Night Elves, Magic & the Arcane - Common Misconceptions & Things You Didn't Consider

[Hellspawn]

I just don't see the point of wanting more stuff for a Highborne customisation when the look and vibe is captured extremely well in a void elf or nightborne. It makes night elf magical stuff pointless and much better for development to focus on things not available to void elves and nightborne.

Why do you care at all when you are not even interested in night elfs? Some want the captured fantasy of arcanists from 10000Years ago minus this extrem focus on blood lines. Void Elf don't capture that fantasy at all and nightborne are hyper focused on magic, they are missing both the Elune aspect as well as the Nature aspect.

[ravenmoon]

Why do you care at all when you are not even interested in night elfs? Some want the captured fantasy of arcanists from 10000Years ago minus this extrem focus on blood lines. Void Elf don't capture that fantasy at all and nightborne are hyper focused on magic, they are missing both the Elune aspect as well as the Nature aspect.

Indeed, the night elf arcane fantasy is unique, because of it's package that includes Elunism, and those druids. While those druids may not populate the cities or want them or care about them, they're a large and influential faction and despite their humble demeanour, night elves listen to them the most.

This is a very different situation than blood elf culture or Nightborne. If we delved into Farakki culture, Drakkari, and Amani, as well as Zandalari and Darkspear, we'll find a lot of similarities but some differences, but it's fine to have all trolls have this Loa and regen characteristics, but not fine for all elves to have that arcane affinity and capability /side to them. The night elves must somehow have that missing because horde fans think that's the only way their identity can be preserved.

See the false argument -? Saying it's the only way their identity to be preserved when that segregation of magical focus or habitat is what defines identity of wow races. Wow races are not defined by who is magical and who is feral or who is forest and who is city within a race type. All elves have magic, city and forest - so these guys claiming their identity is undermined is a lying excuse to prevent their rivals from being developed
.

It's the same rubbish argument they used back in the day about classes, basically so called pure dps classes wanted their specs to do the highest damage and keep being the best at dps, so they argued that so called hybrids couldn't be competitive because if they were , no one would play the class and they were taking away their defining feature and asset. Little ol me and a few players were calling it out for b/s, that it's the playstyle and fun of the class that should draw people to playing it, not whether it's pure dps or not, and they should all have equal damage to be competitive and selectable.

NO the pures argued, it would ruin us, we can only be dps, they can be other specs, no one would want to play these classes. And blizzard listened, until they changed developers, and in WotLk, the highest peaking expansion, hybrid dps specs were competitive with pure specs - and guess what, no one was abandoning pures in droves, in fact it just raised the number of people playing hybrids - which had become quite low. They wanted their spec to have the best and didn't want anyone close..it's exactly the same thing but with the pretty elven stuff.

[Alanar]

Good point Tanaria. They should give the tattoos and if you want them on your lock or on your priest, rogue or hunter go for it., you can design your own Farstrider look.

And night elves dont need any more options for Highborne, we already got 3 highborne factions they can roll a void elf for a purple highborne now if they want, in fact I'm considering making a new Queen Azshara and cant choose between a void elf female or nightborne, ahy suggestions?

Night elves arent made to model highborne, not even sure why blizz keeps em around, but I wasnt sure why they kept high elves around when the majority of the race moves to something else..

I think latest customisation make blizzards answer quite clear, there is nothing neat or polished about any of the new night elf options, it's all wild and feral

Now I'd have loved some of those messier options for my Belf hunter, but I'll just have to continue to look pristine, I'm high class after all, and you can look fabulous even while hunting Amani in the forests. That's what it ,means to be fabulous!

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Exactly, if you want a different enough looking and still be purple, void elf or nightborne are all highborne based groups and they have the look, just roll one.

Not sure what the fixation of playing a bully night elf as a noble high class elf - alliance have void elves for that, horde have actual night elf nobles in the nightborne. Just play those

If they were super differnt and visually interesting.. I would be all for it, but .. yea highborne are playable as in nightborne. Anyway I am all for new options and I believe some highborne stuff would be welcome, sure, but besides the golden eyes and white hair( which many night elves and nightborne have already) I dont quite understand what you want to get or what you mean by highborne customization?

Nightborne also have a lightblonde option as well tbh, I dont see night elves getting actuall blonde hair, the orange light brown is probably the light color next to the white one. The pitch black one ia cool as well.

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1. Here's the thing, I know some hordies find it hard to believe that some night elf fans actually wanna play as a Queen Azshara type, or Xavius type or Farondis type,

The character you name arent that differnt visually.. so when you would get blue skin like azshara.. its win right? Because the others are generic night elf models and use the ingame customization.

So with that said.. what do you want to feel like a highborne?
Try to awnser that without mentioning any of the nightborne because thats taken. Mace I strongly wish fornew exciting options we need that right now and.. not just copypaste nightborne stuff.

[Tanaria]

I'm alright for Night Elves to have a current nightborne feature or two, just so long as then, the Nightborne get something that's unique to them - and only them - and it's new features the night elves don't get.

[ravenmoon]

@Super Dickmann I read what you wrote, and I have some points to make about identity that seems to have some issue amongst some horde fans currently. @EnigmAddict this is for you too

Just because blood elves are beautiful doesn't mean night elves being beautiful loses blood elf identity. In fact night elf females are more beautiful but in a different way. Blood elves are elves from night elves - this shouldn't surprise you, Night elves aren't worgen or night fae, but elves)
Just because night elves have long ears doesn't mean night elves having that to makes blood elves lose their identity, in fact night elf ears are longer and different
Just because blood elves do arcane magic, doesn't mean night elves doing so makes blood elves lose their identity, in fact night elves arcane mastery is written as more advanced with a different focus more star moon based - this shouldn't surprise you - whether heavily prevalent now or in the past or in the future. In fact Night elves have it to a larger extent.
Just because blood elves have a fancy magical city, doesn't mean night elves having one makes blood elves lose their identity, in fact the night elf pre sundering cities have different colour schemes building styles despite some similarities. In fact night elven ones were bigger and more marvellous


Because they are elves you find they share a lot of things, they just do them differently. This shouldn't surprise you, Night elves aren't troll or Cenarians, but elves

And did you notice that the original version is always bigger, more purer? Whether it's size of body or city, degree of mastery, length of arms or ears or level - night elves are made to be the bigger - the more complete - I didn't write this.

As the parent elf group, night elves have all the key things blood elves do plus more, and in a diversified way (just like the ears, beauty, eyebrows etc). They aren't meant to do be entirely different. that's what a different race is for.


Sure night elves have a strong forest magic and unique priesthood blood elves don't have, but they also have a shared arcane legacy and aptitude where they are more similar..


It’s a fallacy that night elves have to be totally different for blood elves to feel like they have an identity;

• - that they can't do arcane magic well or have a large or any Highborne/arcane order/culture,
• that they can't or shouldn't have stunning night elven cities

Simply because it somehow makes them too similar to blood elves or are taking the blood elf spot - that's a poor argument, why not remove such from humans and every other race while you're at it/cos it's infringing on blood elves, least of all night elves who are the originator of such things in elves. As it stands, Nelves are already different and feel different, and yes, this is even with night elven Highborne and even with a city pre-sundering style, night elves are going to feel different to blood elves because their style and focus is different and their package combo is different. They have an organised priesthood and druidic philosophy alongside their arcane Highborne type. This aspect doesn't need to be downplayed or disappear because it is similar to Blood elves - sin'dorei are elves ffs, and are so because of Nelves, they're supposed to be based on them. I'd understand if night elves were sun focused and had near identical buildings and lay out - like high elves are, but this is not the case and you guys are going too far.


Now Nightborne is different, the way they do arcane and cities is going to be near identical to night elves, but you are wrong if you thinking this is bad because Nightborne identity is lost – Nightborne have the night elven arcane and civilization culture and identity because they're a night elf based group, they are supposed to be the same because that is what Nightborne is based on - it's more ridiculous to complain night elf city and set up should be entirely different because of what Nightborne have - it's like saying high elves should build a totally different style and not have arcane magic because blood elves do that - this is not what having the group is supposed to illicit - it's not supposed to generate a totally different style, city type or way of doing arcane - because they're same race/culture - you switch the race if you actually want to do do something that different. The funny thing is that even with it being the same, night elves are going to feel different despite the arcane magic type and usage being identical and despite very similar cities, because of how night elf culture is more diversified.

• We expect Tauren and Highmountain cultures and cities to be both very similar. Minor variations like colour spread and shape difference but very similar, because one is based off the other.
• We expect Lightforged Draenei to be very similar to Draenei, with minor variations again, like colour and slightly different shapes
• We see Drakkari troll and Amani very similar yet different, and when we see Zandalari the original Troll race we see again similarity but in the grander more original format.

Well Zandalari stuff to Drakkari this is how night elves are with blood elves, the original race, the progenitor has a grander splendour - this how it is in Warcraft, blizzard did it first with the night elf, that's why night elven cities and arcane mastery is on a higher level and grander scale - and though their history is different, those things survive. How you see amani compared to Drakkari is sort how night elven Highborne is compared to Nightborne


By ignoring the clearly night elven aspects like their arcane mastery, Highborne, pre-sundering city style, kaldorei civilization, kaldorei culture in cities with its mix of Highborne and priesthood to only emphasise their forest mastery it's like you are imagining them to be a different race. If they must be completely different from blood elves in every way, than they really shouldn't be elves, at this rate in your presentation, other races are closer to blood elves than night elves are, this is not how species "type" works in warcraft - maybe in other games - but the elf sub groups and off shoots are too have major similarities and you shouldn't take the fact they have some major distinctiveness as the only thing that should define them, without which they have no purpose

Night elves are meant to have everything in their history and present (that's why they are there - yes obvious statement), no one can be that or have that but they, this part of their lore has been a part of them from day one, and even if the forest part dominates the present, the arcane parts (i.e. magic, Highborne, cities, civilization etc) is still a large part of their lore and some players imagine their night elves as 10k year old Highborne or Moon Guard in an aspect of the night elves that still is around, has a community and is very night elven.

