Why is Taurajo seen as unjustified?

[Specialka]

He is the leader of his people and their well-being should be his top priority, which is why he is such a crappy leader, who the hell cares if his personal honor is besmirched, if it means saving hundreds of tauren lives? His people matter, not his conviction. He should act in their interest, heck baine would have been relatable, if he had seen the death toll among his people and knowing he can't beat Sylvanas outright resorts to assassination attempts, through the most shadiest shit possible, instead he risks everything for a damn proudmoore.

Ok so according to you, Sylvanas is an awful leader since she does not care about her people at all. Am I getting that right ?

[Raisei]

I think this is actually the same thread, that or all these Baine threads are the same since we keep arguing the same shit endlessly. I'll check after I've finished this reply and I'll let you know if I've suffered an existential crisis.

That is quite possible, stuff just blends together after some time and dozens of threads. It's the content and story draught. We need new input to find new stuff to discuss.

Anyway, regarding Baine acting out of a sense of honor and obligation - that is the story intent and that is how you can read his actions, but because of the way the story is constructed, that doesn't carry through. As I've talked over with Powerogue and others as well, you can't infer a character's stance on something outside his presence, put another way, we can't actually say that Baine was okay with the Burning or with the melting of his tauren at the walls of Lordaeron. What we can however say is that whatever his reaction to those things it was not of sufficient size to produce outcry or merit notice, as compared to what does bring him to do something, that being what happens with Derek.

Yes, I agree it is a mistake in the story's flow to have Baine's presence be minimal at first and only have him act at that specific time. My only explanation is that he has been silently fuming all the time, being disgusted with what is happening but he yet weighs the lives of his people higher then his misgivings, especially since Sylvanas has already given him a stern warning.
Also he was unable to affect the things that happened before. He was not at Teldrassil, he could not stop the blight use at Lordaeron, but the Derek case he could actually do something about.
He is literally choosing the hill he is dying on and picks not those atrocities that are over and done but the one he can still affect. I appreciate that it is from a Horde perspective very difficult to seperate the name Proudmore from his action, but I really do not think it matters much (it would be dishonest to say it doesn't matter at all but it is not as central as people think).
But yes, this is infering a lot from his silence, which is definately the writers' fault. An event like Teldrassil needed more reaction, there should have been a war council scene in Orgrimmar, where the various leaders get to voice their thought and Sylvanas overrules them with an explanation and threat. It's probably a sign that the writers were not yet prepared to tell a story with such heavy implications.

More than that, 'No life is worth living unless we're true to ourselves' is an incredibly selfish sentiment when you stop and think about it. It's essentially 'Do as you will'. It's morally vacuous. Baine even gets called out by Lor'themar where Lor'themar is happy with Baine's personal courage, but worries what might happen to the tauren now that he took that step, since Baine isn't just an independent party, but he is responsible for a race of people and his kindness towards Derek put them at risk. Now, we know that the tauren aren't actually harmed, but that's because, up until Baine sets up shop in Thunder Bluff no tauren lifted a finger to help him or agree with him. And why would they? He didn't act in their favour - he acted to satisfy his own sense of righteousness. Compare and contrast that with Saurfang, who, after he begins his journey with an extremely similar mindset, down to taking the Horde and the character set up as his surrogate son as viable collateral on the off-chance Anduin might defeat Sylvanas, ultimately takes a step that puts only his own life in danger in order to rescue others when his story comes full circle at the gates of Orgrimmar.

Absolutely. It is selfish and he is quite clearly misreading what is important for the Horde (at least the playerbase, in-game Horde still seems fine with him) and forces his view of the importance of honor onto others with the risk that not only he but his people will pay the price. This is the kind of critique I can completely understand. None of this makes him an Alliance lapdop though, he is just stuck in his ways, believes in a Horde that does no longer exist and is absolutely ready to kill and die to cling to this notion.
Saurfang at first seems to be the same, but then he surprises us by grasping his error and correcting it by not just clinging desperately to a dead idea, but by reviving it and all with just sacrificing his own life. Between the two, there is no contest who is doing better for the Horde.

