Pelagos is horrifying, not empowering

[ClassicPeon]

So in short, yur problem with this minor character is that in an easily disregarded piece of quest fluff, we learn that Pelagos used to be a biological female in life, but when dead decided to become a male, changed his body and asks that people call him by the pronoun that fits his outward appearance.

Had noone mentioned this I sincerely doubt that you would have even noticed that this character is trans.


Again, you seem obsessively preoccupied with claiming that you do not actually care. And yet you insist on claiming that our passive indifference on a piece of quest fluff is us spearheading some LGBT agenda.
WHat do you expect us to do? Most of us here already mentioned we do not actually find it to be more than an amusing aside? Do you simply just want us to leave the discussion so the people who really, really do not care like you can continue to insist you simply are so indifferent to the change that you insist it is reversed?

I mean honestly.

Who said i had a problem with this minor character again?

I was responding to a persons post, not to the introduction of this character.

You seem obsessively preoccupied with finding something to take offence at in peoples posts.

[Raetary]

.

Their true identity is the body they're born in. The thinking needs to be changed, not the body.

Too bad science disagrees with you.

[Jamie081]

I'm not sure I understand this, are Blizzard pushing trans into WoW? When GW2 did that it was very immersion breaking and very real world feeling, sounds like the SJW cancer has crept into WoW based on Blizzards preface post.

Is nothing sacred anymore? What's next, trump hate quests?

Who the fuck plays GW2 for immersion? Give me a break. It’s one of the least immersive MMOs out there.

[Thage]

Yeah no. You need to go back and read it again then because thats not at all what i said.
When you are able to comprehend a simple post feel free to return to me and make up some arguments again. Otherwise i'l accept your silence as an apology

You said, and I quote, "If a person thinks they have some sort of right to change the pronounce used towards them i'm going to think they are crazy. I dont want that kind of thinking to be normalized in wow." This strongly suggests you are either unaware of, or willingly ignore, the advancements in scientific study on sex, gender, and the brain's affect on both that have been made in the last 30 years. Ergo, I felt, and continue to feel, comfortable in insinuating, and outright saying, you need to do your research and catch up to modern theory before trying to make statements about what is and isn't 'crazy' versus manning up and acknowledging you just aren't comfortable with certain things in life and stop trying to use bad science as a shield for being uncomfortable.

You are allowed to be uncomfortable. Own it.

[ClassicPeon]

Not speaking to the root word, but in English phobia covers aversion as well. It isn't strictly fear.

The English word doesnt actually cover aversion.

But it does cover hate - which, i guess, could be used against some peoples opinions on trans people.

https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionari...english/phobia

[Sondrelk]

But...it's a wrong usage of the word. Fear does not mean "irrational aversion", it means fucking "fear". Squeemishness is not caused by fear, but by the biological signal of disgust (which is there to protect us from poisonous plants/animals so we don't murder ourselves while foraging/hunting for food). Fear is fear. Fear of heights, because if you fall you die. Fear of darkness, because predators that WTFPWN the basic Human exist, such as panthers, lions, wolves and others, and they lurk in darkness and hunt through the darkness. These are fears. Not wanting to interact with a specific subset of people is not fear. It's decision-making. Bad decision-making, one would argue, but decision-making nevertheless. Not fear.

Stop bastardising the words you stole from my language, pretty please?

Bastardizing words stolen from other languages is exactly how languages are made, and the study of which is linguistics.
Yes, it is wrong to say that Transphobia means slight aversion to, when it literally means irrational fear. But it is also completely wrong to say that having telekinetic abilities means being able to move stuff with your mind when it literally meansw interracting with something from afar, like say, throwing a rock at it.

This is hardly the first time something like this happens. Blood is thicker than water meaning that family matters is literally a direct contradiction of the origianl phrase, "Blood of the covenant is thicker than water of the womb" which is about how sworn brothers are more important than family.

Yes, it is annoying that your knowledge of greek means that you can spot the inherent faults in common phrases, but that is just what it means for a language to evolve.
I cannot for instance imagine that many computers were happy when their important profession was coopted to describe an unreliable piece of machinery.


Also, phobia simply rolls off the tongue better than the alternatives.

[ClassicPeon]

You said, and I quote, "If a person thinks they have some sort of right to change the pronounce used towards them i'm going to think they are crazy. I dont want that kind of thinking to be normalized in wow." This strongly suggests you are either unaware of, or willingly ignore, the advancements in scientific study on sex, gender, and the brain's affect on both that have been made in the last 30 years. Ergo, I felt, and continue to feel, comfortable in insinuating, and outright saying, you need to do your research and catch up to modern theory before trying to make statements about what is and isn't 'crazy' versus manning up and acknowledging you just aren't comfortable with certain things in life and stop trying to use bad science as a shield for being uncomfortable.

