Why is Taurajo seen as unjustified?

[Raisei]

As to your latter point, there's something to be said that Shaw saw releasing Saurfang from the position of subverting the Horde with division at a time where it couldn't afford it. While we have seen Anduin being subversive before - like with mind controlling those dudes to escape, he's never been malicious or disingenuous and I don't view it in his character. It's genuinely a shame that this didn't get brought up in story because there is actually a good practical ground for loosing Saurfang in order to destabilize the Horde, but the purely moralistic lens the narrative takes robs the Alliance of conflict and of different motivations for the same action. You could have Halford and Shaw discuss it, calling back to their chat on their different views of war.

The worst part is that apparently there is some rumor going around Stormwind, that says Anduin let Saurfang go and people exclaim how they don't believe it. If it gets confirmed as fact somehow Anduins reputation will be damaged immensely.... Where is that idiot spymaster controlling the narrative? Spread the "rumor" that Anduin tricked the Orc into rebellion to weaken the Horde. It doesn't have to be true, you just have to make people believe it is.
Unfortunately I also do not see it in his character, but we have seen him turn quite a bit more mature in the course of BFA. When he shouted at Genn to shut up or when he simply went up to Wrathion and ... punched a dragon in the face..., only slightly ruined by him later apologizing for it (to us not to Wrathion).
His father told him that "peace is the noblest aspiration, but sometimes you need to fight for it", but we know Anduin is not a fighter. No matter how shiny and bulky his armor is. He is a priest, his way of "fighting" are words (of Power and Shadow... I'll get my coat) so maybe he is employing manipulations as a way to peace. I would really like that.

[Specialka]

I do not understand why ppl can't stand fictional characters rooting for peace ? I mean war does not bring anything. It only moves riches from one side to another. We could argue it brings innovation, sure. But long-lasting prosperity and welfare comes only from peace.

If you want an universe where ppl are bad because reasons, there is still Star Wars for that.

[Syegfryed]

Well, it is stupid to challenge someone more powerful than you head to head. Live to fight another day ? Stop spouting nonsense.

Baine could have ripped Sylvanas in half with his barehands, even before she gain Jailer power shenanigans

No, that is where you are wrong. Your words are meaningless. Baine IS and REMAINS chief of the Tauren, what he says goes. You can make your headcanon where everything that ever happened in Baine's fault, where he did not help save the Horde from the Psycho Banshee you were following, but that is just your fantasy.

You can jus construct your argumment with "well he is leader and you are not" not all the characters say are right or true just because he said it

characters can lie, be wrong and etc, Baine saying Taurujo was a valid trget was simple to withewash the attack and remove guilty from the alliance

I am not in the habit of using the exact opposite words of what I want to say, unless I am sarcastic. Which I was not. The fact that you cannot see how nuking a city is worse then destroying a camp consisting of three (!!!) buildings only helps to question your judgement.

so your judgment is that is better to destroy a camp of civilains, who were never a threat to anyone in the alliance, and never raised a finger against then than a city who was actually an alliance bastion in the continent who constant attacked the horde and send reinforcements to other places just because the camp is smaller??

you entire judgement here is not about reasons, about what they done, about the danger they brought, about their actions or about their actions in the war, but your judgement is based around size, all right, that explains a lot of you

You have been trying to spin this tale for quite some time. The reality is that Taurajo was a justified military target as admitted by the relevant authority. Again you may believe in your headcannon, where Baine's word does not count for the Tauren, but you will find it hard to convince people that your fantasy supercedes the canon lore.

you can try to convince that so you as an alliance knight sleep well at night, but we all know damn well that brutalizing a small camp of civilians who never went against the Alliance, who were invading their territory will never be a justified military target., cause it was not a militar place/area/base/camp

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This argument has been tried against @Syegfryed in another threat. It doesn't work. When confronted with arguments that counter his nonesense he just ignores them and keep going "lalalalala Baine is a coward lalalalala". He is one of those that you cannot convince with logic, his reality is very different from ours.

you can try to prove how Sylvanas is way more stronger than Baine since she burn down teldrassil.

Cause if she was, it make no sense to lose Undercity with that kind of power

Even with that she was not able to match all Saurfang strikes, yep Baine had a chance if he had balls, but sure go on like how vast and superior your "logic arguments" are

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No, he just tries to stop the Horde when it goes too far. He could not stop the burning of Teldrassil, he could at least save a single person in the form of Derek.

cause save the number of pointless dead in the war was not rly something important to him, save Jaina brother? hell yes

[Doffen]

- Burning of Taurajo is the biggest war crime Azeroth faced

Funny because its true. The most written sentence in the Lore section when faced with what bad the Horde as done:

"B-b-but what about Camp Taurajo??"


Hey Minikin, loving it

[Vaedan]

Funny because its true. The most written sentence in the Lore section when faced with what bad the Horde as done:

"B-b-but what about Camp Taurajo??"