It may not dominate the night elf scene like the druids and priests but it is iconic, desirable and has its role and place. Just because demon hunters are small doesn't make them any less distinctive unique and night elven based.

When Nelf fans want cool night elven cities, they want their racial ones from their lore off screen, they're not coveting blood elven ones, and the nightborne one is exactly that. So it shouldn't surprise you they want night elf stuff.

Highborne growing or building their own city or in charge off handling kaldorei urban planning and development as well as magical affairs doesn't make the kaldorei any less kaldorei or distinctive for being night elves as that culture, aesthetic have all been defined for them.Not does it erase their or diminish their forest identity or Elune female amazonian one

. In fact, it enhances them to have such contrast and variation as well as additionally reminding you visually and screen time wise that other elves do come from them. So blizz really should never abandon that facet, it is great use for night elves and is also quite loved even by nature lovers.

[Mace]

@Alanar Concerning Identity:

Arcane Magic is the elf race staple and chief identitfier. It isn't an exclusive to horde thing at all. It is the one thing common to all Elven races and factions.

Night elves are given the greatest achievement and mastery of it - as the original race of elves, and even after the race remnants main group banned it's practice for 10k years, they still remain as gifted in it as day one, still had an entire society of arcane wielding night elves return to them and those arcane wielding night elves started training night elves new and old alike who had the incredible talent just as powerfully gifted now as they were 10k years ago.

The race has been surrounded by arcane magic through Moonwells and the Well of Eternity, the real difference between them and blood elves is that it's use is not as widespread, but there are also many other differences between blood elves and night elves, arcane magic isn't the only factor to consider. However as elves they bear the same talent for magic across the board - whether arcane, nature, fel, divine etc. If blood levs put their heart to nature magic, they'll be as good as night elves ..

The elf species set is magic.

The character you name arent that differnt visually.. so when you would get blue skin like azshara.. its win right? Because the others are generic night elf models and use the ingame customization.

So with that said.. what do you want to feel like a highborne?
Try to awnser that without mentioning any of the nightborne because thats taken. Mace I strongly wish for new exciting options we need that right now and.. not just copypaste nightborne stuff.

• Screentime. I want to see night elf Highborne in game doing powerful acts and displays of magic like we saw Farondis, Moonguard and Nightborne in 7.0
• City - I want to see the night elves build a fully fledged night elf civilization wonder city - Highborne commissioned because they do arcane magic and city construction best. Template Zin'Azshari warbringers (it's different enough from Suramar)
• Character model: males need a neat eyebrow and neat beard option, younger versions of their wrinkled face, and head dress like my avatar pic that speaks high noble. But mainly I would add a feature that screams arcane, like one of the tattoo styles being glowing arcane energy runes and maybe glowy hands/feet, maybe star patterns on their skin. And I would allow them to have a different idle pose.

City
Having a night elf city and a proper full one at that, doesn't remove or diminish the druidic portion which isn't city based but forest, and actually complements the priesthood who reside in beautiful temples. 1 city does not turn night elves into Nightborne or blood elves because it doesn't remove their other influences like their priesthood and nature love.

Screentime
Having more screen time for their Highborne an arcane wielders merely enhances this side of them, it doesn't eliminate the others, it shows all exactly what the lore says, and makes the night elves appear more diversified. they are part of the night elves. A blood elf type that loves Farstriders is equally entitled to want to see more of that side of the blood elves, and showing it doesn't remove or change the blood elven arcane or light mastery.

Customisation.
Having distinct enough unique Highborne customisation helps to underline that while night elven, this group sets itself apart and is of a different calibre to the priest, druid, Dh or Dk. It is just like the demon hunter Illidari and undead DK night elves have some distinctive features that sett hem apart. Highborne should have a series of arcane effect choices, ornamentation and pose.

[ravenmoon]

I'm alright for Night Elves to have a current nightborne feature or two, just so long as then, the Nightborne get something that's unique to them - and only them - and it's new features the night elves don't get.

Personally I would prefer them not to have anything the nightborne have, even though they're the same culture group. Let's just chalk it down to Eldre'thalas highborne did things a little differenetly from Suramar highborne.

1. Different pose to both current night elf and nightborne
2. Differnet arcane features - like glowy hands, or glitter/star effects instead of vines in hair, I'm a fan of star skins like this



3. Ornamentation head sets - the following pictures SCREAM highborne:



4. Body thinning. Now this is a new area, if they could re-proportion the arms and musculature reduction a little could go a long way.



however, sharing somethings with nightborne isn't theend of the world either, afterall, everything nightborne have apart fromt heir model's variants is from the night elves, and they are supposed to be that kaldorei arcane culture anyway, you would expect similarities though you don'th ave to give them. Just like Void elves and high elves would share al ot of phsycial things with blood elves.

[Alanar]

@Alanar Concerning Identity:

Arcane Magic is the elf race staple and chief identitfier. It isn't an exclusive to horde thing at all. It is the one thing common to all Elven races and factions.
The elf species set is magic.

We know that and some elves use more then others, whats new?
I am absolutely aware of their identity, I am just not sure if you are.. you seem to miss what Night elves stand for currently. Hopefully you can prove me wrong on this.

• Screentime. I want to see night elf Highborne in game doing powerful acts and displays of magic like we saw Farondis, Moonguard and Nightborne in 7.0
• City - I want to see the night elves build a fully fledged night elf civilization wonder city - Highborne commissioned because they do arcane magic and city construction best. Template Zin'Azshari warbringers (it's different enough from Suramar)
• Character model: males need a neat eyebrow and neat beard option, younger versions of their wrinkled face, and head dress like my avatar pic that speaks high noble. But mainly I would add a feature that screams arcane, like one of the tattoo styles being glowing arcane energy runes and maybe glowy hands/feet, maybe star patterns on their skin. And I would allow them to have a different idle pose.

With Night elves being pressented as the forect elves more and more and a small section of the Night elves dabble in magic(lorewise and ingame) of arcane magic, what we see is an increase in race it's own identity.. the customization options kinda reflect that. I have high hopes and it does seem they realy try to make sure they have one.. we are missing that atm. Night elves need something and sorry, but as long as nightborne excists.. we can be pretty sure that highborne vibe will stay there. I don't mind a few new options for Night elves, but the problem here is the bolded part Mace. I know these are just examples, but once again you are summing up Nightborne features that should be exclusive to them. The Nightborne fans currently, have a pretty long list of npc-player model discussions. Couple of those are the arcane finger tips and arcane hair. It's very hard to not make that the same looking..even with a new idle animation it will just look to much like a Nightborne and I don't think that is a healthy direction for a already fragile horde race in terms of customization or their own thing.

I think the biggest problem of all is there is no such thing as HIGHBORNE customization. All the stuff that is linked or idea thrown in are fun and all, but are all fanart/headcannon stuff. So blizz would need to create that first.. so by saying that it sounds more and more idiotic when we already have that covered in the Nightborne representing that arcane era. Why would create a second spinoff of that for no real reason. I mean looking at current Night elf lore I wouldn't even match. Farondis is bad example since he is just a night elf model, queen azshara is also just a night elf.. the only unique thing is the golden eyes and her blue skin color. They would need to CREATE that without people saying those are just Nightborne. I mean how feastable is that?

5
City
Having a night elf city and a proper full one at that, doesn't remove or diminish the druidic portion which isn't city based but forest, and actually complements the priesthood who reside in beautiful temples. 1 city does not turn night elves into Nightborne or blood elves because it doesn't remove their other influences like their priesthood and nature love.

Customisation.
Having distinct enough unique Highborne customisation helps to underline that while night elven, this group sets itself apart and is of a different calibre to the priest, druid, Dh or Dk. It is just like the demon hunter Illidari and undead DK night elves have some distinctive features that sett hem apart. Highborne should have a series of arcane effect choices, ornamentation and pose.

Shame you keep falling back to the same Nightborne options, look I see you would like to see A LOT, but to make things realistic I need to go back to my first response and its the same for here and that is simply that you keep summing up HIGHBORNE options as in Nightborne actual features. This doesn't go hand in hand. Nightborne have evolved to a new race and those things you keep saying make Nightborne, Nightborne.

Arcane finger tips
Arcane hair
Differnt idle animations
Runic arcane tattoo

It's just not fair mace.. and you know it. So what I mean by being realistic is simple options that work and are alot more likely in the first place: New white like jewerly and alot of it, or new ear armor.. new hairstyles. But what you want will never work the way you want it, so now knowing once again what you truly want.. it's very hard to find common ground with people who are against your idea, so idk how you see a continuation with me on this topic?, but if you keep summing up the same things.. it it will be pretty pointless don't you think? so it's up to you if you want to keep mentioning me all the time, I will ignore the essays, but I will continue not agreeing with you. Is that fun?

