"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[klogaroth]

It being a broad category is irrelevant. WoW is still in it by default. I think even regular Pokemon is a RPG.

Just because Billy-bob dislikes timegates it doesn't stop WoW from being a RPG.

It being such a broad category is of huge revelance, because it means it does bascially nothing to inform design. Has RPG elements could mean that WoW should focus on its first person gunplay. Or its complex series of consequences from conversations with NPCs. Or the accuracy of its database of football players. Or its epic space battles.

Having RPG elements doesn't carry enough specificity to make design decisions for WoW. For any game.

It's part of a larger problem of how games are classified by their systems, rather than the core reason players play them.

To give an example from films - Pretty Woman, Blues Brothers, and Die Hard all have scenes with cars in them. We don't define them as "movies with cars", and go to the cinema to see the latest "films with cars in them". We look at romance, comedy, action.

If you made decisions as to what happened in any other medium based on the presence of a particular element, rather than choosing the elements based on the theme and purpose of the work as a whole, you would be laughed out of the room.

[Krakan]

Different narrative outcomes aren't a prerequisite of classifying something as a RPG.

And even yet, you had a different campaign depending on your class in Legion, and a very different story depending on your faction or even race depending on which character you chose to interpret. Doesn't change the end result, but the campaign is different.

It's pretty minor and a example of once in 15 years...

Wow isn't a game that supports this style of play not with its seasaw balance changes. Blizz is going to try and force it and we will see how committed they are but I cant see this in ending in anyway beyond all of one spec much less class rocking the same covenant barring rare outliners.

I wish blizzard stuck to what they are good at...that being group content. All these wacky progression systems always fall flat.

[A Chozo]

Having RPG elements doesn't carry enough specificity to make design decisions for WoW. For any game.

Of course it does.

WoW focus is on Role-playing. There's a small dedicated community that focus on gameplay, but that isn't what this game is about, and the more it distances itself from it's RPG nature, the worse. Players have complained about that for ages.

Now that the devs finally make their mission to strengthen the base of this RPG, suddenly it's a problem.

They will never abandon the RPG root and spine of WoW just because some players want this to be "Raids of Warcraft" and ignore all the RPG aspects.

[Good ol Stroggylos]

I am planning to have a good laugh when in a couple of months during beta they are going to cancel the tons of theory and feelcrafting by stating that the mobility abilities will be available in open world only.

[Frolk]

I am planning to have a good laugh when in a couple of months during beta they are going to cancel the tons of theory and feelcrafting by stating that the mobility abilities will be available in open world only.

By making it "open world" only, then they will have wasted A LOT of time and money on something 100% useless and should just have scrapped it if that is the end result.

[A Chozo]

I am planning to have a good laugh when in a couple of months during beta they are going to cancel the tons of theory and feelcrafting by stating that the mobility abilities will be available in open world only.

Oh god that would be so lame.

It would feel way less World of Warcraft if they did that. Instances would feel like a weird minigame without the big-ass Covenant stuff.

[klogaroth]

Of course it does.

WoW focus is on Role-playing. There's a small dedicated community that focus on gameplay, but that isn't what this game is about, and the more it distances itself from it's RPG nature, the worse. Players have complained about that for ages.

Now that the devs finally make their mission to strengthen the base of this RPG, suddenly it's a problem.

They will never abandon the RPG root and spine of WoW just because some players want this to be "Raids of Warcraft" and ignore all the RPG aspects.

What you mean is "games with stats" not RPGs.

You can tell that WoW is not at its core a role playing game because there are special servers labelled role playing, that are for the group of players who do want to use WoW for role playing. Role playing is something you can do in the game, not what the game is about.

MMO is a step in the right direction for defining WoW, as one of the core reasons people go to WoW is to be in a world with many different people to interact with. Fantasy MMO if you want, due to the theme of orcs, and elves, and dragons and all that. Role playing though? Are most players really embodying a character, and making decisions as if they were that character?

Or is it the case that the game just happens to share a number of elements with games where people do go to that game to embody a character? People go to D&D to role play. D&D has stats that allow for interesting and fun things to happen while play that role, sometimes they can help choose the role you're going to play. The stats are there to enhance the role playing, they aren't the playing of the role itself.