Hey Minikin, loving it

Well, the most abhorent thing about Taurajo is actually not Alliance destroying it, but Baine's reaction to the destruction of camp used by his people for years and death of his people.

So, you Horde guys should thank those criminal mercenaries for exposing Baine as of cata.

[Mehrunes]

This thread totally goes in line with the lofty ideals of lack of faction bias, impartiality and "I play both factions equally because that's the only sensible thing to do".

That's the problem with all the peace out hippy characters in Warcraft, they're held up as Correct and Righteous, when they effectively throw their own people under the bus and should be executed as traitors. In Baine's case, I'd agree to him being a traitor to the Tauren as you've argued in this post. Still ok with him betraying the True Horde and NuScourge though.

The message of Warfract is that the bus is good because it protects you from rain and shit when you're thrown under it. Someone still didn't get the "lesson of Pandaria", so I guess we'll get a third faction war expansion down the line.

[Raisei]

Baine could have ripped Sylvanas in half with his barehands, even before she gain Jailer power shenanigans

Suuuuure. Not like she stopped a strike with a giant axe of a giant orc with a dagger and one hand and soloed an army of the dead with the Lich King on top. She is obviously weak.

You can jus construct your argumment with "well he is leader and you are not" not all the characters say are right or true just because he said it

characters can lie, be wrong and etc, Baine saying Taurujo was a valid trget was simple to withewash the attack and remove guilty from the alliance

In fact I can. It is not so much that he is right or wrong about it, but that he in his position as Chieftain decided it was so. The Tauren that went against his decision commited treason. If they did not like his decision then their options by the Horde's own rules, that you keep repeating for us, were very simple:

1) Suck it up
2) Challenge him

They did neither and went behind his back for revenge.

By the standards you yourself are applying to Baine they are cowards and they are wrong about what they wanted to do. Challenging Baine was the only rightful way of doing things, but they didn't because they were cowards. Did I mention they were cowards?

And thus your own logic breaks your argument.

so your judgment is that is better to destroy a camp of civilains, who were never a threat to anyone in the alliance, and never raised a finger against then than a city who was actually an alliance bastion in the continent who constant attacked the horde and send reinforcements to other places just because the camp is smaller??

1) That Taurajo is not a threat is purely your fiction. They train warriors there that are send out to kill Alliance members. I know this because Alliance warrior trainers send us out to kill Horde members. Pretty simple really.
2) Again, the Horde began that war by attacking Ashenvale. Theramore became a threat because of that. It has existed for years without so much as a skirmish, it was even endorsed by Thrall. You can't cry about being threatened when you are the agressor in a conflict.
3) But yes, even by pure scale it is vastly better to have a camp of 3 mudhuts with maybe 20 inhabitants dead then a city with hundreds nuked. Garrosh capturing and murdering the refugees is just the cherry on top.

you can try to prove how Sylvanas is way more stronger than Baine since she burn down teldrassil.

Cause if she was, it make no sense to lose Undercity with that kind of power

Even with that she was not able to match all Saurfang strikes, yep Baine had a chance if he had balls, but sure go on like how vast and superior your "logic arguments" are

This... makes no sense whatsoever, you are drawing conclusions from completely unconnected things.

How does burning a tree with catapults have anything to do with her personal strength? How does her planned destruction of the Undercity have anything to do with it?
She was NOT able to match Saurfangs strikes? What? Were you drunk when you watched the cinematic or are you now? She easily blocked every last one of it, the only hit she takes is when he surprises her by splitting Shalamayne and even that was merely a scratch. She literally danced around the Orc and slashed him 10 times before he could even react. She could have taken Saurfang and Baine together and still won.

I don't have to prove anything when it is clearly shown. It is not my job to make you accept reality.

[Mehrunes]

Well, it is stupid to challenge someone more powerful than you head to head. Live to fight another day ? Stop spouting nonsense.

What actual fighting against Sylvanas did he do though? Cowering behind Saurfang and Anduin don't exactly constitute fighting.

@Raisei

Please, don't embarass yourself, we all know you don't actually believe that Baine saying something in-story constitutes that being objective reality out of story because the same strand of logic would lead you to accept that Sylvanas alone was responsible for everything in the Fourth War or that Daelin and Arthas were morally equivalent to what the Horde has done, since those are the positions of the Alliance sovereign. Get back to admitting you're pushing Baine solely out of contrarianism because he's loathed by virtually all Horde players interested in the story and because of his pro-Alliance positions - that's defensible territory. No one who hasn't taken a hit on the head would ever endorse Baine's positions were they to be transposed on another party, and we know this because of how the people defending him rightly view his Alliance equivalents.

Since when are you such a party pooper?

[Doffen]

The message of Warfract is that the bus is good because it protects you from rain and shit when you're thrown under it. Someone still didn't get the "lesson of Pandaria", so I guess we'll get a third faction war expansion down the line.

That might be the day I quit WoW for good. Tyrande is mad and Talanji is furious so I guess it's the Pre vs Post Well of Eternity Troll Wars(TWPvP) in 10.0 or something.