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I'm alright for Night Elves to have a current nightborne feature or two, just so long as then, the Nightborne get something that's unique to them - and only them - and it's new features the night elves don't get.

So what are you thinking about?
read my post to mace about my concerns for that.

Nightborne are already called night elf.. why give up the only few things that make Nightborne unique in the first place?96

[Mace]

We know that and some elves use more then others, whats new?
I am absolutely aware of their identity, I am just not sure if you are.. you seem to miss what Night elves stand for currently. Hopefully you can prove me wrong on this.



With Night elves being pressented as the forect elves more and more and a small section of the Night elves dabble in magic(lorewise and ingame) of arcane magic, what we see is an increase in race it's own identity.. the customization options kinda reflect that. I have high hopes and it does seem they realy try to make sure they have one.. we are missing that atm. Night elves need something and sorry, but as long as nightborne excists.. we can be pretty sure that highborne vibe will stay there. I don't mind a few new options for Night elves, but the problem here is the bolded part Mace. I know these are just examples, but once again you are summing up Nightborne features that should be exclusive to them. The Nightborne fans currently, have a pretty long list of npc-player model discussions. Couple of those are the arcane finger tips and arcane hair. It's very hard to not make that the same looking..even with a new idle animation it will just look to much like a Nightborne and I don't think that is a healthy direction for a already fragile horde race in terms of customization or their own thing.





Shame you keep falling back to the same Nightborne options, look I see you would like to see A LOT, but to make things realistic I need to go back to my first response and its the same for here and that is simply that you keep summing up HIGHBORNE options as in Nightborne actual features. This doesn't go hand in hand. Nightborne have evolved to a new race and those things you keep saying make Nightborne, Nightborne.

Arcane finger tips
Arcane hair
Differnt idle animations
Runic arcane tattoo

It's just not fair mace.. and you know it. So what I mean by being realistic is simple options that work and are alot more likely in the first place: New white like jewerly and alot of it, or new ear armor.. new hairstyles. But what you want will never work the way you want it, so now knowing once again what you truly want.. it's very hard to find common ground with people who are against your idea, so idk how you see a continuation with me on this topic?, but if you keep summing up the same things.. it it will be pretty pointless don't you think? so it's up to you if you want to keep mentioning me all the time, I will ignore the essays, but I will continue not agreeing with you. Is that fun?

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So what are you thinking about?
read my post to mace about my concerns for that.

Nightborne are already called night elf.. why give up the only few things that make Nightborne unique in the first place?96

I agree with Ravenmoon and Tanaria on it being okay to share some Nightborne features. But like you, I would prefer them not to. Hence what I proposed

• Different idle animations - are not exclusive to Nightborne, they don't have to share the same as them if they must be different. An option is to give them the high elf one - and assume the high elves have it from their Highborne heritage - or create a new one for them.
• Arcane hair -I wasn't proposing arcane hair above, but rather star effects on hair, like glitter with some magical effect. However Nightborne do not have arcane hair currently - that would be a unique concept for Highborne - but as a developer I would give nightobrne arcane hair, but give Night elves star effect alternative to vines. The reason is because Nightborne are more naturally arcanised - or at least were while the Nightwell was up.
• Runic arcane tattoos - are not the exclusive purview of Nightborne, demon hunters have arcane tattoos, the night elves use this, one of the uses of the runes is to trap and subdue the demon within - they don't have to have the same type as Nightborne have - clearly, just a an arcane energy colour variation of the night elf tattoos is enough, or .

As for finding common ground, it's kinda a non issue, we don't get to decide these things really, there is no real reason why Nightborne should be completely different, since they are based on night elves, the degree of difference is entirely up to how the developers want to have it. If they want the Highborne caster to show effects of the Nightborne then so be it, in fact they could have designed it with that in mind. But again Alanar, I agree with you, I'd like something different. It's better that way right?

You asked me to list a bunch of things that were different, I felt those were, but let me go into a bit more detail.

Headdresses - Like the pics Ravenmoon linked which are from my post on Highborne customisations, that's not available to Nightborne at all, that screams night elf and Highborne, look at his avatar pic one, you could see even druids using that. Are you going to say because Nightborne have headdresses and ear pieces it's a no go for night elves? Are you going to say because night elves have neck pieces it's a no go for Nightborne?

Star skin patterns like Ravenmoon linked above is totally absent from Nightborne - and is more a kaldorei -i.e. children of the stars like effect you would expect star effects on children of the stars.

Star effect on hair - again that is not a Nightborne feature. Easy to think stars with the kaldorei - children of the stars. And go from them, and as stars are linked to the arcane - it makes sense as a Highborne feature but it would also work on priests and druids who do use arcane spells that call the stars, even if it is mainly a Highborne feature. Nightborne don't have star effects on their hair, they've been in a starless sky for 10k years, nor do they have arcane hair - but arcane glowing hair is a concept I thought of for night elves that I think would be better on Nightborne, with night elves keeping the star effects.

Younger faces - this is not a Nightborne feature either, young faces are not the exclusive purview of Nightborne, giving wrinkle free versions of the existing Night elf male faces would actually be quite welcome, even if it's just making the face smooth and removing the scowl i.e. changing the expression.

Neater eyebrows. night elves are bigger, hairier, I don't mind the eyebrow being thicker, just neater, like the females got a neat version, at least one neat version for the male. This has nothing to do with the Nightborne - it's a Highborne tell because they tend to be neater. I would also include the groomed lower beard style that seems to have been replaced with the more grown trim version. Keep the trim, but add the groomed back. and give 1 variation of it like the one in this face

This looks Highborne: Check the hair being more neat, fine, the headdress and jewellery and the beard.

[Alanar]

I agree with Ravenmoon and Tanaria on it being okay to share some Nightborne features. But like you, I would prefer them not to. Hence what I proposed

I also gave my reasons to this and explained why I have my concerns with it.

[*]Different idle animations - are not exclusive to Nightborne, they don't have to share the same as them if they must be different. An option is to give them
the high elf one - and assume the high elves have it from their Highborne heritage - or create a new one for them.

But why would we need this? Night elves already have their own.. if you wish to tweak it, sure go ahead and fight for that,I don't see any reason to use the idle animation from high elves??.. this would create even more problems and besides void elves already have this?
Also for the record it's of no use to compare that to hunched or unhunched idle animation. A new set of idle animations should be something for all races tbh, but still be carefull how the idle represents the race for already 15 years. I mean it would be the same if blood elves would get night elf idle animation.. there is no reason at all to mess with stuff like that imo.

[*]Arcane hair -I wasn't proposing arcane hair above, but rather star effects on hair, like glitter with some magical effect. However Nightborne do not have arcane hair currently - that would be a unique concept for Highborne - but as a developer I would give nightobrne arcane hair,

The problem is we look nothing like our npcs and I believe flowing arcane hairs are 100% Nightborne, just fly around in Suramar and see what they missed on the player models.. it's disgusting. Creating a new style with moons or stars aka glitter would be more fitting looking at the priesthood as well. So that is not a bad a idea.

[*]Runic arcane tattoos - are not the exclusive purview of Nightborne, demon hunters have arcane tattoos, the night elves use this, one of the uses of the runes is to trap and subdue the demon within - they don't have to have the same type as Nightborne have - clearly, just a an arcane energy colour variation

Nightborne have a reason why they have them, demon hunters have a reason why they have them.

Why would Night elves even have runic tattoo? they went to the barbershop in Suramar?

As for finding common ground, it's kinda a non issue, we don't get to decide these things really, there is no real reason why Nightborne should be completely different, since they are based on night elves, the degree of difference is entirely up to how the developers want to have it. If they want the Highborne caster to show effects of the Nightborne then so be it, in fact they could have designed it with that in mind. But again Alanar, I agree with you, I'd like something different. It's better that way right?

It's very easy to say that and kinda destroys the purpose of a discussion with you in the first place...

You asked me to list a bunch of things that were different, I felt those were, but let me go into a bit more detail.

This looks Highborne: Check the hair being more neat, fine, the headdress and jewellery and the beard.

So once again..who says it looks highborne? there is no real highborne costumization as in tm..it's just what you envision them , just fanart. An highborne in wow is just a Night elf from back in the day, who though they were differnt, but in fact they weren't. This is lore.

[Mace]

I also gave my reasons to this and explained why I have my concerns with it.

Yes, I agreed with you, on principle this would be better, but I'm okay with some sharing, cos at the end of the day it's a sub-race, and I think extending customisations for night elves can include more features of a sub-race on the opposite faction than one on theirs, simply because of the faction divide.

But why would we need this? Night elves already have their own.. if you wish to tweak it, sure go ahead and fight for that,I don't see any reason to use the idle animation from high elves??.. this would create even more problems and besides void elves already have this?
Also for the record it's of no use to compare that to hunched or unhunched idle animation. A new set of idle animations should be something for all races tbh, but still be carefull how the idle represents the race for already 15 years. I mean it would be the same if blood elves would get night elf idle animation.. there is no reason at all to mess with stuff like that imo.

Same reason we need anything, a desire. But again, it's a valid point, night elves already have their own, however the current night elf pose is rather humble, you arel ooking for ways to make a Highborne appear different, a more arrogant pose or Lordly one would work. Why give the demon hunters differnet looks, different voice, completely different emotes etc, though same race? Because it's a different group/faction. Now I didn't go so far as to ask for that, but if they did give that, they'd need a highborne tab in the NElf character creation, and default that model to have all those features.

