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  1. #1

    What is considered a Kingdom in Azeroth

    So I recently had this argument on my classic server where someone said that Theramore is NOT considered a kingdom. Where in real life a kingdom requires a royal line and whatnot in Azeroth its not as simple so I'm wondering what is or is not considered a kingdom in at least the human civilizations of Warcraft and possibly others.
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  2. #2
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Theramore was technically considered a kingdom, given that Jaina is herself in a royal line (that of Kul Tiras and the ruling Proudmoore lineage), which would make Theramore essentially a royal nation-state. I'm not really sure if the "Kingdom of Theramore" really extended much beyond said technicality, as it acted more or less as a city-state and an Alliance protectorate once the Alliance reconvened with its power moved to Stormwind under the Wrynns.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Theramore was technically considered a kingdom, given that Jaina is herself in a royal line (that of Kul Tiras and the ruling Proudmoore lineage), which would make Theramore essentially a royal nation-state. I'm not really sure if the "Kingdom of Theramore" really extended much beyond said technicality, as it acted more or less as a city-state and an Alliance protectorate once the Alliance reconvened with its power moved to Stormwind under the Wrynns.
    WRONG

    I'm going to use male terms.

    In regards to Theramore Jaina was never considered part of the royal line until after bfa events. That makes Theramore a city state only. Even if Jaina was part of the royal line and Theramore still existed, then it would be a princedom which can have its own rules and laws as long as the king doesn't object. If Jaina become king then Theramore would have to be rules by someone else to keep it's princedom status or just be rules directly by the throne and be just a city.
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  4. #4
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    WRONG

    I'm going to use male terms.

    In regards to Theramore Jaina was never considered part of the royal line until after bfa events. That makes Theramore a city state only. Even if Jaina was part of the royal line and Theramore still existed, then it would be a princedom which can have its own rules and laws as long as the king doesn't object. If Jaina become king then Theramore would have to be rules by someone else to keep it's princedom status or just be rules directly by the throne and be just a city.
    Wrong, how? Jaina was always Daelin's daughter, and Daelin Proudmoore was the ruler and monarch of Kul Tiras since WC2. She's of royal descent and created her own city-state with her own people (those who followed her to Kalimdor at the Oracle/Medivh's suggestion). If there's any other requirement for a kingdom to come to be I don't know of it. Daelin did try to usurp her kingdom from her in WC3: TFT, but he and his forces were violently expelled by Jaina's alliance with Thrall and the Horde, and rulership of Theramore returned to Jaina in the aftermath.

    You might technically call it a petty kingdom based on its size, but it was a kingdom with a ruling monarch nonetheless.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  5. #5
    Eh, most of the "kingdoms" at this point are closer to alliances of city-states rather than true kingdoms on their own.

    Mostly because there is constant pressure on their boundaries with only single cities where things are rather peaceful.

    So like the Roman Empire started from the city-state of Rome then gradually spread around the Mediterranean, Northern Africa, Persia and even to England and northern Europe so that as it expanded many of their conflicts were pushed to the borders but in general cities inside those borders were safe and could rely upon the empire itself for protection.

    Then you have WoW where you may have places like Crossroads and Darkshire but even in those places you find yourself defended not by the armies of Orgrimmar or Stormwind but by local militia - in the case of Westfall local militia entirely funded locally with no real help from Stormwind. Darkshore is defended by local groups of Sentinels rather than a Night Elf army, Draenei are entirely on their own for their defense and maintenance of the borders of the Exodar. You might say the Trolls relied on the Orcs for defense - and that was certainly true in Classic - but after Cataclysm they own the Echo islands unto themselves.

    Just thinking about it under the broadest of terms I'd say the only "kingdoms" would be Mulgore - as the Tauren truly control multiple settlements and it's under the direct control of Baine, Tyrsfal Glades since everything is directly under the control of Sylvannas and includes multiple settlements, the Zandalari though that's crumbling with stratified power as Rhastakhan isn't maintaining his empire, and that's really about it.