Baine consistently acts like someone abstracted from his role as leader of a people participating in a war and as a member of a state at war. He instead takes actions that are good for his friends or that feel nice, consequences be damned. This isn't just when it comes to the Alliance, though because his friends are there it's overwhelmingly in that direction - it's a general thing that influences every decision. It's part of his choice to give food to the quillboar, because his dad couldn't do it but he knows better and his dad just didn't try hard enough, it's part of his choice to decide to trust Saurfang on the War of Thorns because he has a personal faith in him, despite knowing that Saurfang is selling him a line of bullcrap there and it even extends to how he helps the loyalists after the conflict wraps up - it feels nice to help, so he does. Is that the character they've tried to produce? No, but that is what they've made and what his actions are. And that's also why I wholesale reject the idea that he's acting out of any allegiance to a Horde-style honor - he is, by his own admission, acting out of personal reasons.

All true and I am not disagreeing. He is in his own views very radical and has a need to be liked by people. That makes him a very bad leader, he believes he is acting for his people but he is really not. Garrosh's trial is another point where we can see this and Voljin quite literally appoints him as defender for just this reason. Everyone else would have let Tyrande win to see Garrosh fry, but Baine's honor prevents him from doing this, we can even say it binds him to this task and forces him to actually make very strong points against the wishes of all his people (in some instances even embarassing and insulting his allies and friends) just so he can say that he acted with honor.
While I still consider the genocidal psycho zombie as an objectively worse person, Baine's fixation on honor makes him nearly as selfish as she is. "I will set us all free" vs. "I will bring back honor no matter the cost" basically.

So yes, I don't at all think he is the perfect character, but if we critize him then I want to do it for the right reasons and that is not "being Anduin's pet", "being a coward" or "acting only because Jaina's brother".

[Mehrunes]

Not to mention those tauren were exiling their basic rights as given to them by the Blood Oath of the Horde, that the writers of Cataclysm intended Baine himself to support them and that the only people they attacked were invading heavily armed soldiers and unrepentant warcriminals.

But

As you can see here, Baine's supporters are such fanatical Horde haters they think defending your people from invading criminals makes you a warmonger. If there's any double-standard, its on Powerogue's end.

Oh, and there's one more thing that I forgot to mention (though I'm pretty sure @Super Dickmann did, though maybe I'm thinking about another recent thread): the "revenge for Taurajo" camp that was exiled by Baine for only wanting revenge received the same punishment from him as the Grimtotem that rose up against him in Magatha's coup. Baine treated people merely offending his Alliance sycophancy in the exact same way he treated traitors to Thunder Bluff. Making the attempts to vindicate Baine here all the more hilarious.

Well, he isn't and it does as by the canon lore, since he is now part of the ruling council of the Horde. And he personally safed all those little Banshee Loyalists from being Outcasts (no clue why, they will stab him in the back first chance they get). Not to mention that his contribution is one of the reasons the Horde still exists at all.

But whatever, the hate for this guy is so strong, that you folks are barely coherent by now so you are willfully ignoring these facts and consider Sylvanas, a mass murdering psychopathic zombie that wanted to kill you all, as the lesser evil. The mental gymnastics you have to do for that are just beyond me.

*Accuses others of mental gymnastics* *Treats Baine's status as of post-BfA as evidence as to why he wasn't a traitor back in Cata (you know, because the context here is his position from that time period)* Fascinating train of thought you got here as usual.

On this point we have to keep disagreeing. As I pointed out in the other thread what Baine does is guided by his believe in honor not because of him being on the Alliance's side. He considers the Horde's honor more important then it's lives, even the lives of his own people. He is spelling this out in the Theramore cinematic when Jaina warns him that Sylvanas will kill him for this. "No life is worth living if we cannot be true to ourselves."
This is the reason behind all of this. He just wants to live his life with honor, a quality that the Horde (as an Orc dominated organisation) SAYS it aspires to as well. The problem is that it has repeatedly betrayed this notion (as Saurfang realizes) and left people that want to adhere to it behind. Baine is trying to keep this notion alive by trying to prevent the Horde to sink deeper and deeper.