The high elf was a suggestion, I personally don't see a problem using it because of what the High elf is, I can see a lore explanation that justifies the pose. It's not a model change nor animation change, just a stand, we know High elves come from Highborne, so we can accept that the high elf pose is highborne in origin. It's an option. they don't have to give anything, but remember we are aiming for a distinctive Highborne appearance.

The problem is we look nothing like our npcs and I believe flowing arcane hairs are 100% Nightborne, just fly around in Suramar and see what they missed on the player models.. it's disgusting. Creating a new style with moons or stars aka glitter would be more fitting looking at the priesthood as well. So that is not a bad a idea.

NPCs are changed retroactively when a decision is made on a unique appearance for a group. It didn't matter that the Zandalari we saw up till cataclysm all looked like Darkspears, but once a distinct model was decided, they changed all the Zandalari to it. It was the same with the demon hunter Illidari, it was an ordinary night elf, but they modified all the models retroactively, the new model that came in Legion wasn't around before. It was also the same with the high elf and blood elf NPCs in classic.. you get the drift.

It's not a problem that new features don't look like NPCs in the game before the features are introduced, they will be changed.

Secondly, you are confusing me here, I haven't observed any arcane hair or flowing arcane hair on Nightborne, I'm not talking about arcane armor head pieces - that's armor made out of the arcane and has arcane effects - it's armor not hair. I'm talking about the actual hair, and for night elves I'm thinking star effects in place of vines, but for Nightborne, I'm thinking something more dramatic, like how Dark Iron/Odyn beards sometimes have fire effects, so too should Nightborne have arcane energy. But I want night elves to get stars in their hair.

Nightborne have a reason why they have them, demon hunters have a reason why they have them.

Why would Night elves even have runic tattoo? they went to the barbershop in Suramar?

Can you explain the reason for the night elf current tattoos? Do they have to explain?
These reasons are invented, like all things. If Highborne were to have them, there would be a reasoning. In this case it's not hard to figure out, the arcane runes are spell wards, protections, boosts and aid to power, it's an arcane thing for arcane users. As such a spell caster having them is not unsurprising - it could be unpopular or focused on specific tasks who knows, they can literally invent anything - again the idea of it was something that SCREAMED arcane user/Highborne type in order to make the model more distinctive.

It's not a compulsory, the current tattoos glowing silver radiant white would be effectively the same thing, the silver beams of light are arcane energy from the stars and moon anyway, and of the internal arcane power in the night elf, having the tattoos glow that could be the night elf version

It's very easy to say that and kinda destroys the purpose of a discussion with you in the first place...

That's true, but i'm not mentioning it to destroy the topic, just reminding you that I am aware of this and pointing it out to you if you're not already aware, that ultimately anything is acceptable, it makes it hard to say anything can't happen or shouldn't happen. You very rarely ever hear or see me say/write that. This is the reason why. I'm seldom outright saying a persons creative decisions can't or shouldn't be implemented, I usually would point out why I think they are less likely, or honestly say I don't like them, and if I do, I'd applaud them, tell them I hope they get it, but possibly point out it's unlikely or it doesn't fit the racial theme or point out better options that might. But fully aware my opinion has no say on the decision making that actually cause these things to be implemented. But they are great discussing because they allow us to express how we feel, and the things that excite us, themes we do.

I mean if I say I want highborne customisations and just leave it at that, but have some exciting images or ideas of what I feel captures that, then I should say right?

I know they're under no obligation to feel the same way or implement, and I am aware this is what I imagine it should be like or would be cool to have for said reasons. can't do much more than that than share.

So once again..who says it looks highborne? there is no real highborne costumization as in tm..it's just what you envision them , just fanart. An highborne in wow is just a Night elf from back in the day, who though they were differnt, but in fact they weren't. This is lore.

[/QUOTE]

It's an example of what I feel captures the look of a Highborne perfectly. From the effects/star like jewels in hair and head piece, to the tidier thinner hair, neater eyebrows, neater more groomed beard styles, the poise - it looks regal, Lordly, regal, captures perfectly what I feel passes for Highborne.

if I wanted a picture to articulate how I perceive them, or an example of them, that would be it. It's based on the old night elf models, and tidies/neatens into a high rez version the night elf player's avatar.

The face is an example of what some of the new night elf faces should have looked like in 6.0 from their classic ones. yet we got only one young face, and 2 without snarls instead of 3 from classic.

Was hoping they would fix that. At the end of the day, to make a Highborne customisation you have to capture the poise, nobility, wealth etc customary to the group. And things that can speak to what the Highborne mainly do like arcane effects that indicate great arcane mastery.

It's a creative exercise I enjoy doing. and this here is just sharing my thoguhts on what I feel captures the Highborne from the lore well. I could totally see Prince Farondis grouped like this, or Estulan

[Alanar]

The high elf was a suggestion, I personally don't see a problem using it because of what the High elf is, I can see a lore explanation that justifies the pose. It's not a model change nor animation change, just a stand, we know High elves come from Highborne, so we can accept that the high elf pose is highborne in origin. It's an option. they don't have to give anything, but remember we are aiming for a distinctive Highborne appearance.

You don't seem to have any problems with anything at all when it's about highborne, not everyone feels that way. I dissagree on touching anything regarding high elves for night elves, you play a night elf not a highborne or a high elf. I wouldn't even go that far and make that a seperate idle/tab option, it just doesn't make sense imo.

NPCs are changed retroactively when a decision is made on a unique appearance for a group. It didn't matter that the Zandalari we saw up till cataclysm all looked like Darkspears, but once a distinct model was decided, they changed all the Zandalari to it. It was the same with the demon hunter Illidari, it was an ordinary night elf, but they modified all the models retroactively, the new model that came in Legion wasn't around before. It was also the same with the high elf and blood elf NPCs in classic.. you get the drift.

I don't think you get it. what you are summing up are just races who didn't have their own unique model yet.. same as high elves were modified night elves till bc. What I am saying is.. we help the nightborne- we get to play them- we end up nothing like the race we fell in love with. How is what you are saying relevant at all? it's not a very good argument when we are talking about a race in your face that gets changed last minute.

Secondly, you are confusing me here, I haven't observed any arcane hair or flowing arcane hair on Nightborne, I'm not talking about arcane armor head pieces - that's armor made out of the arcane and has arcane effects - it's armor not hair. I'm talking about the actual hair, and for night elves I'm thinking star effects in place of vines, but for Nightborne, I'm thinking something more dramatic, like how Dark Iron/Odyn beards sometimes have fire effects, so too should Nightborne have arcane energy. But I want night elves to get stars in their hair.

No one ever said anything about hair pieces... Arcane hair is Nightborne, type in google and see for yourself. it's the longer hair with mana, almost every npc has it. Realy not confusing.

Can you explain the reason for the night elf current tattoos? Do they have to explain?
These reasons are invented, like all things. If Highborne were to have them, there would be a reasoning. In this case it's not hard to figure out, the arcane runes are spell wards, protections, boosts and aid to power, it's an arcane thing for arcane users. As such a spell caster having them is not unsurprising - it could be unpopular or focused on specific tasks who knows, they can literally invent anything - again the idea of it was something that SCREAMED arcane user/Highborne type in order to make the model more distinctive.

Night elves aren't realy an arcane race to begin with it..yes they now have mages blabla not relevant(the era you are talking about never made it in wow for night elves) it would feel out of place while on top of that we already have 2 races/cities dedicated to it.. why we need a third? Regarding your argument of demon hunters /race. Look man.. it's not hard.. Demon hunters have a literal Demon inside of them and the eyes and runic tattoos are part of what makes a demon hunter a demon hunter. Night elves would make 0 sense. It would be a rule of cool kind of joke wheere we see tattoos for everyone.. Arcane tattoo is something else and shouldn't be given to everyone.

Normal tattoos are easy to explain Mace.. because people like thme and require no specilal feat to get them, runic or fell tatoos reflect what that race /class is. Night elves don't need runic tatts. Tattoos like malfurion make more sense to me and its something that the race represents.

- - - Updated - - -

It's a creative exercise I enjoy doing. and this here is just sharing my thoguhts on what I feel captures the Highborne from the lore well. I could totally see Prince Farondis grouped like this, or Estulan

Idk.. I don't see them like that, but once again I think that is just what you envision them. Lore states something else. . If anything at all they should reflect their bad taste with a few jewels here and there nothing more. They were just Night elves.. who thought they were differnt. These guys needed a slap in the face then anything else. something high horses.

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Why do you care at all when you are not even interested in night elfs? Some want the captured fantasy of arcanists from 10000Years ago minus this extrem focus on blood lines. Void Elf don't capture that fantasy at all and nightborne are hyper focused on magic, they are missing both the Elune aspect as well as the Nature aspect.

Thats why we have Night elves who cover that whole bit so we should be good tbh.

[Mace]

You don't seem to have any problems with anything at all when it's about highborne, not everyone feels that way. I dissagree on touching anything regarding high elves for night elves, you play a night elf not a highborne or a high elf. I wouldn't even go that far and make that a seperate idle/tab option, it just doesn't make sense imo.

That's true, everyone has different opinions on what they'd like to see. I mean not everyone wanted allied races, some felt all of it should have just been customisations.. that's the nature of the game. I can respect your opinion even if I disagree, and can respect you would prefer less whereas I would prefer a bit more.

I don't think you get it. what you are summing up are just races who didn't have their own unique model yet.. same as high elves were modified night elves till bc. What I am saying is.. we help the nightborne- we get to play them- we end up nothing like the race we fell in love with. How is what you are saying relevant at all? it's not a very good argument when we are talking about a race in your face that gets changed last minute.