    The other countries are either city-states without a true army from the homeland to protect the interests of the country as a whole but instead rely upon militia, they aren't kingdoms but rather bizarre republics controlled by councils, or they are just bands of refugees slumming it. (Gilneans, Void Elves, Lightforged, Pandaren, Goblins.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Wrong, how? Jaina was always Daelin's daughter, and Daelin Proudmoore was the ruler and monarch of Kul Tiras since WC2. She's of royal descent and created her own city-state with her own people (those who followed her to Kalimdor at the Oracle/Medivh's suggestion). If there's any other requirement for a kingdom to come to be I don't know of it. Daelin did try to usurp her kingdom from her in WC3: TFT, but he and his forces were violently expelled by Jaina's alliance with Thrall and the Horde, and rulership of Theramore returned to Jaina in the aftermath.

    You might technically call it a petty kingdom based on its size, but it was a kingdom with a ruling monarch nonetheless.
    Eh, Kul'Tiras is a conglomerate of three city states with a semi-ceremonial position of Lord High Admiral that can easily pass between one of the four great houses. We just haven't heard of any other houses than the Proodmoore's being in charge. Meanwhile each house tends to keep entirely to themselves and avoid meddling in the affairs of the other houses.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by munkeyinorbit View Post
    In regards to Theramore Jaina was never considered part of the royal line until after bfa events.
    But her line was royal line, even if she was dispossessed of that title until BfA, any Kingdom is a kingdom by the nature of a line of monarchs, not of a single one.

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  7. #7
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    Eh, Kul'Tiras is a conglomerate of three city states with a semi-ceremonial position of Lord High Admiral that can easily pass between one of the four great houses. We just haven't heard of any other houses than the Proodmoore's being in charge. Meanwhile each house tends to keep entirely to themselves and avoid meddling in the affairs of the other houses.
    But Daelin is still accorded as the "Ruler of Kul Tiras" and the monarch to whom the other houses, effectively a court of landed nobles, owes their allegiance. The title of Lord/Lady Admiral also passed to his wife Katherine on Daelin's death, further demonstrating that the position was not elected and was actually hereditary, which is to expected in a traditional monarchy. Derek Proudmoore, Daelin's eldest son in life, is also accorded the telling title of "Crown Prince of Kul Tiras."
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  8. #8
    Technically, a kingdom is a country whose leader has the title of "king" (or "queen"). That's all.
    You technically don't need to have PREVIOUSLY been of "royalty", having the title CONFERS you royalty (of course, in practice, it's a bit more complicated due to inertia and tradition, and those like Napoléon who reached royalty without having it in their bloodline were seen as usurpers for a while, but if they managed to hold on power for long enough then they would simply found a new royal bloodline).

    As such, if Jaina had the title of "queen", then Theramore was a kingdom. But I don't think she ever did, nor any sort of actual title in fact, so Theramore is just, technically, a dictatorship (a benevolent one).

  9. #9
    You can have a kingdom without a monarch, like Kingdom of Hungary.

  10. #10
    In WoW, a proper nation (meaning it is not a tribe, clan, etc.) has been called a kingdom many times. At this point the word is used as a synonym of "nation". Durotar has been called a kingdom, also Dalaran and Kul Tiras whom doesn't have a king. And I think other nations too. Suramar is another example though with this one it seems the name is official even though they have no king.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    But Daelin is still accorded as the "Ruler of Kul Tiras" and the monarch to whom the other houses, effectively a court of landed nobles, owes their allegiance. The title of Lord/Lady Admiral also passed to his wife Katherine on Daelin's death, further demonstrating that the position was not elected and was actually hereditary, which is to expected in a traditional monarchy. Derek Proudmoore, Daelin's eldest son in life, is also accorded the telling title of "Crown Prince of Kul Tiras."
    Or she could've been elected to the position after he went missing and a perk to the position is her family get to pick titles for themselves. Gelbin is an elected leader and he chose the title King of Gnomes for himself and he could technically be voted out whenever.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    Or she could've been elected to the position after he went missing and a perk to the position is her family get to pick titles for themselves. Gelbin is an elected leader and he chose the title King of Gnomes for himself and he could technically be voted out whenever.
    True enough. The term "kingdom" has been used for Theramore, and Jaina checks all the boxes for monarch regardless of the methodology you use - so I would still consider it appropriate to call Theramore a kingdom with Jaina as its effective "queen" even if she opts not to use the title herself.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  13. #13
    I don't think Jaina saw herself as a monarch of Theramore or that the people that lived there saw themselves as inhabitants of a kingdom.

    While it's possibly technically true, has the term kingdom or w/e ever been attributed to Theramore in the lore?

