The Horde & Alliance have grown too large and rendered the "world" uninteresting

[Claymore]

I've alluded to this in previous posts, but I thought it warranted its own thread. I genuinely believe that both the Horde and the Alliance have grown too large, to the point of rendering the actual *WORLD* of Warcraft quite boring.

It's one of the big reasons Vanilla is held in such high regard; the world feels full of all kinds of unique threats, all kinds of different factions, many of which are isolated to a single area. Sure, most are local threats and not exactly "world-ending" stuff, but they help establish the feeling of a living, breathing universe.

It's a core tenant for why so many people love Fantasy settings to begin with; the feeling of "making it on your own". You're in a big, ruthless world, and you make a name for yourself through your own actions. Not unlike the wild west.

Problem is, modern WoW is closer to real-world scenarios, where the Horde and Alliance are these global superpowers of which no other factions pose any sort of meaningful threat.

I know some people are predicting a time-skip after Shadowlands. Truth be told, I'm actually not opposed to the idea (although I'd personally have at least SOME of the main characters join us in the time-skip, such as Jaina). I've actually thought and even suggested a similar idea myself; that after defending Azeroth from the Void Lords, she (Azeroth the Titan) would put us players in a sort of hibernation for thousands of years, allowing the wilds to reclaim Azeroth. Instead of two all-encompassing factions, each race might make up a handful of small encampments.

Essentially, "hitting the reset-button" in the game's world.

In truth, I don't know what the best solution is. All I know is that having the entire planet consist solely of the Horde and the Alliance makes for a pretty bland universe.

[Dellis0991]

Not really still a lot of unexplored places on Azeroth. The island expeditions gave us a lot of lore and plot lines to explore.

[Claymore]

Not really still a lot of unexplored places on Azeroth. The island expeditions gave us a lot of lore and plot lines to explore.

Yeah, but those are essentially a handful of individuals, not really major players.

The entire planet of Azeroth is basically divided into "Horde territory" and "Alliance territory" now. That really kind of makes the game a lot less interesting, because the factions feel like these monolithic machines that basically devour everything. The "world" feels less dangerous and mysterious for it.

I honestly hope they do something to knock them all down a peg. Particularly the Alliance, or rather specifically *HUMANS*, who I'm kind of tired of seeing running the show. I'd like to see legit Dwarf leaders, not just constantly presented as comedic relief, maybe Worgen who are choosing to embrace their animal side and forming "packs" and their loyalty to Genn Greymane is a little more tenuous. The Horde has always done a better job at showcasing their races, though I do feel it's time for a truly *BADASS* Tauren character (and unfortunately, it ain't Baine; the dude looks more like a puppy than a bull, and he's proven to be way too passive).

Regardless, things like various factions of Ogres, things like the Defias Brotherhood and Bloodsail Buccaneers, the Cult of the Damned... those are all things that used to really flesh out the game universe, but with everything centered now around the Horde and Alliance like they're the only factions that even exist anymore... I dunno, I think it's just really made the in-game world feel like a super boring place.

[Depakote]

Yeah, but those are essentially a handful of individuals, not really major players.

Everyone's a small time player until Blizzard decides they're not anymore and puts them in the spotlight. Maybe let them write the story of WoW instead of trying to tell us how you think it should go.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

The Alliance and Horde doesn't devour everything. There are some lands that aren't really ours. Northrend for one DOES NOT belong to us, it belongs to the Scourge, Dragonflights and whatever else is there, we have our forts there but they're pretty much inert and not relevant, I could go on and on but your interpation is....not reality.

HUMANS*

Oh great another anti Human moan.

[Amaterasu65]

We don't own many areas of Kalimdor and EK. We don't own Pandaria. We don't own parts of Broken Isles. 2/3 of Zandalar is not controlled by the Empire. Outland was not controlled by H&A, we only used settlements. Northrend is very unfriendly to control as well.

[Soon-TM]

instead of trying to tell us how you think it should go.

People expressing their opinions on an internet forum, and daring criticise Blizzard writers on top. Oh the horror.

More on topic, I agree with OP about factions being too large. Which definitely contributes to blur their identities; the Alliance was originally a bunch of human kingdoms + Quel'thalas banding together to fight the Orcish Horde, but now it has become the SW king's personal show (despite now being far more multicultural than ever). In the meantime, Thrall's Horde, after being at A Crossroads™ for like 5234589612 times, has become a Red Alliance. Since the original Alliance is already boring, a copy is bound to be even worse. Both factions definitely need more internal struggles, in order to make them more palatable and believable. Especially the Alliance imo, and the story elements are already there.

It remains to be seen if writers will actually use them... and how.

[Mace]

I've alluded to this in previous posts, but I thought it warranted its own thread. I genuinely believe that both the Horde and the Alliance have grown too large, to the point of rendering the actual *WORLD* of Warcraft quite boring.

It's one of the big reasons Vanilla is held in such high regard; the world feels full of all kinds of unique threats, all kinds of different factions, many of which are isolated to a single area. Sure, most are local threats and not exactly "world-ending" stuff, but they help establish the feeling of a living, breathing universe.