Oh, I think I went off tangent in response to your "we look nothing like our NPcs - it was a response completely unrelated to what you said. However I wasn't just summing up races that have changed as I included DHs (same race but with different customisation options) and the principle applies across the board. Also every new customisation option change could potentially change NPCs too, we don't deny them because they can, we just accept them if they do. Night elves are already been changed by the new options, regardless if they get more.. if they do , those extra changes would likely be reflected in NPCs.

No one ever said anything about hair pieces... Arcane hair is Nightborne, type in google and see for yourself. it's the longer hair with mana, almost every npc has it. Realy not confusing.

Help me out here by linking an image of what you mean then, I've never noticed Nightborne having what I would regard as "arcane" hair. So I assumed you were taking some of the arcane armor head piece effects as hair. Their long hair is just hair, doesn't seem to have any effects on it. What I envision as arcane hair is pulsating energy on the hair, like the Dark Iron beards have with a fire effect, I think this could be a good addition to Nightborne. For night elves, I would give star effects.

Night elves aren't realy an arcane race to begin with it..yes they now have mages blabla not relevant(the era you are talking about never made it in wow for night elves) it would feel out of place while on top of that we already have 2 races/cities dedicated to it.. why we need a third? Regarding your argument of demon hunters /race. Look man.. it's not hard.. Demon hunters have a literal Demon inside of them and the eyes and runic tattoos are part of what makes a demon hunter a demon hunter. Night elves would make 0 sense. It would be a rule of cool kind of joke wheere we see tattoos for everyone.. Arcane tattoo is something else and shouldn't be given to everyone.

Read my opening post on this thread. Night elves are dark trolls that were transformed completely by the arcane into elves, their skin matching the colour of the arcane energies, their eyes glowing with the arcane power, their talent and predisposition for it are part of the race. Night elves have a duality aspect to them, they will always desire and lean towards arcane magic and as such need to be careful not to overdo it. [Read Chronicles and WotA trilogy - that tell you of the natural arcane magical nature of the night elves and their creation from the well, also mentioned again in Suramar quest lines, the night elf has an arcane essence - it was designed as a dark elf that has a wood elf half - read the dev creation interview - then pay attention to it's lore and development where you see a huge arcane development in their pre-sundering era, followed by a huge nature development in their long vigil era, and entering their modern era, you see both present, in a night elf that basically is the original elf unchanged physically or magically from it's original stable creation. - the OP goes into detail on this]

Night elves banning the practice of arcane magic only meant that group went out of practice, it didn't reduce their arcane capability or potential.. they are unchanged physically and magically from how they were before the sundering. Which means it's the same racial elf arcane adept race that was in the pre-sundering era's arcanised society that is in today's night elves whether those elves are priest in a priest community, druids in a druid community or Highborne or Moonguard in mage communities. Whether some went 10k years without wielding arcane spells (Long vigil group), or they continued studying it fervently (Shen'dralar/Moonguard). [Suramar group started ingesting a titan artefact altered arcane source for food, a gross abuse of what magic is intended for (even if they felt it was necessary it was still not the correct use of source)- doing this over millennia is what changes them to Nightborne.]

Having racial capability or talent for the arcane doesn't mean they are locked into only being talented with the arcane. Night elven lore has shown night elves are great with all kinds of magic. If you observe the heights to which night elves can use the arcane, nature, divine and fel magic - this is proof enough itself. Just because the main night elf society doesn't practice arcane as wide spread as all night elves did in the pre-sundering era , doesn't change this fact.

Thalassians have this capability because they are from night elves, they didn't gain it when they became high elves, they have it because they're devolved from night elves. Nightborne have this because they are night elves, in fact, they continued abusing arcane magic as night elves, to the point of using it for food it warped them into their current appearance - night elves altered through abuse of arcane magic - and it was a deadly alteration.

The night elf was made from the arcane energies, and have dwelt around their arcane source their entire racial existence, you may commend their nature love and mastery, and their divine fervour and discipline, but you shouldn't ignore their arcane capability. The Well of Eternity has been a constant throughout their 15,000 year existence, the Sunwell and Nightwell are just copies the night elves who changed into these elves created to continue to rely on when cut off from the main one (Thalassians) and over relied on a substitute (Nightborne). Night elves create Moonwells from the waters of the arcane well of eternity every where they go. But as long as they don't abuse their magical usage to the obscene degree the Nightborne did (i.e. ingesting it), there is no reason why they would change. High elf change is from banishment become high elves because the druids and the Cenarius cut them off from the Well of Eternity and Nordrassil, they did something to them (presumably to remove their ability to access the well and cause trouble with the very spell casting they were prohibited from doing), this causes them to devolve as they travel, and is aided by whole shift habitual changes then the Sunwell - the druids and Cenarius didn't count on them learning to utilise the magic released into the atmosphere by the first implosion - as the only way Nelves thought morals could use magic was through the Well of eternity magical source and didn't seem to be aware of how much was in released by the implosion hanging in the air and could be utilised by expert spell wielders like Darth'remar's group was - or maybe they did, but just didn't think anyone could utilise such spread out dispersed energy, nor were they aware of the vials they stole to create the Sunwell and create a new link to a magic source they created. )

Unlike the other elf groups, because of what happened in the sundering, you now have a majority of the night elves not learning or using arcane magic even though they can. In the post Long Vigil night elf society today (current timeline), they no longer restrict or prohibit arcane magic usage amongst themselves, but only those who are talented enough to become mages bother to learn it.. this is how the elven societies differ on the arcane front.

There is more arcane usage amongst Thalassians and even more amongst Nightborne overall, but the capability and talent for arcane is the same in all of them, and those who focus on magecraft rise tot he same degree.

It's a classic mistake fans who don't know night elf lore make. They think night elves turned into forest elves, incapable of arcane magical use and having no talent or aptitude for it. Both false. The only thing true is that night elf society doesn't make use of arcane magic as widespread as the derivative elven societies do. That's it. Only the Highborne caste mage order learn and use it, not every night elf like in the past, ify ou're not picked by the Shen'dralar for the caste/order, at this point in time you don't learn arcane spell casting. And they only peak those with the brightest talent, just like in the old days. This simply means that the number of arcane users amongst night elves is much smaller than in Blood elf or Nightborne societies , it does not mean the number of mages is smaller, nor does it mean the talent is weaker or the mages less powerful, in fact there could very well be more Highborne mages than blood elven and Nightborne, the thing is nearly every Nightborne can use the arcane - not to mage level, but they can and do employ some degree of usage - this is how the night elf pre-sundering civilization operated, now use is less widespread amongst blood elves, you don't have as many using the arcane as Nightborne society (or pre-sundering kaldorei society), but you do have more than say night elf society or any other race's societies. it's worth bearing in mind.

Normal tattoos are easy to explain Mace.. because people like thme and require no specilal feat to get them, runic or fell tatoos reflect what that race /class is. Night elves don't need runic tatts. Tattoos like malfurion make more sense to me and its something that the race represents.

So we just assume what they mean? what is face paint and what is magical? can you say the ones that night elf druids have is just paint? Then why does the symbol persist into bear form or cat for example?

They could be magical runes, and if they are not, why can't or shouldn't magical runes be added for a race that is the origin of the arcane spell caster? And who's arcane spell casters have a 15k year tradition - might I remind you that the Shen'dralar, like the Illidari night elves are not Darnassian night elves that took a 10k break from arcane magic right, they are as prolific and more knowledgeable than all other arcane users save those of comparable age and expertise , like their Nightborne counterparts, - it doesn't seem out of character or uncharacteristic that they would have arcane runes.

Hence the suggestion as an indication of that mastery. I don't think it's a bad suggestion. And I think the whole point of suggesting is suggesting things you like or want, I don't have to explain or justify why I like or want, it should be enough that I just do. It's a suggestion, not an implementation.

Idk.. I don't see them like that, but once again I think that is just what you envision them. Lore states something else. . If anything at all they should reflect their bad taste with a few jewels here and there nothing more. They were just Night elves.. who thought they were differnt. These guys needed a slap in the face then anything else. something high horses.

Without a doubt, I'm sure I don't see trolls the way you do, I like them a little but not that much, I don't have imaginations for them or have delved deep into their lore to want to desire a presentation that better reflects them.

This is what many of us who are into night elves, especially the Highborne side of the fantasy have done. We like this part of them, so we do artwork that captures how we see them based on what we've rad about them and seen. Highborne aren't shown much in game.. Shen'dralar were a tiny part of early wow - but then most night elf activity was just not developed outside their 1-30 earlier zones. We saw them in Cata some more, and I kid you not only one was shown to do anything. next time we saw arcane wielding night elves was in Legion - 6 years later - however they dominate the lore of the night elves if you read, and have much to say on them even if there is little screen time.

Sure we've seen more night elf casters since, but why would it surprise you that fans of a race want to see improvements… have not all this customisation come about as a result? My brother kept suggesting night elf vines /leaves in hair in every post he did on official forums and here, he also suggested my list, including the stars, we got the vines, we haven't got the stars ..

It's the same imaginative process , people want to play fantasies of their favourite race, whether it's more options for the forest look or more for the arcane Highborne wielding look or more for the demon hunter look fel look or DK undead look.