You are allowed to be uncomfortable. Own it.

No it doesnt.

I literally said if a person is trans - thats fine. I went on to explain that the crazy part is if people think they have a right to change the actual language we use solely because they want to feel special - thats crazy.

I am of the belief that there are only two genders - but i accept that people feel differently. I dont accept or even respect people who think they have the right to change the language to suit themselves.

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Local crazy person calls other people crazy for believing in science

Real question - don't you want your kids to be good people one day? You don't want them to be bigots right? You should be happy they'll be exposed to these things

Feel free to argue with me Otherwise this is just slander.

Real question - don't you want your kids to be good people one day? You don't want them to be bigots right? You should be happy they'll be exposed to these things

My kids are already good people. I dont impose my ideologies on them but i do try to teach them right from wrong. Treat people with respect and such. Dont believe everything you hear. If people try to force ideologies on you(such as changing language to make them feel special) be critical towards it.

[Thage]

No it doesnt.

I literally said if a person is trans - thats fine. I went on to explain that the crazy part is if people think they have a right to change the actual language we use solely because they want to feel special - thats crazy.

I am of the belief that there are only two genders - but i accept that people feel differently. I dont accept or even respect people who think they have the right to change the language to suit themselves.

Right so there are two parts here where you are factually wrong. Gender and sex are divergent concepts that happen to have crossover. Gender is a mental construct, sex is a physical state of being--and even then it is influenced by chromosomes, and many divergent sexes like XXX, YYY, and XXY exist. The bit about sex is not belief, it is recorded medical fact. Gender being largely influenced by mental factors has come to acceptance as the current theory due to decades of neurological research almost unanimously pointing in this direction. Again, this is not belief, this is recorded medical fact.

Furthermore, if someone is undergoing transition therapy and seeks to be addressed by the proper pronouns, this isn't them wanting to feel 'special.' This is them wanting recognition for who they are. If I decided to call you Jeffrey all the time but your name was Steven, it would be a very clear indicator I don't care about you, and you would rightly call me an asshole for it. This does not make you crazy for wanting me to call you Steven just because you were born Jeffrey and had your name legally changed.

So yes, you need to catch up with modern theory and get out of 1995.

[ClassicPeon]

"If a person thinks they have some sort of right to change the pronounce used towards them i'm going to think they are crazy"

Imagine saying this then crying slander when someone challenges you

What's it like to be both morally bereft and a coward?

I made an argument for my case - i think its crazy to think you can force people to think like you do and to act on that behalf. You go full ad hominem on me without any arguments.

Is this kindergarden=?

[kappalol]

Another striking example of how you know exactly 0 about anything scientific

Don't need to know everything about science to know that the most suicidal minority of people in the world is crazy to begin with.

[Sondrelk]

No it doesnt.

I literally said if a person is trans - thats fine. I went on to explain that the crazy part is if people think they have a right to change the actual language we use solely because they want to feel special - thats crazy.

I am of the belief that there are only two genders - but i accept that people feel differently. I dont accept or even respect people who think they have the right to change the language to suit themselves.

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Feel free to argue with me Otherwise this is just slander.

In common parlance we assume female pronouns to describe a person of the female sex. Similarly male pronouns describe someone of the male sex.
Pelagos was in life a person of the female sex. But in death, and given the option decided to change their outward appearance in a way that conforms with his internal thoughts, and now has people call him by male pronouns, as befitting his outward male gender.

Noone is asking that we call him a deer, or that we always refer to him as 2 people. He changed his outward gender when given the chance, and now wishes to be called by the gender that befits him.

Nothing about this is wrong at all. In Bastion Pelagos is completely of the male gender when we see him, calling him female is what would be wrong in that case by your line of thougt.

[ClassicPeon]

Right so there are two parts here where you are factually wrong. Gender and sex are divergent concepts that happen to have crossover. Gender is a mental construct, sex is a physical state of being--and even then it is influenced by chromosomes, and many divergent sexes like XXX, YYY, and XXY exist. The bit about sex is not belief, it is recorded medical fact. Gender being largely influenced by mental factors has come to acceptance as the current theory due to decades of neurological research almost unanimously pointing in this direction. Again, this is not belief, this is recorded medical fact.