It's a core tenant for why so many people love Fantasy settings to begin with; the feeling of "making it on your own". You're in a big, ruthless world, and you make a name for yourself through your own actions. Not unlike the wild west.

Problem is, modern WoW is closer to real-world scenarios, where the Horde and Alliance are these global superpowers of which no other factions pose any sort of meaningful threat.

I know some people are predicting a time-skip after Shadowlands. Truth be told, I'm actually not opposed to the idea (although I'd personally have at least SOME of the main characters join us in the time-skip, such as Jaina). I've actually thought and even suggested a similar idea myself; that after defending Azeroth from the Void Lords, she (Azeroth the Titan) would put us players in a sort of hibernation for thousands of years, allowing the wilds to reclaim Azeroth. Instead of two all-encompassing factions, each race might make up a handful of small encampments.

Essentially, "hitting the reset-button" in the game's world.

In truth, I don't know what the best solution is. All I know is that having the entire planet consist solely of the Horde and the Alliance makes for a pretty bland universe.

I wrote a topic on netural races happening, so you had horde, alliance, and a bunch of huge races like Night elves, blood elves being independents , where a player from those races would have to choose to join or rather affiliate with those two factions even while being loyal to their own race.



What's the best story for the following races going neutral? - which discusses the potential lore needed for this happening

Would a neutral "race" group actually work? Could it fix problematic faction issues? - discussing gameplay points about it.


Sadly, most people didn't understand what Iw as saying, despite multiple types saying it in bold - they thought I meant a neutral faction or playing as a neutral character.

[Thage]

I think the flow of time being different in the Shadowlands has been explicitly pointed out because they're going to use 10.0 to soft-reset the franchise by skipping forward in time long enough that they can outline a new status quo (and possibly justify another Eastern Kingdoms/Kalimdor update). A decade or two in-lore would be long enough for a new generation of major lore characters to grow to adulthood and get their narrative start, new hostile factions to develop, and it would be a big-enough timeskip to justify the assets put into large-scale zone updates a la Cataclysm.

[Soon-TM]

I think the flow of time being different in the Shadowlands has been explicitly pointed out because they're going to use 10.0 to soft-reset the franchise by skipping forward in time long enough that they can outline a new status quo (and possibly justify another Eastern Kingdoms/Kalimdor update). A decade or two in-lore would be long enough for a new generation of major lore characters to grow to adulthood and get their narrative start, new hostile factions to develop, and it would be a big-enough timeskip to justify the assets put into large-scale zone updates a la Cataclysm.

I'm crossing my fingers at this. But I'm not too hopeful tbh

[Thage]

I'm crossing my fingers at this. But I'm not too hopeful tbh

With their increasing focus on evergreen content, using a timeskip to design a new EK/Kalimdor update would only be in their favor in the long run, as they can unlock them from any set time point with a back-to-basics early leveling experience (like the one at Exile's Reach will be applicable at pretty much any point in the timeline going forth) and they can set the new EK/Kalimdor up so adventurers returning from the Shadowlands have new questlines catching players up on the new status quo.

[Powerogue]

Well we encountered a lot of groups this and last expansion, but pretty much all of them joined us, maybe that's where this idea comes from. But we're shifting away from allied races for the time being, so I'd imagine shadowlands will be better in that regard.

The Alliance and Horde are not only weakened in forces, but their political influence means little in this new dimension. I feel like if there was ever a time for what you're describing, it's right now and for the forseeable future.

[Kithelle]

Yeah, but those are essentially a handful of individuals, not really major players.

The entire planet of Azeroth is basically divided into "Horde territory" and "Alliance territory" now. That really kind of makes the game a lot less interesting, because the factions feel like these monolithic machines that basically devour everything. The "world" feels less dangerous and mysterious for it.

I honestly hope they do something to knock them all down a peg. Particularly the Alliance, or rather specifically *HUMANS*, who I'm kind of tired of seeing running the show. I'd like to see legit Dwarf leaders, not just constantly presented as comedic relief, maybe Worgen who are choosing to embrace their animal side and forming "packs" and their loyalty to Genn Greymane is a little more tenuous. The Horde has always done a better job at showcasing their races, though I do feel it's time for a truly *BADASS* Tauren character (and unfortunately, it ain't Baine; the dude looks more like a puppy than a bull, and he's proven to be way too passive).

Regardless, things like various factions of Ogres, things like the Defias Brotherhood and Bloodsail Buccaneers, the Cult of the Damned... those are all things that used to really flesh out the game universe, but with everything centered now around the Horde and Alliance like they're the only factions that even exist anymore... I dunno, I think it's just really made the in-game world feel like a super boring place.

Except that has always been how WoW was, so I don't understand what you were getting at. Horde had their territory in Vanilla and Alliance still had theirs, only difference between now and then is Teldrassil is burned down and Undercity is uninhabitable

[Soon-TM]

Except that has always been how WoW was, so I don't understand what you were getting at. Horde had their territory in Vanilla and Alliance still had theirs, only difference between now and then is Teldrassil is burned down and Undercity is uninhabitable

While Teldrassil and Undercity are no longer, they have been replaced by Boralus and Dazar'alor respectively, which are far more imposing cities, with their corresponding factions being much more powerful than NEs/Forsaken ever were. And no, the Alliance in Vanilla wasn't the SW king's personal show, much like Vanilla Horde wasn't a schizophrenic band constantly shifting between muh honour and the psycho du jour. Now, if you are going to argue that each faction had its own territory back then, as well as now, it's just a truism, and as such, it contributes exactly nothing for or against OP's idea.

