatric help.

Infracted.

[Dalinos]

1 small thing about "Transphobia" that I could never understand. A "Phobia" is defined as an illogical fear. Like Arachnophobia, where people are mortally scared of spiders, even though they can squish them and murder them with the sole of their shoe. Or Claustrophobia, a fear of closed spaces, when you can simply walk out of that closed space (elevator, narrow staircase w/e).

I mean, I'm a Greek. These words came from my language, the word "phobia" is literally a ripoff of the word "φοβία", and we even have the Ancient Greek God of Fear, "Phobos", or Φόβος.

1 thing I can say for sure is people are not AFRAID of trans people. Disgusted? Sure. Ignorant? Sure. Are they rude/prejudiced? Sure. Stupid? Sure. But they are not afraid. Not at all.

[Timester]

My question is why is this thread is still open? It brings nothing to the table and "political drama" is not part of the lore board.

[ClassicPeon]

Literally no one is demanding literally anything. You're all just getting butt hurt that we exist, it's literally that simple.

Idgaf if they include trans people or not. Honestly I'd rather they hadn't, because the amount of transphobia that's going to filter into the game I use to escape transphobia is going to be awful.

Noone cares that trans people exist. Like literally. Good for you - we dont care.

We just dont want all of this lgbt nonsense thats going on in the US shoved down our throats.

People can be whatever they want to be, and if they start acting crazy i reserve my right not to interact with them.

If a person thinks they have some sort of right to change the pronounce used towards them i'm going to think they are crazy. I dont want that kind of thinking to be normalized in wow. I dont want my kids to be confused by the thoughts of crazy people

Infracted.

[Super Dickmann]

@Bennett

So true. How do I donate to your Patreon for further wisdom?

[Sondrelk]

1 small thing about "Transphobia" that I could never understand. A "Phobia" is defined as an illogical fear. Like Arachnophobia, where people are mortally scared of spiders, even though they can squish them and murder them with the sole of their shoe. Or Claustrophobia, a fear of closed spaces, when you can simply walk out of that closed space (elevator, narrow staircase w/e).

I mean, I'm a Greek. These words came from my language, the word "phobia" is literally a ripoff of the word "φοβία", and we even have the Ancient Greek God of Fear, "Phobos", or Φόβος.

1 thing I can say for sure is people are not AFRAID of trans people. Disgusted? Sure. Ignorant? Sure. Are they rude/prejudiced? Sure. Stupid? Sure. But they are not afraid. Not at all.

In cases like these Phobia is understood to mean irrational aversion, as opposed to full-on panic.
It would still be applicable to say someone had Arachnophobia if they got squeamish being in the same room as a tarantula, despite that person not being specifically afraid.
In the same way when someone is Transphobic, or Homophobic or anything similar to that we undersand it as them having an irrational aversion to those people, despite them not specifically being afraid.

Or of course you could argue that having an aversion to them means being afraid.
I have panic attacks whenever I jump into deep water, but just because I outwardly love the ocean view and fresh air doesnt mean I could not have the label of Thalassophobic applied.

- - - Updated - - -

Noone cares that trans people exist. Like literally. Good for you - we dont care.

We just dont want all of this lgbt nonsense thats going on in the US shoved down our throats.

People can be whatever they want to be, and if they start acting crazy i reserve my right not to interact with them.

If a person thinks they have some sort of right to change the pronounced used towards them i'm going to think they are crazy. I dont want that kind of thinking to be normalized in wow. I dont want my kids to be confused by the thoughts of crazy people

Yet you seem to care immensely that they exist. You claim that you really don't care, but at the first sign of a trans person you throw your arms up and yell that everyone just needs to stop caring.

If you really didn't care then you shouldnt actually care whether this character is trans or not. It sounds obvious, but clearly it isnt.

[Quaade]

No one is shitting on trans people.. its about losing your identy when you get into the shadowlands... thats what kyrians do.