That's why he merrily ignores scores of Blighted Tauren, yet instantly loses his shit - to the point of going on a murder spree against members of the Horde he supposedly cares so much about - the instant the brother of his human totally-not-master is in jeopardy.

[FuxieDK]

Well, he isn't and it does as by the canon lore

So Lorewise he cannot be a traitor, even though he committed treason?
Blizzard fuckes their own lore sideways, every day that goes by.

When you conspire with the enemy, in secret, or in open defiance, then you are committing text book treason. There is no other way to put it. PERIOD!
This is EXACTLY what Varok Saurfang and Baine did.

[Raisei]

*Accuses others of mental gymnastics* *Treats Baine's status as of post-BfA as evidence as to why he wasn't a traitor back in Cata (you know, because the context here is his position from that time period)* Fascinating train of thought you got here as usual.
That's why he merrily ignores scores of Blighted Tauren, yet instantly loses his shit - to the point of going on a murder spree against members of the Horde he supposedly cares so much about - the instant the brother of his human totally-not-master is in jeopardy.

Had enough childish non-arguments from Syegfryed to last me a week or two, so I will just keep ignoring you. Have a nice day.

Infracted.

He is the leader of his people and their well-being should be his top priority, which is why he is such a crappy leader, who the hell cares if his personal honor is besmirched, if it means saving hundreds of tauren lives? His people matter, not his conviction. He should act in their interest, heck baine would have been relatable, if he had seen the death toll among his people and knowing he can't beat Sylvanas outright resorts to assassination attempts, through the most shadiest shit possible, instead he risks everything for a damn proudmoore.

As you will see in my most recent post, I agree with this, except for the part that it was "for a damn proudmoore", because that is close to irrelevant. His conviction and him prioritizing it over the lives of his people is the problem and a clear reason to criticise him.

[Specialka]

So Lorewise he cannot be a traitor, even though he committed treason?
Blizzard fuckes their own lore sideways, every day that goes by.

When you conspire with the enemy, in secret, or in open defiance, then you are committing text book treason. There is no other way to put it. PERIOD!
This is EXACTLY what Varok Saurfang and Baine did.

Ho, they are treators to the Sylvanas's Horde but who cares ?

[FuxieDK]

Ho, they are treators to the Sylvanas's Horde but who cares ?

Sylvanas Horde IS The Horde. it is the only legitimate Horde. Sylvanas was appointed by a dying Vol'jin, she dien't Coup d'Etat the possition.

[Specialka]

Sylvanas Horde IS The Horde. it is the only legitimate Horde. Sylvanas was appointed by a dying Vol'jin, she dien't Coup d'Etat the possition.

If a president get elected or a monarch chosen, then proceed to genocide ppl, wage war for the sake of it, etc... You would blame ppl that would rebel against such a person ?

[FuxieDK]

If a president get elected or a monarch chosen, then proceed to genocide ppl, wage war for the sake of it, etc... You would blame ppl that would rebel against such a person ?

Rebel, yes.
Go through proper channels to get said person overthrown, no.

[Specialka]

Rebel, yes.
Go through proper channels to get said person overthrown, no.

You do realize that against such a person, going through proper channels = death as you would never be able to reach her ?

[Aucald]

Rebel, yes.
Go through proper channels to get said person overthrown, no.

I don't think there are "proper channels" one can navigate when one's leader(s) and the bureaucracy surrounding them is essentially broken.

[Super Dickmann]

Yes, I agree it is a mistake in the story's flow to have Baine's presence be minimal at first and only have him act at that specific time. My only explanation is that he has been silently fuming all the time, being disgusted with what is happening but he yet weighs the lives of his people higher then his misgivings, especially since Sylvanas has already given him a stern warning.
Also he was unable to affect the things that happened before. He was not at Teldrassil, he could not stop the blight use at Lordaeron, but the Derek case he could actually do something about.
He is literally choosing the hill he is dying on and picks not those atrocities that are over and done but the one he can still affect. I appreciate that it is from a Horde perspective very difficult to seperate the name Proudmore from his action, but I really do not think it matters much (it would be dishonest to say it doesn't matter at all but it is not as central as people think).
But yes, this is infering a lot from his silence, which is definately the writers' fault. An event like Teldrassil needed more reaction, there should have been a war council scene in Orgrimmar, where the various leaders get to voice their thought and Sylvanas overrules them with an explanation and threat. It's probably a sign that the writers were not yet prepared to tell a story with such heavy implications.