Furthermore, if someone is undergoing transition therapy and seeks to be addressed by the proper pronouns, this isn't them wanting to feel 'special.' This is them wanting recognition for who they are. If I decided to call you Jeffrey all the time but your name was Steven, it would be a very clear indicator I don't care about you, and you would rightly call me an asshole for it. This does not make you crazy for wanting me to call you Steven just because you were born Jeffrey and had your name legally changed.

So yes, you need to catch up with modern theory and get out of 1995.

Thank you for writing a constructive post that i can respond to. I'l do my best to address your points.

Gender and sex are divergent concepts that happen to have crossover. Gender is a mental construct, sex is a physical state of being--and even then it is influenced by chromosomes, and many divergent sexes like XXX, YYY, and XXY exist. The bit about sex is not belief, it is recorded medical fact. Gender being largely influenced by mental factors has come to acceptance as the current theory due to decades of neurological research almost unanimously pointing in this direction. Again, this is not belief, this is recorded medical fact.

I 100% accept this. I'm not saying people dont have a right to feel the way they do. Some people think there are 42 genders. Some people think there are unlimited amount of genders. I think there are 2. I dont judge people who dont fall under my belief.

Furthermore, if someone is undergoing transition therapy and seeks to be addressed by the proper pronouns, this isn't them wanting to feel 'special.' This is them wanting recognition for who they are. If I decided to call you Jeffrey all the time but your name was Steven, it would be a very clear indicator I don't care about you, and you would rightly call me an asshole for it. This does not make you crazy for wanting me to call you Steven just because you were born Jeffrey and had your name legally changed.

If someone transitions from a man to a women i'l call them her or she. No problem. Those arent new words. Noone has a right to invent new words and force them upon other people though. Thats the part i think is crazy. Not being or feeling different. Not transitioning to something else. Thinking you have the right to impose how other people speak though. Thats different.

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In common parlance we assume female pronouns to describe a person of the female sex. Similarly male pronouns describe someone of the male sex.
Pelagos was in life a person of the female sex. But in death, and given the option decided to change their outward appearance in a way that conforms with his internal thoughts, and now has people call him by male pronouns, as befitting his outward male gender.

Noone is asking that we call him a deer, or that we always refer to him as 2 people. He changed his outward gender when given the chance, and now wishes to be called by the gender that befits him.

Nothing about this is wrong at all. In Bastion Pelagos is completely of the male gender when we see him, calling him female is what would be wrong in that case by your line of thougt.

You keep going back to thinking i have a problem with this guy - and its starting to get weird. I've never had a problem with him being whatever he feels like being.

Not sure what i can do to make you understand that.

[Sondrelk]

I made an argument for my case - i think its crazy to think you can force people to think like you do and to act on that behalf. You go full ad hominem on me without any arguments.

Is this kindergarden=?

We also made an arguement. We used our arguments to disprove yours, then further argued that your insistence on not accepting the facts make your other more rational arguments feel faulty, and on shaky ground.

[Dalinos]

The suffix -phobia, is used to describe strong feelings of aversion to something, not just fears.
Transphobia means a person dislikes the idea of trans people, they feel disgust/hatred/repulsion towards them.

It however also can mean fear, TERF arguments for example are generally littered with a fear of trans women.

But...aren't they free in their power as a human being who owns that sanctity of life (his own life) to be disgusted/repulsed/feel hatred for anything they want?

I mean, I find cockroaches disgusting, I don't keep them as pets and I murder them any chance I find. Am I right in doing so? Probably not. I also don't like clubs (got sick of em after 3 yrs of hardcore clubbing), so now I avoid them like the plague. I'd rather chill in a pub or bar. I also steer away from hardcore football fans, but like, the real hardcore guys, the ones that are in firms and go looking for a fight or to vandalise the souvenir shops of the opposing teams.

The point here is, people are allowed to avoid any subset of people they want for any fucking reason they want, whether it be wrong or right, because that's what freedom is. You do w/e you want as long as it doesn't harm someone else. I'm allowed to avoid rabid hooligans, I'm allowed to murder cockroaches, stripping them of their lives and I'm allowed to do w/e I want, as long as its legal.

Therefore, since both "Transphobia" and "Homophobia" refer to feeling disgusted/hatred/repulsion towards those 2 subsets of people, where's the problem? Some people hate lawyers with a passion, others (like me) don't want to interact with hardcore football hooligans, others don't want to interact with the LGBT community.