I dont like that.. but I wont be going Kyrians because of that.

Pelegos story i dont care about.. if he wants to be a little blue boy instead of a girl.. if that is possible and he wants to be some one else.. fine, but only if every one else can make that choice to.

Lucky for him he became a male like that.. if he had to do sll the surgeries..I am glad its about that and not about becoming IT and it would no longer refer to either of the 2 sexes because then I would have a problem with that tbh.

"its about losing your identy when you get into the shadowlands... thats what kyrians do.

I don't like that.. but I won't be going Kyrian because of that.

Pelegos story I don't care about.. if he wants to be a little blue boy instead of a girl.. if that is possible and he wants to be someone else.. fine, but only if everyone else can make that choice to.

Lucky for him he became a male like that.. if he had to do all the surgeries. I am glad it's about that and not about becoming IT and it would no longer refer to either of the 2 sexes because then I would have a problem with that tbh."

You took your mask off unintentionally there.

"But" is a subconscious rhetorical device that makes everything before it irrelevant, unless it's negative then we pay special attention to it. Consciously you say you're against it. Subconsciously you're for it, provided it fits your biases. It's like Kaitlyn Bennet that defends democracy on one hand and wishes that Trump would declare himself a king on the other.

You subconsciously use "boy" and "girl" instead of "man" and "woman." This is infantilising language and with the "boy" and "girl" label the one talked about is legally immature.

You use the term "IT" which dehumanises him and by proxy everyone who sees themselves as trans.

You say there are only two genders. If you had bothered to investigate, or had Biology B, you would know that gender is a social instruct, him/her/X/Y are labels, none of them are biological sexes.

And given that you conflate gender with sex and say there are only two if you had done any sort of research or investigation beyond your own bias you'd know that by chromosomes, which a lot of people with transphobic beliefs like to tout, there are at least five genders. XX and XY as we know, XXX and YYY that has hyper secondary gender characteristics and XXY, which is also known as Klinefelter's Syndrome which gives biological male with extreme feminine traits.

[Thage]

If a person thinks they have some sort of right to change the pronounce used towards them i'm going to think they are crazy. I dont want that kind of thinking to be normalized in wow. I dont want my kids to be confused by the thoughts of crazy people

Exhibit A, ladies and gentlemen, of what I mean when I talk about people who want to argue science without bothering to learn current theory.

Also, if you're worried about your kids learning things you don't like in video games, I have some bad news for you and highly recommend being vigilant about your child's online activities in general.

[ClassicPeon]

In cases like these Phobia is understood to mean irrational aversion, as opposed to full-on panic.
It would still be applicable to say someone had Arachnophobia if they got squeamish being in the same room as a tarantula, despite that person not being specifically afraid.
In the same way when someone is Transphobic, or Homophobic or anything similar to that we undersand it as them having an irrational aversion to those people, despite them not specifically being afraid.

Or of course you could argue that having an aversion to them means being afraid.
I have panic attacks whenever I jump into deep water, but just because I outwardly love the ocean view and fresh air doesnt mean I could not have the label of Thalassophobic applied.

- - - Updated - - -



Yet you seem to care immensely that they exist. You claim that you really don't care, but at the first sign of a trans person you throw your arms up and yell that everyone just needs to stop caring.

If you really didn't care then you shouldnt actually care whether this character is trans or not. It sounds obvious, but clearly it isnt.

I dont care if there is a trans person in the game. I dont think that person should have special treatement like wrong pronouns used for their sake though.

Think that was pretty clear from my post. I dont mind there being lesbians or gays or whatever. I do mind when people expect me to address them as a deer or something else just for the sake of them feeling special though.

[Thelyron]

As someone studying psychology, no - nearly always the best course of action is transitioning in some form, from hormone therapy to full on surgery. No credited psychiatrist/ doctor believes you can treat someone suffering from gender dysphoria without some measures being taken to bring them closer to their true identity. There is no magic pill or therapy that makes it go away

Please don't talk shit about things you know nothing about, it's very weird

- - - Updated - - -



Find me on onlyfans

Their true identity is the body they're born in. The thinking needs to be changed, not the body.