While some people do come to WoW to play a role, it's not the core reason behind the game's existence, otherwise it'd be a very different game. At the core, WoW is about cooperating and competing with other players in an established world. You're not there to shape the world, it's not a sandbox type game. You're there to team up and fight monsters or other players.

The stats and progression systems in the game that allow that play to occur should be informed by it. Systems need to be designed with the fact that there are lots of other people, and that those people are the entire reason for this type of game to exist. Otherwise Blizzard would have made a single player game. If it was at its core a role playing game you would have far more impact on the world to tell your own story. As it is, the world continues on without or without you. Whatever your character does, Sylvanas destroys the Helm of Domination. Even if you've killed her hundreds of times going back to when she was stood next to Varimathras.

[A Chozo]

What you mean is "games with stats" not RPGs.

You can tell that WoW is not at its core a role playing game because there are special servers labelled role playing, that are for the group of players who do want to use WoW for role playing. Role playing is something you can do in the game, not what the game is about.

WoW at it's core is a role-playing game.

You can play a Final Fantasy just for the gameplay, but it's still a RPG. Similar to WoW. The RPG servers have a rule set to keep the non-roleplayers from messing with role play sessions.

The game has a focus on role-playing you liking it or not, which is why it's a RPG. The endgame of WoW can have a focus on co-op or vs / competitive but this isn't the focus of this game. It never has been.

It's kinda pointless to continue discussing this if you don't even know the basic premise of World of Warcraft. It's still a game where you play as a adventurer on the World... of Warcraft. It's focused on that.

I hope you understand it.

[klogaroth]

WoW at it's core is a role-playing game.

You can play a Final Fantasy just for the gameplay, but it's still a RPG. Similar to WoW. The RPG servers have a rule set to keep the non-roleplayers from messing with role play sessions.

The game has a focus on role-playing you liking it or not, which is why it's a RPG. The endgame of WoW can have a focus on co-op or vs / competitive but this isn't the focus of this game. It never has been.

It's kinda pointless to continue discussing this if you don't even know the basic premise of World of Warcraft. It's still a game where you play as a adventurer on the World... of Warcraft. It's focused on that.

I hope you understand it.

The reason to play WoW is very different to the reason to play the single player Final Fantasy games. In Final Fantasy you experience the story of a character. The story is paramount. It's also why in games like Final Fantasy you will notice that you are a very specific character. You are Cloud, for example. In WoW the massively multiplayer nature is paramount. The story exists to give reason to play with other people. It is secondary to the core of the game. As are the systems of WoW. Those are there to enable cooperation and competition with other players.

[A Chozo]

The reason to play WoW is very different to the reason to play the single player Final Fantasy games.

That's on you, buddy. Doesn't make WoW less of a RPG just because you ignore the RPG nature of the game.

[klogaroth]

That's on you, buddy. Doesn't make WoW less of a RPG just because you ignore the RPG nature of the game.

That's on you if you can't tell the difference between an MMO and a single player plot driven game.

[VinceVega]

Of course it does.

WoW focus is on Role-playing. There's a small dedicated community that focus on gameplay, but that isn't what this game is about, and the more it distances itself from it's RPG nature, the worse. Players have complained about that for ages.

Now that the devs finally make their mission to strengthen the base of this RPG, suddenly it's a problem.

They will never abandon the RPG root and spine of WoW just because some players want this to be "Raids of Warcraft" and ignore all the RPG aspects.

I think you got that one backwards. There is a small dedicated community that focuses on RP. Very dedicated. But sooooo tiny.

I think in my whole time playing wow since vanilla where i went from hardcore, complete casual, RPer back to hardcore and a few more twists and turn, i have met next to no one who plays this game mainly for the RP part...

Even my time on the RP server most players played the game normally and only in their off time RPed a bit.

[A Chozo]

That's on you if you can't tell the difference between an MMO and a single player plot driven game.

A MMORPG is still an RPG.

[Kralljin]

Again, that is 9% of investors. And WoW is just one cog in a much larger machine that prints money. As long as AB is doing well, parts not doing as well doesn't matter.

They straight up said that WoW is one of the core franchises of Activision Blizzard and the only major thing of Blizzard itself actually sees some form of growth right now.
Both OW and Hearthstone have been in decline lately - while other franchises such as Diablo are still years off before they bring in any revenue and HotS / Starcraft not being mentioned at all anymore.