Night elves are not the only one fans have been suggesting, this is what fans of a race do. Now if you are not all that into a race, you're probably fine with everything that's there, well good for you, but appreciate others would like to see more, and feel more can be done to reflect an aspect of the race they like.

it's like those blood elf fans crying for more Farstrider customisation, that's one I can get behind too, they just point out features they feel fit the Farstriders, some are based on characters they see in game like Alleria (tattoos) and Lor'themar (scars) some are their imagination wanting to yield extra features that can give more looks that fit an outdoor forest hunter/roamer, patroller who has to spend sometimes many nights sleeping rough tumbling through foliage and shrubs, and is just not as pristine as your Magister or robed noble or townsfolk.

These suggestions come out of a place of things people would like to see.

Thats why we have Night elves who cover that whole bit so we should be good tbh.

The desire is for night elves to cover all the things night elves have. Priest, druid, arcane Highborne/Moonguard, fel demon hunter. It's okay for a new night elf sub-race to come along and focus on one, 2 or even 3 of those things - they can do that. This is what Highmountain, Lightforged, Void elf, Mag'har etc all do.

Their existence is not some excuse to block a favoured part of a core race, just because the allied race has that to them.

in this case, Nightborne mages and arcana doesn't replace or remove night elven one or history - Nightborne continue that legacy as a separate people, but so do night elves as night elves. A part of their larger whole. It's a legit part of the night elves people also like and certainly don't want it's development halted and all it's assets and progress just shifted only into the sub-race. it's like telling a Mulgore Tauren lover or human Stormwind lover, all you shamanism culture of your race is now only going to show up in the Highmountain, or we're only going to focus on Boralus city culture now, because that's the a focus of the Kul'tiran..or telling a Draenei, because the Lightforged are full on light, you know, Draenei don't need that anymore,

I don't think that was the point of the Nightborne, or the Highmountain, or the Lightforged or any oft hem, they were just didfferent stories for your favourite race appearing n a different format, and for night elves, there's was placed on the opposite faction which I think actually gives greater cause or desire to see that part of hteir race further developed rather than just say hey, go switch horde if you wanna see more"

It's a double standard people are only applying to elves, nad night elves here, because they simply don't want alliance night elves getting the cool stuff from their lore blizzard gave tot the Nightborne. But you know what, I wanted Suramar, and pristine pre-sundering night elf cities, more visible Highborne and Moonguard casters amongst the night elves long before Legion came, and when the Nightborne came I was ecstatic cos I thought that was the answer that would lead to great development amongst the night elves, but they took the Nightborne horde, so guess what, I still want greater development amongst the night elves, cos I haven't got it yet.

[Alanar]

Help me out here by linking an image of what you mean then, I've never noticed Nightborne having what I would regard as "arcane" hair. So I assumed you were taking some of the arcane armor head piece effects as hair. Their long hair is just hair, doesn't seem to have any effects on it. What I envision as arcane hair is pulsating energy on the hair, like the Dark Iron beards have with a fire effect, I think this could be a good addition to Nightborne. For night elves, I would give star effects.

It was the second picture on google.. so I took that one
https://i.redd.it/4gih78aj58p21.png

Valtrois has the same glow and some of them have the arcane fingertips and differnt kind of runes, the variations are endless on the npcs, but I am sure you know that.

It's a classic mistake fans who don't know night elf lore make. They think night elves turned into forest elves,

Ouch Mace.. they always were the forest elves in wow we play, what you play in game is axactly that, with bits of priest/druid hoods.It wasn't until Cata when some highborne showed up.. and still even when you roll a mage you are still a night elf mage and not a highborne.
The era you are talking about are not the night elves you play in wow, which is explained ingame..

So we just assume what they mean? what is face paint and what is magical? can you say the ones that night elf druids have is just paint? Then why does the symbol persist into bear form or cat for example?

You are making it complicated for no reason, if I am saying normal tattoos, you have no idea what I mean? when you clearly talk about runic/fel tatsoos.

[Tanaria]

it's like those blood elf fans crying for more Farstrider customisation, that's one I can get behind too, they just point out features they feel fit the Farstriders, some are based on characters they see in game like Alleria (tattoos) and Lor'themar (scars) some are their imagination wanting to yield extra features that can give more looks that fit an outdoor forest hunter/roamer, patroller who has to spend sometimes many nights sleeping rough tumbling through foliage and shrubs, and is just not as pristine as your Magister or robed noble or townsfolk.

These suggestions come out of a place of things people would like to see.

I haven't been crying for more Farstrider looks as "Farstrider looks" is just extra blood elf looks because my Blood Elf Warlock could easily have features that you would consider "Farstrider."

I want more "Magister" looks because they are the core of the Blood Elves. Farstriders are later additions, but Mages are the core of the Blood Elves. Blizzard even said they are addicted to magic and are a magical people and their civilization is based around arcane magic.

[Mace]

It was the second picture on google.. so I took that one
https://i.redd.it/4gih78aj58p21.png

Valtrois has the same glow and some of them have the arcane fingertips and differnt kind of runes, the variations are endless on the npcs, but I am sure you know that.

Oh thanks, I never noticed that. Maybe because my PC graphics didn't show that detail. thanks for the link. What I had in mind was more pronounced, and the effect I was suggesting for night elves wasn't that btw. Hope you realise.

Ouch Mace.. they always were the forest elves in wow we play, what you play in game is axactly that, with bits of priest/druid hoods.It wasn't until Cata when some highborne showed up.. and still even when you roll a mage you are still a night elf mage and not a highborne.
The era you are talking about are not the night elves you play in wow, which is explained ingame..

Last time I checked, night =/= forest, and they're kaldorei, children of the stars, not children of the woods. In the interview on their creation, they were making dark elves with a twist, the wood elf portion was the twist and they are meant to have the best half of the dark elves and the wood elves.

You just think they are forest elves because you haven't looked at them closely enough, most of the dark elf arcane side is off screen, but there is enough on screen to know that there is more to night elves than the forest. She'ndralar were in classic, and all the pre-sundering lore was already released by that time, with the WC3 manual itself kicking it off.

And even if it wasn't, let's say you don't believe me and reject classic, WotA trilogy and WC3 manual data or the arcane magic in Wc3 as lies or never happened. Cata happened, and they showed up there, they are still part of the night elves.

they don't have to have massive screen time though more would be nice, they are there, their scope is outlined and we know classic isn't updated, so we don't know how much they grew, we just see a lot more night elven caster npcs now than we did in cata - make of that what you will.

You are making it complicated for no reason, if I am saying normal tattoos, you have no idea what I mean? when you clearly talk about runic/fel tatsoos.

Just providing reasonable doubt. We don't know what the tattoos mean. But we can hope for arcane related ones. Or at the very least something that points to the arcane, like this for example.



The magical balls floating above his head? a bit like Kael'thas' 3 fireballs. they could really play around with this stuff too, have a star shower effect on the head/hair because of it and give you customisations that alter the colour and pattern of effect on the head.. that would boldly declare Highborne without any need for arcane tattoos. But I'd still appreciate arcane glowing tattoos too, who says arcane indicators have to be limited to one feature.. are forest indicators limited to one feature only?

- - - Updated - - -

I haven't been crying for more Farstrider looks as "Farstrider looks" is just extra blood elf looks because my Blood Elf Warlock could easily have features that you would consider "Farstrider."

I want more "Magister" looks because they are the core of the Blood Elves. Farstriders are later additions, but Mages are the core of the Blood Elves. Blizzard even said they are addicted to magic and are a magical people and their civilization is based around arcane magic.

but Farstriders and the Light are also cores of the Blood elves, what about people who want more htings to reflect either? You are part of the group that thinks only one thing is core to an elf race.

I am not, I recognise for night elves the arcane is core, but it's not the only core. I don't care if people think I'm only pushing for night elves to become a Highborne race - they can clearly see what I've written if they care to read - I am a truthseeker, and want what I read on night elves to be shown in game, because the written bits also captured my imagination, and I want them for the night elf race I read them belonging to. So no, it's not the same if they come but are given to the horde , my alliance night elf has to role horde to have that fantasy? after setting us up to take a side and stick to it? No way Jose

[Tanaria]

But the arcane is also a core in blood elf society.
Nobody can delete or remove what Blizzard said about them, when they first came in.

And the nelfs are just more into nature. Hell, the default night elf class is "Druid" and the default blood elf class is "Mage."

[Alanar]

It was thrown at our feet with kael being a mage firsthand and he was a hero.

Mages, priest, spellbreaker.

[Tanaria]

I don't know what his problem is with Blood Elf Mages and Blood Elf Casters in general.
It's as though he only sees them as "Farstriders" and that's it...completely ignoring what Blizzard have said about them, numerous times.

[Mace]

1. Playable and Unplayable Night Elves - Virtually every argument you make begins with the playable Night Elves, what you call the Darnassian night elves and most people rightly call just night elves in the same way one doesn't tie themselves in knots to specify that they don't mean the Holy Roman Empire, the GDR or the Vandal Tribes when speaking of modern Germany, are, by virtue of having the origin in the Kaldorei Empire the same entity, and that all themes and elements of said Empire flow into a single race. This is not the case - every argument made to push that premise is false. The Long Vigil was the state of things for 10k years, a much longer period than the empire and their time in the Alliance combined, with a drastically different demographic from the latter and consisted of a wholesale absence of arcane magic as practiced by mages from that society and their expulsion.