There's two counts here that matter - the first is that Baine's role in BFA in particular is precisely because where he appears and what he takes issue with are so grossly disproportionate to what goes on. One can make the case that he wasn't in a position to stop Teldrassil's burning or to raising of tauren. But he doesn't - what he takes issue with are Saurfang being left behind, which he does of his own free will, and with Derek. I won't be bothering to explain Baine being procedurally in the wrong in the Derek situation - a thousand people have done so and they're right. I've repeatedly made the case instead that Baine is morally wrong to intervene and that the act itself is vastly overblown because it happens to a named character and a Proudmoore at that. Baine is, in the same location where he takes a stand over free will about two minutes walk away from a mine where human farmers were enslaved to dig in a mine, not under Forsaken oversight. Down the beach from where he's at Mag'har suck the souls out of fallen footmen. Were he to have looked out of the window in his time in Zandalar, which to be fair we can assume he didn't given his total lack of knowledge on the vulpera, he'd have seen void elves cast diplomats into the void to burn in hell forever. The Horde have practiced slavery and necromancy for ages and the acts described above are either equal to or worse than what happens to Derek.

Even if we however suppose that none of these acts are aware to Baine or that he doesn't have the ability to act on them despite being right there, and we set aside the Derek business as being the first time he can intervene. Let us also pretend Baine's actions have no larger implications on the people he's responsible for. Suppose a general in your home state of A pulled a pump action shotgun and with a guy who'd recently defected from a State B went onto a military vessel to bust out a man under inhumane torture who'd give intel to allow an attack on his family - family that are vital for the war effort against State B. This will be cast in the media as having been willing treachery to demoralize the people of State B. Said general uses his shotgun to execute three officers keeping said prisoner under lock and key as well as those committed to guarding this prisoner. He spares only those who ditch their posts and flee after they've been beaten down enough. He then frees the prisoner and delivers him to said family. How many people would genuinely think that general is justified? How long do you figure before he ends up decorating the rafters? The robbing of someone's free will is an inferior crime to murder, since murder takes away your ability to act for good going forward, and the lives of those who you're tied to are worth uncountably more in war than those of the group you're fighting. And the Derek situation is the most defensible action Baine takes, because it's directed against Sylvanas for something she is actually basically solely responsible for, with the consequences for his race being secondary, which leads us to...

Absolutely. It is selfish and he is quite clearly misreading what is important for the Horde (at least the playerbase, in-game Horde still seems fine with him) and forces his view of the importance of honor onto others with the risk that not only he but his people will pay the price. This is the kind of critique I can completely understand. None of this makes him an Alliance lapdop though, he is just stuck in his ways, believes in a Horde that does no longer exist and is absolutely ready to kill and die to cling to this notion.
Saurfang at first seems to be the same, but then he surprises us by grasping his error and correcting it by not just clinging desperately to a dead idea, but by reviving it and all with just sacrificing his own life. Between the two, there is no contest who is doing better for the Horde.