[ClassicPeon]

Exhibit A, ladies and gentlemen, of what I mean when I talk about people who want to argue science without bothering to learn current theory.

Also, if you're worried about your kids learning things you don't like in video games, I have some bad news for you and highly recommend being vigilant about your child's online activities in general.

I'd love for you to try and put some arguments against the bolded part of your text.
As for my kids they arent old enough to play video games yet, but they will one day(i expect). Its impossible to excersise 100% control over your kids. Thats why we have stuff like age restrictions on things, to help out parents. Issueing crazy warnings could potentially be a help in this case.

[Thage]

Their true identity is the body their born in. The thinking needs to be changed, not the body.

This has not been supported by scientific study for decades. As far back as the DSM-IV the recommended treatment for dysphoria has been transition therapy, not aversion therapy. In fact, aversion therapy has a much higher suicide rate associated with it than transition therapy.

Exhibit B, ladies and gentlemen. This is why textbooks should be phased out entirely in favor of guided online learning, especially for sciences and mathematics (it also escapes the risk of things like Common Core math being enforced and emphasizes math with real-world applicability).

[Niroshi]

Noone cares that trans people exist. Like literally. Good for you - we dont care.

We just dont want all of this lgbt nonsense thats going on in the US shoved down our throats.

People can be whatever they want to be, and if they start acting crazy i reserve my right not to interact with them.

If a person thinks they have some sort of right to change the pronounce used towards them i'm going to think they are crazy. I dont want that kind of thinking to be normalized in wow. I dont want my kids to be confused by the thoughts of crazy people

You know I never expected American ideas to be put into a game made by Americans. How could this have snuck up on us?

[Thage]

I'd love for you to try and put some arguments against the bolded part of your text.
As for my kids they arent old enough to play video games yet, but they will one day(i expect). Its impossible to excersise 100% control over your kids. Thats why we have stuff like age restrictions on things, to help out parents. Issueing crazy warnings could potentially be a help in this case.

You seem to be under the impression that trans people are 'crazy' for being trans. Modern scientific theory lists the disorder as the dysphoria experienced from a difference between internal and external expression with transitioning so external expression matches internal as the recommended treatment--in short, 'being trans' is the treatment, not the sickness.

[Dalinos]

In cases like these Phobia is understood to mean irrational aversion, as opposed to full-on panic.
It would still be applicable to say someone had Arachnophobia if they got squeamish being in the same room as a tarantula, despite that person not being specifically afraid.
In the same way when someone is Transphobic, or Homophobic or anything similar to that we undersand it as them having an irrational aversion to those people, despite them not specifically being afraid.

Or of course you could argue that having an aversion to them means being afraid.
I have panic attacks whenever I jump into deep water, but just because I outwardly love the ocean view and fresh air doesnt mean I could not have the label of Thalassophobic applied.

But...it's a wrong usage of the word. Fear does not mean "irrational aversion", it means fucking "fear". Squeemishness is not caused by fear, but by the biological signal of disgust (which is there to protect us from poisonous plants/animals so we don't murder ourselves while foraging/hunting for food). Fear is fear. Fear of heights, because if you fall you die. Fear of darkness, because predators that WTFPWN the basic Human exist, such as panthers, lions, wolves and others, and they lurk in darkness and hunt through the darkness. These are fears. Not wanting to interact with a specific subset of people is not fear. It's decision-making. Bad decision-making, one would argue, but decision-making nevertheless. Not fear.

Stop bastardising the words you stole from my language, pretty please? :P

[Sondrelk]

I dont care if there is a trans person in the game. I dont think that person should have special treatement like wrong pronouns used for their sake though.