All correct, but when I refer to night elves, I am sometimes referring to the alliance aligned faction and sometimes the race as a whole. Context usually distinguishes which, but I do try to differentiate as much as possible for clarity sake by referring to the Daranssians or Alliance aligned faction. And the distinction is necessary because they're not always the same, especialy when I'm discussing them. Legion 7.0 had a lot of ni ght elfl ore and ativity but next to 0 alliance faction night elves involved - Tryande's journey in Val'Sharah, and Malfurion's fate the only 2 night elves related to that faction and they weren't their in the capacity of the faction, but as druid Shan'do and wife.

The Shen'dralar, Dath'remar's elves, the Demon Hunters and Nightborne were all absent from that society and so had zero effect on it. Indeed, the former two leaving was based entirely on the restrictions on magic and their refusal to change their lifestyle - a change that was not based, as you claim, on mere practicality, but an overall association of arcane and the imperial trappings as decadent and destructive. That's why despite Dath'remar and company having the runestones and being able to hide themselves from demons and the Shen'dralar only drawing in a demon by their own volition, they were still not wanted in that society and would have been executed for remaining in it - arcane as practiced by people, rather than the Moonwells and Well of Eternity were inherently disliked. Magic was itself inherently decadent. The Nightborne and Illidari are even more blatant cases - demon hunters were in prison for 10k years and are described as despised and suspicious, with none being part of night elf society and the Nightborne literally lived in a bubble, with the reaction to them by Tyrande being exactly what I describe - suspicion of their decadence and lack of moral fibre, not despite but because they were a snapshot of the old Empire that they in every aspect of behaviour were stepping away from.

Bolded parts are what I will comment on
1. Slight correction, the Shen'dralar didn't leave the long vigil community, they were never a part of it and were /lost forgotten, their magical activity successfully flying under the radar - presumably because they were smart and could hide it well from the Legion and their wild gods/dragons and folks in the north protecting the WEll - it's also fairly certain they were aware of events.

2. As person who's looked into this closely, you are inferring that association of the arcane was decadent. From all the evidence and lore of I've read, it was neither the arcane, wielding it or imperial trappings that were decadent, but the way/manner in which high society was using their magic. You can use magic impreaially and magnificently without being decadent, abusing it, reckless use which is dangerous or endangering, being friviouous and callously needlessly excessive - those are the problems of the society, not being imperioal, nor wielding the arcane.

3. Magic itself was never considered inherently decadent - I find no direct proof, nor an implied one, - it's more the love of money is root of all elvil" or "pabsolute power corrupts absolutely" syndrome at work here thatn magic itself being in herently evil. Players in classic wow era, made these assumptions when blizzard hadn't really revealed more of the nature of the arcane, and they did so based on twot hings, Malfurion's reaction to the decadence in society of which excessive addictive use of magic was the source of (not proper, responsible, wise use) and the fact that the night elves banned the use of magic. And they mixed the two without due diligence. Evidence exists to the contrary of that claim.

If magic is inherently decadent then the elves will have to believe they are a product of decadence, and magic in any form, even after the banning it for preventing the Legion's return was no longer necessary, would not be tolerated.. but every thing points the opposite way
'i) it's the arcane that forms and shapes the elves
ii) it's the arcane that boosts their lifespan, intelligence, stature, strength - none of this is decadent
iii) wielding the arcane causd them to achieve and do many good things
iv) they used said arcane energy in Moonwells to boost nature and the land - they wouldn't if they felt the arcane itself was decadent
v) After the L egion returns, they do not oppose, preach abarcane abstinence or hunt down/ban human, alliance mages, infact welcoming arcane strength in the battle of Mt Hyjal,a nd their priests calling down stars (a form of arcane magic themselves)
vi) they do not jjoin Malygos in his crusade to remove all magic from Azeroth - because this is not their philosophy.

They are aware the issue with the arcane is when their highest nobility caste chose to recklessly, in arrogance go way over board. Their problems with the arcane wasn't that the arcane was inherently occrupt or dcadent, it was because they got addicted. Azshara pushing relentlessly to unlock the secrets of the well, went too far, over using past safe or responsible levels, her pride and ego is the source of this not the arcane - we see many an accomplished mage and caster including Highborne able to be quite accomplished nad not sink to such a level - examples include the Farondis, the Moonguard ressitance, the Kirin'tor mages incl Khadgar, Jaina and others, many of the High elven mages. Draenei mages.

It is the Highborne the suspicion in WotLK is levied at, not arcane magic, presumably for their role, and we know not all Highborne wer guilty of the action and attitude of the leadership of the caste. The Farondis immediately rebelled and were the first tod o so, nearly succeeding in destroying the Well and preventing the whole catastrophe if they weren't betrayed by one of their own.

You have to choose to abandon wisdom and intelligence to not to see the particular case, and these are highly intelligent beings. Highly advanced. The information is not a retcon or recast either, it's actually evidenced in early material as far back as WC3 manual, WotA - later revelations do make what was vague clear in no uncertain terms, I am fully aware some of the older fans have not updated their lore with the new information and still carry the misconceptions of the earlier discussions.

I have at no point denied that the Kaldorei Empire was an extremely arcane society - that there are many, many night elf groups, both current (if you count Farondis as current since he's dead) and former (Moon Guard, Highborne etc.) to whom arcane and nature work in sync in exactly the fashion you suggest. Where I differ with you on, and why your premise is wrong is because despite all these branching groups finding separate societies that are either actively politically divided from the modern-day Night Elves on this basis (Nightborne/Blood Elves) or simply separate (Farondis, the one remaining Moon Guard mage, the Illidari), you only count the playable Darnassian night elves as a successor state of the Empire, when in fact, multiple aspects of it have found expression in multiple cultures. Including, to my chagrin, arcane magic through the reintroduced Shen'dralar, which was nevertheless done dubiously and not without backlash and which has an extremely small amount of relative importance and screen time, hence the focus of my next point. To whit, this is the same reason why I don't consider the wealth of druidry related stuff in Legion to be playable night elf lore and understand why you and @ravenmoon aren't very interested in it - it has the trappings of night elf-ery, but little focus on the race per se without any attempt to integrate it into the player experience.

It's not that I only count the playable Darnassian night elves as a successor state of the Empire, it's that I want to. I am fully aware they don't have to, and could develop elsewhere, but they're the group I like the most, and blizzard gave me a lot of hope in this regard when the largest living Highborne group was added to them, they lifted the restriction of arcane magic on themselves and the ban of the Highborne integrating with them, showing that they were coming together.

I would much prefer them to be the leading group that fully embodies all aspects of the kaldorei - but they don't have to, it could easily be they just remain after the Long vigil era phase, and the Highborne develop their own, the demon hunters their own, and they all exist as separate entities who together sum up the full range of the night elves. The way I like to imagine them is as separate entities that are allied to each other. They don't have to be controlled by one society.

They could be different communities nature that band together in tough times like the druid communities and night elf nation (led by priest) banded together for WC3, but are otherwise separate. That's how their segregation worked during the Long Vigil, that also had arcane communities, but they didn't join the WC3 effort.

2. Playable Night Elves and the Arcane - In the above I'm trying to tell you that the playable night elves and the unplayable entities constitute distinct entities, in the next, I'll address your claims of reintegration and spread of arcane magic in that society. For that purpose, I'm both acknowledging and dismissing Farondis, the Moon Guard, the Highborne society of yore and so forth. I will focus solely on the reintegrated Shen'dralar, their students and their relative screentime. This is because of what I described in the first paragraph - these groups are all night elves, and they're all arcane. Yet they're not part of the main playable night elf group and are respectively deceased, deceased except for one person and gone for 10k years whereupon they've split into two separate states in Quel'thalas and Suramar respectively. As such, the only applicable arcane night elf group are the Shen'dralar and those they taught, which are inarguably part.

If you mean the Moonguard by alive except for 1 person, that's incorrect, allt he Moonguard leaders survived and we had quests to rescue many of their acolytes trapped or undersieged

However while a few highborne became highe lves and are now a nation, - remember all high elf groups are a separate people of htier own, who's ororigin is from the ngiht elves, they are no more a continuation of the night elves as they are a continuation of the Highborne they are their own race of high class elf.

They don't replace night elven highborne because they're not night elven any longer, and the Night elven highborne still exist and are growing. Cataclysm lore has a few hundred of them (estimate) team up with the Darnassians and they attract old Darnassians former highborne into returning and new night elven arcane talents who they raise into their caste. Cataclysm sees more night elf students learning the arcane than any other discipline - this makes sense ofc, because night elves would still be generating people with enormous arcane talent being unchanged from the same race that produced the pre-sundering empire, and constantly suffused with the energies of the Well and Moonwells but not being allowed to develop their talent because of the ban. With it lifted, we would see many of the highest talented amongst them being recruited into the Highborne ranks, causing their numbers to grow, they would be larger than all the void elves, and possibly have similar numbers to blood elves and Nightborne - night elf is the bigger elven race.

Nightborne is different from the high elf sitituation, but effectively the same boat, in that the Nightborne are not night elven, but the difference is they can still be Highborne because the Nightborne so far are entirely based on the kaldorei pre-sundering culture of the Highborne wing. - unlike the Thalassians who have deviated enormously from their night roots, the Nightborne are still very much there, they are your typical subrace, , night elf people in night elven ways, just with a slightly altered body.

They do not replace the night elf or the highborne, they are instead just a different group of Highborne led/based night people who elves (i.e. night elves - yes the word is both a noun and an adjective but failure to distinguish correctly forces me to use alternate terms).