SO. FUCKING. WHAT. Where's the problem? Why is the aversion of the LGBT community by some parts of the populace baptised a "phobia" when aversion of hooligans, criminals, drug addicts or homeless people doesn't have its own phobia? They're either all "phobias" (with the modern definition), or none of em are. I'm genuinely interested in seeing a response to this argument.

[ClassicPeon]

No one forcing you to think like them, you just have to have common courtesy and treat everyone with respect they afford you - I'm sure you wouldn't like it if I inisisted on calling you a woman because I felt that's what you were right? So why would it be okay for you to do the same to a trans person?

If someone went through a transition from male to female i'd call the person her/she if thats what she desired. I wouldnt call them they/them/it/deer or whatever though.

[Sondrelk]

You keep going back to thinking i have a problem with this guy - and its starting to get weird. I've never had a problem with him being whatever he feels like being.

Not sure what i can do to make you understand that.

Very well then, what is the problem?

[ClassicPeon]

We also made an arguement. We used our arguments to disprove yours, then further argued that your insistence on not accepting the facts make your other more rational arguments feel faulty, and on shaky ground.

Who is we? I'm not adressing you in that post - simply the person i'm responding to and his arguments. You arent a hivemind and i think it shows respect to accept that each individual has a their own arguments.

You are getting weird :/

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Very well then, what is the problem?

I dont know? Whats the problem? You adressed me? So whats the problem? LOL

[Thage]

SO. FUCKING. WHAT. Where's the problem? Why is the aversion of the LGBT community by some parts of the populace baptised a "phobia" when aversion of hooligans, criminals, drug addicts or homeless people doesn't have its own phobia? They're either all "phobias" (with the modern definition), or none of em are. I'm genuinely interested in seeing a response to this argument.

Technically-speaking, there are phobias associated with almost any irrational fear, up to and including lawyers, the homeless, and even the sound of rain hitting the window, with proper nomenclature and treatment options available to help address those phobias. Psychiatric study has come far in recent decades now that the US government isn't actively waging war on mental healthcare like it did under Nixon and the public stigma is being slowly broken.

[ClassicPeon]

Technically-speaking, there are phobias associated with almost any irrational fear, up to and including lawyers, the homeless, and even the sound of rain hitting the window, with proper nomenclature and treatment options available to help address those phobias. Psychiatric study has come far in recent decades now that the US government isn't actively waging war on mental healthcare like it did under Nixon and the public stigma is being slowly broken.

It being an ism would probably be more fitting then calling it a phobia though.

Transism?

[Sondrelk]

But...aren't they free in their power as a human being who owns that sanctity of life (his own life) to be disgusted/repulsed/feel hatred for anything they want?

I mean, I find cockroaches disgusting, I don't keep them as pets and I murder them any chance I find. Am I right in doing so? Probably not. I also don't like clubs (got sick of em after 3 yrs of hardcore clubbing), so now I avoid them like the plague. I'd rather chill in a pub or bar. I also steer away from hardcore football fans, but like, the real hardcore guys, the ones that are in firms and go looking for a fight or to vandalise the souvenir shops of the opposing teams.

The point here is, people are allowed to avoid any subset of people they want for any fucking reason they want, whether it be wrong or right, because that's what freedom is. You do w/e you want as long as it doesn't harm someone else. I'm allowed to avoid rabid hooligans, I'm allowed to murder cockroaches, stripping them of their lives and I'm allowed to do w/e I want, as long as its legal.

Therefore, since both "Transphobia" and "Homophobia" refer to feeling disgusted/hatred/repulsion towards those 2 subsets of people, where's the problem? Some people hate lawyers with a passion, others (like me) don't want to interact with hardcore football hooligans, others don't want to interact with the LGBT community.

SO. FUCKING. WHAT. Where's the problem? Why is the aversion of the LGBT community by some parts of the populace baptised a "phobia" when aversion of hooligans, criminals, drug addicts or homeless people doesn't have its own phobia? They're either all "phobias" (with the modern definition), or none of em are. I'm genuinely interested in seeing a response to this argument.

They are allowed that. But similarly other people are free to find your thoughts on the matter something they disapprove of. And when enouh people agree that said thoughts are not reasonable to have in conversation with others we can say that a shift has happened in society. Similarly to when it no longer became acceptable to have loud outspoken beliefs on the flogging of slaves as an acceptable form of conduct. Or when announcing that you prefer to shit behind the curtains became a preeminent social faux-pas.

Free speech does not just mean that you can say whatever without consequence, because it is similarly the prerogative of others to use their own free spech to condemn yours.