So yeah, disregarding the relevance of WoW to Activision Blizzard is already false and if the revenue of WoW starts to tank, Blizzard (not Activision Blizzard) is in deep trouble unless they have other games ready to compensate.

They said it back in MoP? WoD? That people naturally come and go with patch cycles and expansion cycles and that they are perfectly happy with people subbing for patches, finishing what they want and then unsubbing when they are bored and waiting for the next batch of content.

Sounds more like an explanation how these fluctuations come into existence, rather than saying "yeah, it's fine to us if people unsub".

Shareholders--like actual, meaningful ones, not Player Jim who owns a few hundred dollars worth of ATVI--do not care about metrics like "wow subs", they care about the actual movements of the stock, product release windows, the state of large scale areas of profit like how microtransactions are doing etc.

Mate, the subs indirectly reflect the stockvalue, because more people subbed = more revenue = higher stock value.

So yeah, if they're reporting a sub drop, that will negatively impact the Activision Blizzard stock unless the other Activision branches can compensate that - which however doesn't make Blizzard itself any better, they will be seen more as a liability internally by Activision Blizzard.

Doesn't take a genius to figure out why they stopped reporting sub numbers after the biggest drop in history, because there is no law that forces to report them and then they can easily hide them beneath vague terms in front of the shareholders if they're not doing too well.

[Tyris Flare]

That's on you, buddy. Doesn't make WoW less of a RPG just because you ignore the RPG nature of the game.

It doesn't make wow less of a competitive game because you choose to ignore the competition.

Every thread on this stuff is just filled with incredibly self-serving posts about what the game is or isn't. That's the rub - the game is many different things to many different people all at the same time. It is attempting to please a huge and diverse audience.

My biggest issue with Covenants right now is that I don't think they serve any audience particularly well.

[Soon-TM]

They will never abandon the RPG root and spine of WoW just because some players want this to be "Raids of Warcraft" and ignore all the RPG aspects.

They abandoned the whole concept of locked specialisations, even when it's central to what "roleplay" is supposed to be. Going from Channeler of the Light to Beacon of the Void in a single click? Voila.

They abandoned the concept of specialised gear, which is a complement of the point above. How does the STR provided by this awesome shield turn into INT as soon as I change my spec?

They abandoned the concept of attunements. Hey, go to that super secret fire realm no one has ever reached before, and get your shinies. How the !@#$ am I supposed to know where the thing is, why are we going there, who's helping me in the endeavour... It doesn't matter. Blizzard is telling me to GTFO with my RPG whines and go loot the damn bosses.

They never had in place an alignment system, which I'd argue it's central to a RPG. If I wanted to RP as an evil wizard, what would I be supposed to do? Roll an UD warlock? That might have worked in Vanilla, and it was a stretch already - but not anymore, not now that even the walking, sentient dead of Azeroth "strive endlessly to protect the living". And don't even dare mention the "loyalist" thing in BfA, which told you to pLAy ALonG with the story being exactly the same, except for a couple of quests (which change nothing btw) at the end.

So, you can't come and tell with a straight face that Covenants are MUH RPG, not when there are far more basic tenets of what traditionally an RPG that have been that have been completely ditched by Blizzard, or never taken into account in the first place. And as @LorDC said, the whole discussion is TLA anyway, so good luck with it.

[A Chozo]

So, you can't come and tell with a straight face that Covenants are MUH RPG,

Of course I can.

It's a return to something very basic in Warcraft: the choice of a faction. An important choice, which is why we are glad that Covenants are happening the way they are.

[Krakan]

Of course I can.

It's a return to something very basic in Warcraft: the choice of a faction. An important choice, which is why we are glad that Covenants are happening the way they are.

Most people treat the plot to wow the same way they treat articles in pornos. Sure it's there but it isnt the driving force.

[A Chozo]

Most people treat the plot to wow the same way they treat articles in pornos. Sure it's there but it isnt the driving force.

For real? Every single expansion has a plot, has tons of questlines, has a general theme that is anchored on that plot. Every single dungeon and item's flavor is made to go with the plot.

Just because people ignore it or it is lacking in quality it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist

It would be like me ignoring all the plot of the Warcraft 3 campaign to play on custom maps then saying that the game's plot is irrelevant and the name of the game should instead be Dota

[Tyris Flare]

I like this weird idea that single-player RPGs don't have respecs, because almost all of them do at this point.

Even some tabletop games have "retraining" options now!