Think that was pretty clear from my post. I dont mind there being lesbians or gays or whatever. I do mind when people expect me to address them as a deer or something else just for the sake of them feeling special though.

So in short, yur problem with this minor character is that in an easily disregarded piece of quest fluff, we learn that Pelagos used to be a biological female in life, but when dead decided to become a male, changed his body and asks that people call him by the pronoun that fits his outward appearance.

Had noone mentioned this I sincerely doubt that you would have even noticed that this character is trans.


Again, you seem obsessively preoccupied with claiming that you do not actually care. And yet you insist on claiming that our passive indifference on a piece of quest fluff is us spearheading some LGBT agenda.
WHat do you expect us to do? Most of us here already mentioned we do not actually find it to be more than an amusing aside? Do you simply just want us to leave the discussion so the people who really, really do not care like you can continue to insist you simply are so indifferent to the change that you insist it is reversed?

I mean honestly.

[Niroshi]

But...it's a wrong usage of the word. Fear does not mean "irrational aversion", it means fucking "fear". Squeemishness is not caused by fear, but by the biological signal of disgust (which is there to protect us from poisonous plants/animals so we don't murder ourselves while foraging/hunting for food). Fear is fear. Fear of heights, because if you fall you die. Fear of darkness, because predators that WTFPWN the basic Human exist, such as panthers, lions, wolves and others, and they lurk in darkness and hunt through the darkness. These are fears. Not wanting to interact with a specific subset of people is not fear. It's decision-making. Bad decision-making, one would argue, but decision-making nevertheless. Not fear.

Not speaking to the root word, but in English phobia covers aversion as well. It isn't strictly fear.

[ClassicPeon]

You seem to be under the impression that trans people are 'crazy' for being trans. Modern scientific theory lists the disorder as the dysphoria experienced from a difference between internal and external expression with transitioning so external expression matches internal as the recommended treatment--in short, 'being trans' is the treatment, not the sickness.

Yeah no. You need to go back and read it again then because thats not at all what i said.
When you are able to comprehend a simple post feel free to return to me and make up some arguments again. Otherwise i'l accept your silence as an apology

[Thage]

But...it's a wrong usage of the word. Fear does not mean "irrational aversion", it means fucking "fear". Squeemishness is not caused by fear, but by the biological signal of disgust (which is there to protect us from poisonous plants/animals so we don't murder ourselves while foraging/hunting for food). Fear is fear. Fear of heights, because if you fall you die. Fear of darkness, because predators that WTFPWN the basic Human exist, such as panthers, lions, wolves and others, and they lurk in darkness and hunt through the darkness. These are fears. Not wanting to interact with a specific subset of people is not fear. It's decision-making. Bad decision-making, one would argue, but decision-making nevertheless. Not fear.

'Phobia' is one of those words that grew beyond its linguistic roots. It covers irrational aversions as well as fears and hatreds, with the irrational part being the emphasis.

[Raetary]

1 small thing about "Transphobia" that I could never understand. A "Phobia" is defined as an illogical fear. Like Arachnophobia, where people are mortally scared of spiders, even though they can squish them and murder them with the sole of their shoe. Or Claustrophobia, a fear of closed spaces, when you can simply walk out of that closed space (elevator, narrow staircase w/e).

I mean, I'm a Greek. These words came from my language, the word "phobia" is literally a ripoff of the word "φοβία", and we even have the Ancient Greek God of Fear, "Phobos", or Φόβος.

1 thing I can say for sure is people are not AFRAID of trans people. Disgusted? Sure. Ignorant? Sure. Are they rude/prejudiced? Sure. Stupid? Sure. But they are not afraid. Not at all.

The suffix -phobia, is used to describe strong feelings of aversion to something, not just fears.
Transphobia means a person dislikes the idea of trans people, they feel disgust/hatred/repulsion towards them.

It however also can mean fear, TERF arguments for example are generally littered with a fear of trans women.