What makes him an Alliance lapdog is that, intentional or not, whenever there's a choice of whether to benefit his own group or the Alliance, he will aid the latter, even when such is to the detriment of his own race. The Taurajo situation, tipping off Jaina with Theramore, the business with Derek, mailing parts of his body to Anduin and so forth. It's not even so much the Alliance per se as it is humans he's friends with. Because Blizzard doesn't depict him having any opinion on things like Theramore, pretty much anything the R.A.S has ever done or really anything done in BFA, as well as no reaction to actual harm done to tauren, like the thing in Lordaeron or their involvement in a war he could have a case is to their detriment, as well as the fact that he took anti-tauren actions irrespective of Alliance involvement with the quillboar, his characterization is accurate. He killed to get Derek delivered to Jaina, knowing it'd put his people in the crosshairs. He did not kill when his people were firebombed by the Alliance, had their gate attacked, were preyed upon by savages and so on. Hence his popular characterization that he cares about the Proudmoores and Wrynns far more than he does about his people or morality in general. It genuinely has more explanatory power than if you try to read the character as he's presented at face value. A person who reads Baine at face value might wonder why he never mentions Teldrassil but goes ham on randoms. A person who uses the Baine as unrequited lover of blonde boys narrative knows it's because the purple man is meaningless to him, but Derek is the sibling of a human.

All true and I am not disagreeing. He is in his own views very radical and has a need to be liked by people. That makes him a very bad leader, he believes he is acting for his people but he is really not. Garrosh's trial is another point where we can see this and Voljin quite literally appoints him as defender for just this reason. Everyone else would have let Tyrande win to see Garrosh fry, but Baine's honor prevents him from doing this, we can even say it binds him to this task and forces him to actually make very strong points against the wishes of all his people (in some instances even embarassing and insulting his allies and friends) just so he can say that he acted with honor.
While I still consider the genocidal psycho zombie as an objectively worse person, Baine's fixation on honor makes him nearly as selfish as she is. "I will set us all free" vs. "I will bring back honor no matter the cost" basically.

This is another point where I disagree, the "I will bring back honor as I see it no matter what" character is Saurfang. Saurfang is the one to team up with Anduin and purposefully fail a hit going for him in the Siege of Lordaeron to ditch Sylvanas subversively. He's the one who has a set view of what the Horde is and his story is about struggling with this and his own hypocrisy, culminating in how he opts to die, in a fashion that's at once orcish and Horde in its means and actually tries to avoid lives. The way this story was done, its follow up and its implications are thoroughly wretched and I've spent no shortage of it writing there, but that is his story. But it's not Baine's story - Baine does not work to restore the Horde's honor. He talks about it sure, but when he does take action it's for himself. Baine had to be talked into being Garrosh's representative, which he did a good job of, but he didn't want to do it. Left to his own devices, in non-faction war expansions, Baine does very little. And when he's in a position to recruit for the Horde, he manages poorly and discounts folks like the vulpera, which, opposing furries aside, he should have a lot of knowledge of as well as be able to liken to his own people's situation.

War Crimes does give another picture of Baine, especially the alternate universe version of him, his interaction with Sylvanas re: the bootlicking comment and so forth, but this post is already too long, so I'll save a wishful thinking over-analysis of Baine for another post/topic.

@Mehrunes

Yeah, that's from me.

[FuxieDK]

I don't think there are "proper channels" one can navigate when one's leader(s) and the bureaucracy surrounding them is essentially broken.

The irony is so great, seeing you are from USofA..

Arent you going through EXACTLY the same thing, where people are trying to impeach the president?

[Aucald]

The irony is so great, seeing you are from USofA..

Arent you going through EXACTLY the same thing, where people are trying to impeach the president?

This isn't really the place for discussing real-world politics and other divisive topics - I prefer to keep the discussion grounded in the fantasy context of WoW's politics.

[Mehrunes]

As you will see in my most recent post, I agree with this, except for the part that it was "for a damn proudmoore", because that is close to irrelevant. His conviction and him prioritizing it over the lives of his people is the problem and a clear reason to criticise him.

How is that "close to irrelevant"? That's the key part of what Baine's convictions really are and the point about how Baine is acting in favor of the Alliance that you keep trying to deny.

I don't think there are "proper channels" one can navigate when one's leader(s) and the bureaucracy surrounding them is essentially broken.

The Horde has Mak'gora precisely for that reason. There's nothing indicating Baine didn't pursue it because he thought the system to be broken. More than likely he didn't do so simply out of cowardice. Even Thrall was all like "you can't win so why bother" to Saurfang, when not only is Thrall more courageous than Baine in general, but it wasn't even his life on the line in that case.

