Why is Theramore seen as unjustified?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

They didn't "try to". They had trade relations with the Night Elves prior to Wrath. It's just that the Night Elves unilaterally ceased all trade relations over Wrathgate (despite the Alliance already knowing by that time that the Wrathgate was performed by people that turned against the Horde and not the actual Horde). And since there is no Azerothian WTO and the peace talks with Alliance led to nowhere because Varian was a hotheaded moron with ridiculous expectations of the Horde (like bitching about the Horde not turning in the perpetrators of an attack in Ashenvale before Thrall actually investigated the event and found out who the perpetrators were; it just so happened it was a false flag operation by the Twilight Hammer), the only recourse the Horde had against Night Elves violating trade relations like that was war.

In slight defence of the night elfs here It seems super likely that varian would paint the battle of undercity and the wrath gate as a evil orc thing and that the night elfs would take it at face value as they really didn't have Reason to distrust varian.

The night elfs have a tendency to take stuff at face value and not really think about it after all.

[Feanoro]

alliance favorite hobby of practice genocide against weaker races? the number of races purged from existence by a single alliance faction dwarfs entire horde factions combined
Horde is miles away from even getting close to 10% of what alliance did

Oh look, this head canon again.

[Mehrunes]

In slight defence of the night elfs here It seems super likely that varian would paint the battle of undercity and the wrath gate as a evil orc thing and that the night elfs would take it at face value as they really didn't have Reason to distrust varian.

The night elfs have a tendency to take stuff at face value and not really think about it after all.

I mean, sure, that sounds like something pre-MoP Varian would do. But, on the other hand, we also had ultra peacenik pre-MoP Jaina in the mix there as well. And Jaina was not only there when the Horde explained the situation to the Alliance, she was also there when Varian accepted that explanation and made his plans for Undercity by taking Horde at their word. And, as I recently re-read parts of The Shattering, in the book Thrall re-stated that Putress and his squad weren't Horde but traitors to Jaina and she agreed (that bit will sure come handy).

And, again, I can see Varian not giving a shit about that at the moment, either because he was deliberately trying to manipulate the rest of the Alliance to make them go with his declaration of war, or because it simply didn't matter to him anymore. But between him and Jaina, Jaina's the one who actually helped Night Elves defeat Archimonde. To Night Elves Varian was just some guy that recently appeared and only made things worse, while she was their strong ally that literally helped them save their land and the whole world.

So Night Elves going with this potential idiocy from Varian rather than with Jaina who'd obviously try to explain the situation because of how pro-peace she used to be at the time would strike me as Night Elves deliberately choosing the version that's more convenient for them to suit their attitude against the Horde in what can be only described as bad faith. Especially in light of how the situation persisted all the way to Garrosh taking the mantle of Warchief, which indicates their ignorance of Jaina's claims (and the Horde's) continued over a period of time.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I mean, sure, that sounds like something pre-MoP Varian would do. But, on the other hand, we also had ultra peacenik pre-MoP Jaina in the mix there as well. And Jaina was not only there when the Horde explained the situation to the Alliance, she was also there when Varian accepted that explanation and made his plans for Undercity by taking Horde at their word. And, as I recently re-read parts of The Shattering, in the book Thrall re-stated that Putress and his squad weren't Horde but traitors to Jaina and she agreed (that bit will sure come handy).

And, again, I can see Varian not giving a shit about that at the moment, either because he was deliberately trying to manipulate the rest of the Alliance to make them go with his declaration of war, or because it simply didn't matter to him anymore. But between him and Jaina, Jaina's the one who actually helped Night Elves defeat Archimonde. To Night Elves Varian was just some guy that recently appeared and only made things worse, while she was their strong ally that literally helped them save their land and the whole world.

So Night Elves going with this potential idiocy from Varian rather than with Jaina who'd obviously try to explain the situation because of how pro-peace she used to be at the time would strike me as Night Elves deliberately choosing the version that's more convenient for them to suit their attitude against the Horde in what can be only described as bad faith. Especially in light of how the situation persisted all the way to Garrosh taking the mantle of Warchief, which indicates their ignorance of Jaina's claims (and the Horde's) continued over a period of time.

That’s a good point I didn’t even think about Jaina so there really can’t be any defence for the night elfs they are just being ass holes.