[Accendor]

I've alluded to this in previous posts, but I thought it warranted its own thread. I genuinely believe that both the Horde and the Alliance have grown too large, to the point of rendering the actual *WORLD* of Warcraft quite boring.

It's one of the big reasons Vanilla is held in such high regard; the world feels full of all kinds of unique threats, all kinds of different factions, many of which are isolated to a single area. Sure, most are local threats and not exactly "world-ending" stuff, but they help establish the feeling of a living, breathing universe.

It's a core tenant for why so many people love Fantasy settings to begin with; the feeling of "making it on your own". You're in a big, ruthless world, and you make a name for yourself through your own actions. Not unlike the wild west.

Problem is, modern WoW is closer to real-world scenarios, where the Horde and Alliance are these global superpowers of which no other factions pose any sort of meaningful threat.

I know some people are predicting a time-skip after Shadowlands. Truth be told, I'm actually not opposed to the idea (although I'd personally have at least SOME of the main characters join us in the time-skip, such as Jaina). I've actually thought and even suggested a similar idea myself; that after defending Azeroth from the Void Lords, she (Azeroth the Titan) would put us players in a sort of hibernation for thousands of years, allowing the wilds to reclaim Azeroth. Instead of two all-encompassing factions, each race might make up a handful of small encampments.

Essentially, "hitting the reset-button" in the game's world.

In truth, I don't know what the best solution is. All I know is that having the entire planet consist solely of the Horde and the Alliance makes for a pretty bland universe.

It is not really about horde and alliance but more about the fact that every thread that is not woeld ending is not worthy of our attention, because we are overpowered as fuck. Player Characters can easily go against while armies and win easily.

[Dellis0991]

Yeah, but those are essentially a handful of individuals, not really major players.

The entire planet of Azeroth is basically divided into "Horde territory" and "Alliance territory" now. That really kind of makes the game a lot less interesting, because the factions feel like these monolithic machines that basically devour everything. The "world" feels less dangerous and mysterious for it.

I honestly hope they do something to knock them all down a peg. Particularly the Alliance, or rather specifically *HUMANS*, who I'm kind of tired of seeing running the show. I'd like to see legit Dwarf leaders, not just constantly presented as comedic relief, maybe Worgen who are choosing to embrace their animal side and forming "packs" and their loyalty to Genn Greymane is a little more tenuous. The Horde has always done a better job at showcasing their races, though I do feel it's time for a truly *BADASS* Tauren character (and unfortunately, it ain't Baine; the dude looks more like a puppy than a bull, and he's proven to be way too passive).

Regardless, things like various factions of Ogres, things like the Defias Brotherhood and Bloodsail Buccaneers, the Cult of the Damned... those are all things that used to really flesh out the game universe, but with everything centered now around the Horde and Alliance like they're the only factions that even exist anymore... I dunno, I think it's just really made the in-game world feel like a super boring place.

Not really some of them a legit threats to world or if left alone could become something big in time, with the timeskip coming anything is possible

[Adramalech]

I'm crossing my fingers at this. But I'm not too hopeful tbh

This is my stance too. That's what I'm hoping for, but absolutely not holding my breath.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Not really still a lot of unexplored places on Azeroth. The island expeditions gave us a lot of lore and plot lines to explore.

Are there, though? I can name the Dragon Isles and that's it unless Blizz decides to give us that South Seas Boating Expansion we all thought BFA would be.

And that's a problem no timeskip or sequel can solve. Azeroth's tapped out, and I for one don't want Universe of Starwarcraft.

[twothe]

I very much expect a "reset" in any form. I actually expected it with Legion already, because we were collection the pillars of creation, which would give us the tools to reshape the world. Later on the Legion actually was defeated and Azeroth severely wounded, which would have been a nice kick-off to have the planet Azeroth actually awake prematurely and with that everyone on Azeroth would have died and sent to the Shadowlands. But the writers found it to be more epic if Sylvannas breaks a helmet.

The main reasons that make a reset necessary are, beside the fact that the Horde and Alliance became unconquerable factions, is that the main story writers have all left Blizzard, and the new ones don't really seem to be able to catch onto the loose threads left behind.

[azkhane]

Not really still a lot of unexplored places on Azeroth. The island expeditions gave us a lot of lore and plot lines to explore.

Most if not all ended in nazjatar and nyalotha, only major plot line that is still unexplained is the presence of a necromancer cult that doesnt look like being part of the scourge or sylvanas plot. To bad that it will go nowhere thanks to blizzard putting kel thuzad in SL instead of using him as a scourge 2.0 leader, a weird move specially since the fate of kel thuzad was never explained after nax25, his phylactery was never found and he was presumed "alive" but it looks like some random got him.