I am uninterested in arguing the competence of tehse parties, only their prominence. You won't see me going on about how blood elves are better at magic because of Azshara quests or whatever, since it's simply not a representative sample. Rather, that what it shows is that reintegration is slow. This is shown further by the paucity of NPCs and questlines that focus on this aspect. You say Druids and I can direct you to a whole patch about them. You say Wardens and I can point you to their Legion, Darkshore, Cataclysm roles. Sentinels? Everywhere. But night elf mage appearances are few and rarely focused on. In BFA alone, consider the wealth of focus put on Sentinels defending their land from the Horde, or later taking revenge on the Horde, along with druids and their respective leaders, compared to Mordent Evenshade, a let's face it, extremely shallow non-character and his one appearance. Wisps more consistently factor into playable night elf content than mages.

Actually considering all things, integration is a lot fast - but full integration may be much slower and never happen. we see a lot of night elves already on the battle front only after weeks of beginning to learn arcane magic, - that's fast man - the lorekeeprs are returned Highborne Darnassians, who've ben fighting gin other fields like druidism, but now using the arcane again (you can see they sometimes cast wrath balls), these are the ones who's knowledge is out of date and get exploited, afterall they've only been catching up for a few weeks in this timeline. It does show how quick the night elves were to come out to defend what was there from Garroshes invading horde.

But screentime isn't everything, it could be that it's implied in other works how they're treated or it's the subject of out of game information - once more not the case for playable night elf mages. You can speculate that huge numbers are being taught or that they're now reinvolved in whatever plots there might be, ditto that the night elves are reassessing their role towards them to view them positively. You could just as easily argue that given how Maiev and the Wardens going on a killing spree of them went completely unpunished and she's now in charge of her armies with nary a mention that nobody really gives a shit and considers them a fringe group of barely trustworthy participants. Indeed, their lack of screentime would make the latter more compelling evidence-wise. But both are pure speculation - they have no basis in the text. You have a hard time differentiating what you would like to happen, what might even make sense to happen with what has in fact happened. You operate from the conclusion - you've already decided that the playable night elves are intensely arcane, and work backwards from that point to push your points - that's why, even after being called out on bringing up that dev interview with the drow by multiple people, you responded to me, as you did to them, by simply doing your entire spiel verbatim a second time, bringing no new arguments to counter this. I suspect it's because you genuinely can't understand the point we're making - namely that you read the document in that fashion because you've already made your mind up and repeat yourself because you think we don't grasp the obvious rather than considering the opposite. This flows in turn to the issue of the wishlist of this entire project.

3. Elf Questing Content and Projection - A sizable focus and undercurrent of all of these topics is that the overlap of elves is not actually a downside - if anything, that there isn't enough overlap is the flaw. Much like with your reasoning for night elf mage integration being a combination of overstatement, a purposeful overlap of playable and unplayable night elf groups and an over-emphasis on arcane content and the overwhelming weight put on what constitute miniscule amounts of the total playable night elf quests. I don't think you're being disingenuous when you say that you genuinely believe that the Night Elf and Blood Elves are meant to fill the same niche. I think that you are so deep down the rabbit hole you can't look out. Where the arcane addiction and use of arcane elements is a recurring motif among the Blood Elves, as is their decadence, relationship with the Horde and so forth, 99% of playable night elf quests, whih is to say quests tied with the Darnassian faction of Night Elves, center on the defense of nature, the fighting of invaders and so forth. This extends even to 'neutral' content - in Cataclysm, the breach that produced the druids of the Flame was based not on magic, but on the Malfurion's lax behaviour towards the Horde and a feeling that the night elves were being let down by their choice in allies, Farondis' story, unlike the Nightborne one, has arcane as an incidental element, casually practiced, but ultimately about his personal relationship and dealing with death. There is simply a very, very sparse amount of quests that deal with the playable Night Elves' view of the arcane in their society. I brought up the Azshara quest before, but it's one of the only times we actually see such mages appear and even then, it's part of quest content for the Horde. It's a moment that characterizes the blood elf gimmick of arcane elves while undercutting these new elves. You don't see any of it as a Night Elf. Ditto the tonal change in Night Elf vs. Blood Elf involvement in Suramar, where the differences and similarities are emphasized respectively.

This is not an argument in favour of Horde Nightborne - to be entirely honest with you, I don't really like the Nightborne despite still liking night elves quite a bit and having liked blood elves before they were reverted to red high elves. I love the aesthetic, to be sure, its' well made, the quests are well crafted, but they are simply a redundant element of the setting - the story of reintegration of mages into night elves and how they handle it already ahd an angle with the Shen'dralar, the Horde already had arcane elves in the blood elves, with a functionally identical backstory, niche and even plot pertaining to the Legion. I'd have preferred for them to, were they to exist, remain neutral, because while they'd arguably have more of a story in the Alliance than the Horde, they would always be doing something another race already can. Rather I bring them up because far from Blizzrad having a grand design regarding the reintroduction of arcane to the night elves, every single time they've had the chance to show playable night elves interact with arcane magic using elves, there is either simply nothing there or there is hostility. Not hostility to the point of war, since they're generally not that kind of people, but cultural distance and alienation. Which leads neatly into the last part I'd like to address, which is the purpose of races in the game in general and the importance of definition and variety.

4. Conflict, Variety and Racial Identity - I've told you and ravenmoon several times that you're more Highborne fans than Night elf fans, and while I stand by that, I think the bigger issue and what is likely closer to the truth is that you are simply elf fans in general, and while to different degrees, you like all aspects of elves and consider the night elves to be progenitor elves that should have all these traits. While in the above three I've explained how that's simply not born out by the game, here I'm addressing how that goal is antithetical to the purpose of the game and the enabling of conflict, as well to cultural variety.

I've often seen you bring up the Zandalari vis a vis Darkspear and other trolls, to get across what you're after - a gestalt entity holding all racial aspects. That is, to whit, my greatest problem with the Zandalari - by existing, they nullify one of the main playable races, because they subsume most of its aspects. That is why I hope that future stories will emphasize the differences and separation - in the troll case - that being an established, if decaying empire with a strict caste system and monarchy, opulent and rich compared to the more savage, down to earth approach of the Darkspear, and in turn how these things address other matters - like how Bwonsamdi is viewed skeptically by the Zandalari, but is liked by the Darkspear, and how anyone with enouhg competence can rise in one tribe while another has a more strict division. Ditto, having Darkspear appear more in subtler roles while the Zandalari have their grandeur in proper formations. What I'm getting at here is that more is sometimes less - and more is definitely less when it's based around undermining aspects of other races or its own race. Bringing that to the night elves and other elves, you can already see what I'm getting at with the Nightborne and Blood Elves. The two have a lot in common - too much, in fact, because they are interchangable in just about any story except ones about the Light, grievances with the Alliance, Horde, Legion or so forth, where the blood elves have more going for them. The Nightborne are low-rent blood elves, and to function, they need to take over the arcane niche, which leaves one race with less, and another race superfluous since the aspect it's been grafted onto could easily be given to someone else and thus leave more room to focus on that character.

Multiply this by a thousand in a case where the Night Elves have all aspects of the Kaldorei Empire and every splinter group we've seen hanging around, as well as its cousin states. The Nightborne would remain pointless in such a setup, whereas the blood elves would be a palette swap who remain on the wrong faction, but it's the night elves themselves who'd lose out the most. Warcraft is not a game of extremely internal cultures - rather, cultures are blocs where certain aspects all match. The Draenor Orc Clans are a sign of this done right - they're all recognizably orcs who's gimmicks are spins on core orcish values and positions. The playable night elves have this - the priesthood of Elune, the sentinels, wardens, their ties with the ancients, and to my personal chagrin, but your approval, the arcane reintegration. Through their variety they enable more internal and external stories and points of conflict, but they don't step on the toes of any other race. This would not be the case for a hypothetical Kaldorei Empire - for one, the bulk of current night elf content, focused on sentinels and nature and the like would, by your own admission, fall to the wayside. You don't want playable night elves to be forest elves, but disregarding that that is the niche they exist to fill and as emphasized above constitutes just about every aspect of their content, the focus away from that towards other aspects taht are already covered elsewhere, be it religiosity in blood elves, arcane with Nightborne or what have you would not produce any new stories. All those stories can already be told. But other stories - stories based on friction and cultural incompatibility leading to conflict, which is the crux of the game, could not be told. You can no longer have night elves taking issue with arcane use, or at least in no fashion different from what blood elves and nightborne can already do by taking issue with irresponsibility, but not the core choices that they already hold.

The preservation of nature as such, the nightly predator aspect would also be pushed into the forefront in favor of stories that already exist. You can alraedy see how much of the night elf function, much like the Horde pre-Cataclysm, had its races overlap culturally and functionally, to the point where a tauren was often an objectively worse story choice to include than an orc, because an orc had far more story tied up with that issue. The same will be true of night elves and their adjoining races. Less is often more - the elements not part of a race and that in trun bring it into conflict with other races are crucial to defining it - a group that is everything is in turn nothing. A story route that limits the overall amount of stories that can be told - as such a story inevitably would, much like an undifferentiated Zandalari and Darkspear is one that should not be taken.

To conclude - variety, difference and gaps in any race are essential. The past as characterization of the present is fine, but the two aren't the same, wishful thinking and speculation - even interesting speculation of the kind you've produced isn't evidence, but changes that seek to reduce racial difference and deemphasize the main value of the races as products are inherently bad.

To be continued