Yeah, that's from me.

Ah, no, I knew it was you for sure. I just wasn't sure if you posted it in this thread or not. I just phrased that poorly.

[Aucald]

The Horde has Mak'gora precisely for that reason. There's nothing indicating Baine didn't pursue it because he thought the system to be broken. More than likely he didn't do so simply out of cowardice.

We both know Mak'gora has no real way of assuring true or objective legitimacy - Baine could very well have challenged Sylvanas to Mak'gora, been defeated by her, and Sylvanas would remain objectively corrupt and in control of the Horde. "Might makes right" doesn't generally pan out well when the "mighty" is a tyrant, unless one also subscribes to the divine right of kings or some such.

[Specialka]

How is that "close to irrelevant"? That's the key part of what Baine's convictions really are and the point about how Baine is acting in favor of the Alliance that you keep trying to deny.




The Horde has Mak'gora precisely for that reason. There's nothing indicating Baine didn't pursue it because he thought the system to be broken. More than likely he didn't do so simply out of cowardice. Even Thrall was all like "you can't win so why bother" to Saurfang, when not only is Thrall more courageous than Baine in general, but it wasn't even his life on the line in that case.




Ah, no, I knew it was you for sure. I just wasn't sure if you posted it in this thread or not. I just phrased that poorly.

I guess those he exiled where cowards as well since they could have challenged him as well.

And Baine does not act for the Alliance because he prefers the Alliance more. He acts for the Alliance because the Horde under Sylvanas rules was hurting the Earth Mother, simple as that. Baine is not a warmonger, he is a peacemonger I would say.

[Mehrunes]

We both know Mak'gora has no real way of assuring true or objective legitimacy - Baine could very well have challenged Sylvanas to Mak'gora, been defeated by her, and Sylvanas would remain objectively corrupt and in control of the Horde. "Might makes right" doesn't generally pan out well when the "mighty" is a tyrant, unless one also subscribes to the divine right of kings or some such.

That's the system working as intended though. That Baine is a cowardly twerp with no chance of winning or that Sylvanas would remain "objectively corrupt" is inconsequential to whether the proper channels existed or not. Unless you consider the channels to be proper only if they are 100% guaranteed to work whenever one wants them to, but that's a rather objectionable position. Setting things up this way would only lead to anarchy.

[Aucald]

That's the system working as intended though. That Baine is a cowardly twerp with no chance of winning or that Sylvanas would remain "objectively corrupt" is inconsequential to whether the proper channels existed or not. Unless you consider the channels to be proper only if they are 100% guaranteed to work whenever one wants them to, but that's a rather objectionable position. Setting things up this way would only lead to anarchy.

Hence the reference to broken systems, yes. It remains that no one could actually remove a corrupt leader like Sylvanas from power - there were no "legitimate" means to do so in the Horde's previous political structure. Mak'gora couldn't work, because Sylvanas couldn't conceivably be beaten in her empowered state, and would still have been corrupt as the "victor" of said challenge. The system, such as it was, was broken.

A system that allows a corrupt ruler to remain in place despite their corruption is not really a system that is "working as intended" unless corruption itself fully normalized as part of governance. That's not a great way for things to be on an objective level, at least from the perspective of the people living in said system.

[Super Dickmann]

I guess those he exiled where cowards as well since they could have challenged him as well.

And Baine does not act for the Alliance because he prefers the Alliance more. He acts for the Alliance because the Horde under Sylvanas rules was hurting the Earth Mother, simple as that. Baine is not a warmonger, he is a peacemonger I would say.

The last part is actually objectively wrong (so is the first part since he does prefer the Alliance by his record). We know that the Earth Mother is gung-ho for the faction war because in the 8.1.5 leatherworking quest, at the same time as Baine gets sent to the slammer for going on a killing spree a tauren who's still assmad about Taurajo beseeches the Earthmother to bless his war drums for the express purpose of killing the Alliance and she does so.

Ergo, Baine isn't just a quisling, he's an infidel.