Must be good.

[Mehrunes]

Well, he never said that Arthas's crimes were on the Alliance. He said that the ghost of the past haunted them as well. Quite a nuance.

Yeah, let's pretend the sentence he said before didn't happen. You know, the one where he said how the Horde has no exclusive claim to regrets, clearly indicating that the things he mentioned afterwards (i.e. Daelin and Arthas) are in his mind the Alliance's claim to regrets. That's totes an honest line of argumentation.

[yamix]

I feel like there's an important difference in laying siege and "formally" declaring you're going to be burning the place down and just doing it without warning and catching civilians who would have evacuated in the process.

My understanding is that Taurajo was the latter. I don't care what weapon was used, I do kind of mind killing civilians without warning.

[Specialka]

Yeah, let's pretend the sentence he said before didn't happen. You know, the one where he said how the Horde has no exclusive claim to regrets, clearly indicating that the things he mentioned afterwards (i.e. Daelin and Arthas) are in his mind the Alliance's claim to regrets. That's totes an honest line of argumentation.

So your point is ? Daelin AND Arthas were from the Alliance when their shit went south. But then what ?

Daelin wanted revenge and exterminate the orcs. Well, when we see what the Horde did afterwards, maybe, Jaina should have let him, but when it happened she was right to try to stop him.

And Arthas went mad and did terrible things.

But again was it Alliance doing those things or 2 ppl doing bad things ? While the first Horde paved a road with bones and skull from children and women and raided another world with the goal to enslave all its inhabitants.

[Super Dickmann]

--- snip ---

@Specialka

You think you're arguing with Mehrunes, but in actuality you're arguing with your own earlier point - there is no equivalence, but the in-story characters act as if there is, that's the whole point and why the 'Baine says so' argument is as weak as it is.

[Mehrunes]

So your point is ? Daelin AND Arthas were from the Alliance when their shit went south. But then what ?

Daelin wanted revenge and exterminate the orcs. Well, when we see what the Horde did afterwards, maybe, Jaina should have let him, but when it happened she was right to try to stop him.

And Arthas went mad and did terrible things.

But again was it Alliance doing those things or 2 ppl doing bad things ? While the first Horde paved a road with bones and skull from children and women and raided another world with the goal to enslave all its inhabitants.

Whether it was Alliance doing those things or two people doing bad things is completely inconsequential to what is Anduin's stance on the issue. That, as @Super Dickmann already pointed out, was the point, meaning that you're moving the goalposts here. Well, that and the part of how you cherry-picked only a fragment of what Anduin said in order to misrepresent it.

[Specialka]

Whether it was Alliance doing those things or two people doing bad things is completely inconsequential to what is Anduin's stance on the issue. That, as @Super Dickmann already pointed out, was the point, meaning that you're moving the goalposts here. Well, that and the part of how you cherry-picked only a fragment of what Anduin said in order to misrepresent it.

And that does not change anything but whatever. And you know I did not try to misrepresent anything, unlink you who like to cherrypick, twist the information or even take gameplay information as valid as lore for your argumentation.

[Trans Lives Matter]

Blizzard through Baine pretty much confirmed that hunters and such were trained there so I dont really see how it is a war crime

Every questhub in WoW pretty much trains people.

[Beuargh]

frankly I dont care about your counter point and wont listen to it!

Then there is not much to discuss.....

Basically you saw the other thread "why theramore is seen as unjustified" and as a good alliance zealot you decided to miror it. 10yo mentality.

you take this game way too seriously. Time to take a break perhaps.

Infracted.

[RCA]

All is fair in love and war they say. Although, whenever I fly over the ruins and find an ally questing, oh they’re going down for my fallen cow folk. I think anyone who started out the game playing Tauren, feels horrible losing the first village outside of mulgore, you know them really exploring the game beyond the starting zone. Don’t remember if there’s an incursion at the gate that got erected but there was the battlefield to the south. Justifiable or not, southern barrens was definitely a war zone at that time leading to unfortunate circumstances for all and the bystanders.

[Feanoro]

Someone still didn't get the "lesson of Pandaria", so I guess we'll get a third faction war expansion down the line.

Which lesson would that be?

"War is bad, maaaaaaaaan." - Yes, there's plenty here that don't get that, see you in MoP 3.0!

"Social Darwinism and culling undesirables and the weak makes us strong!" - Remember this? It was pointed out by the Mantid, and the Pandas echo it. A philosophy responsible for some of the greatest horrors of the twentieth century, and WoW is unironically championing it.

Or some of the other "We had Chinese fortune cookies the other night, got some good lines to put in that Panda expansion!" writing?

MoP was a damn mess for a coherent message.

[Lupinemancer]

Because Horde fanboys don't like to be reminded they are the bad guys so when anything bad happens to them or their towns, they wanna pretend to be the good guys who were attacked unprovoked, despite that being what they always do to the Alliance.