    I think it should be noted that the people of Theramore were never one ethnic group, but largely belonged to the disparate kingdoms/factions in Lordaeron, primarily Dalaran and Lordaeron proper, the former of which had never had a king or monarch.
    Last edited by WaltherLeopold; 2020-07-03 at 12:36 PM.

  14. #14
    I mean if we're going to be pedantic and Theramore is a kingdom it would be more akin to a principality given Jaina's hereditary position and Theramore's limited political and geographic power.

    That said until BFA I can see the argument that Theramore wouldn't have been a kingdom since apparently Jaina has been a persona non grata in Kul'tiras since WCIII (and presumably not having a recognised title as a result).

  15. #15
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaltherLeopold View Post
    I don't think Jaina saw herself as a monarch of Theramore or that the people that lived there saw themselves as inhabitants of a kingdom.

    While it's possibly technically true, has the term kingdom or w/e ever been attributed to Theramore in the lore?

    I think it should be noted that the people of Theramore were never one ethnic group, but largely belonged to the disparate kingdoms/factions in Lordaeron, primarily Dalaran and Lordaeron proper, the former of which had never had a king or monarch.
    Jaina refers to Theramore as "her kingdom" in Tides of War (pg. 228).
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Wrong, how? Jaina was always Daelin's daughter, and Daelin Proudmoore was the ruler and monarch of Kul Tiras since WC2. She's of royal descent and created her own city-state with her own people (those who followed her to Kalimdor at the Oracle/Medivh's suggestion). If there's any other requirement for a kingdom to come to be I don't know of it. Daelin did try to usurp her kingdom from her in WC3: TFT, but he and his forces were violently expelled by Jaina's alliance with Thrall and the Horde, and rulership of Theramore returned to Jaina in the aftermath.

    You might technically call it a petty kingdom based on its size, but it was a kingdom with a ruling monarch nonetheless.
    Well, first off, being the child of a king/queen doesn't automatically make you a king/queen.
    Second, Daelin was not a king.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Jaina refers to Theramore as "her kingdom" in Tides of War (pg. 228).
    That sounds so paper thin though, an extremely isolated incident, i'd agree with you if she'd routinely referred to Theramore as her kingdom or if Theramore ever have been described as a kingdom, but like let's be real, it's never been actualized outside of that one line.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by WaltherLeopold View Post
    That sounds so paper thin though, an extremely isolated incident, i'd agree with you if she'd routinely referred to Theramore as her kingdom or if Theramore ever have been described as a kingdom, but like let's be real, it's never been actualized outside of that one line.
    Actually, Knaak called it "island kingdom of Theramore" on his books a few times. Like in the Dawn of the Aspects.

  19. #19
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pendraeg View Post
    Well, first off, being the child of a king/queen doesn't automatically make you a king/queen.
    Second, Daelin was not a king.
    Automatically? No. But when you're of royal lineage and you *also* lead a diaspora from another land to create your own nation-state with said followers accepting you as their de facto monarch, then yeah, you've just made a kingdom. Jaina didn't establish a democracy or republic, either; so I'd call it a monarchy.

    Daelin calling himself a "king" or a "lord admiral" or any other title is just semantic. He was the de facto ruler of Kul Tiras to whom everyone else owed allegiance and followed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WaltherLeopold View Post
    That sounds so paper thin though, an extremely isolated incident, i'd agree with you if she'd routinely referred to Theramore as her kingdom or if Theramore ever have been described as a kingdom, but like let's be real, it's never been actualized outside of that one line.
    There's a few other references to it throughout the Warcraft canon, as well. I don't think it was used often, but it was used more than once. Someone mentioned Dawn of the Aspects above, and I think it's referred to as a kingdom somewhere in War Crimes as well.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Wrong, how? Jaina was always Daelin's daughter, and Daelin Proudmoore was the ruler and monarch of Kul Tiras since WC2. She's of royal descent and created her own city-state with her own people (those who followed her to Kalimdor at the Oracle/Medivh's suggestion). If there's any other requirement for a kingdom to come to be I don't know of it. Daelin did try to usurp her kingdom from her in WC3: TFT, but he and his forces were violently expelled by Jaina's alliance with Thrall and the Horde, and rulership of Theramore returned to Jaina in the aftermath.

    You might technically call it a petty kingdom based on its size, but it was a kingdom with a ruling monarch nonetheless.
    maybe there are rules like in lordaeron where calia was excluded from the succession because she was female. or there are evidencies of the contrary?

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