[Faerillis]

Even if I grant all of that (which I don't), that wouldn't justify pillaging their lands. Again, being poor doesn't give you the right to mug rich people.

Depends how rich; you only get severe wealth disparities when the rich already steal from the poor. You probably shouldn't steal from someone worth 2 million but you should definitely take by money from billionaires by any means necessary

[sam86]

Some were caught out in the sea, others in the marsh. You can see them when you do SoO. They are in cage or simply dead in the raid.

which is impossible in both cases because by sea they left way ahead of horde entering the sea in first place and there was no one trying land escape anyway

Yes but, as much there is some problems with what he said, that's really really impossible by the book canon. They were ported and shipped out long before the attack. There weren't floundering civilians left in the city at the time of the attack. It seems to be in effort to make it more atrocious but it does contradict the book's first hand account. If you're going to have a story told across different types of media, you have to follow what you write down at some point or proactively point out what was wrong

exactly, thank you

Oh look, this head canon again.

what head canon ? u mean ur version of deny that alliance literally tried to kill every blood elf and goblin and darkspear troll and forsaken? Here are the sources, maybe they can now correct ur head canon
Forsaken: many quests, but most recent is Before the Storm book
Blood elves: first time alliance campaign in WC3 TFT, 2nd time is Purge of Dalaran, no idea still possible in game or not but where the campaign quests in MoP exp
Goblins of Kezan: just roll a goblin and u'll see it in intro quests
Darkspear trolls: wc3 demo or wc3 TFT extra missions

Now show me current horde - Thrall horde, not old horde which is enemy btw to playable horde - when exactly did they try to kill alliance on sight? (if u count Sylvanas tree burning, then everything Arthas did is easily counted as alliance work since if u 'missed' it, horde wants Sylvanas dead too)

[Specialka]

which is impossible in both cases because by sea they left way ahead of horde entering the sea in first place and there was no one trying land escape anyway

exactly, thank you


what head canon ? u mean ur version of deny that alliance literally tried to kill every blood elf and goblin and darkspear troll and forsaken? Here are the sources, maybe they can now correct ur head canon
Forsaken: many quests, but most recent is Before the Storm book
Blood elves: first time alliance campaign in WC3 TFT, 2nd time is Purge of Dalaran, no idea still possible in game or not but where the campaign quests in MoP exp
Goblins of Kezan: just roll a goblin and u'll see it in intro quests
Darkspear trolls: wc3 demo or wc3 TFT extra missions

Now show me current horde - Thrall horde, not old horde which is enemy btw to playable horde - when exactly did they try to kill alliance on sight? (if u count Sylvanas tree burning, then everything Arthas did is easily counted as alliance work since if u 'missed' it, horde wants Sylvanas dead too)

Part of the horde wants her dead. While the whole Alliance wanted Arthas dead when he returned as a DK.

[Polybius]

Under Garrosh's order, a weapon of mass destruction was stolen from the Kirin Tor and used to bomb Theramore. The bomb death toll included neutral leaders. Survivors were captured and tortured in Orgrimmar. Garrosh did not destroy Theramore because "he had enough," he had a much bigger agenda that involved pushing into all Alliance territory. His attack on ships off shore from Durotar was the first part, along with the destruction of Night Elf land.

Theramore attacked smaller towns when it was led by other leaders through propaganda against the Horde. You will often hear misconceptions that Northwatch Hold took orders from Jaina, but it never did. Theramore only provided port and supply to Northwatch Hold.

[Feanoro]

what head canon ? u mean ur version of deny that alliance literally tried to kill every blood elf and goblin and darkspear troll and forsaken? Here are the sources, maybe they can now correct ur head canon

You do like exaggerating, don't you? What the hell, I'll play a bit. I'll be repeating the exact same canon things you refuse to hear in other threads, but hey, at least you're tenacious!

Forsaken: many quests, but most recent is Before the Storm book

Forsaken were initially thought to be a trick of the Scourge. Instead of understanding that people would naturally be terrified of them right after the Scourge wiped Lordaeron off the map, they decided to take revenge for the "insult" and since then have proved to be no better than the Scourge. During vanilla, the only group actively trying to wipe out the Forsaken was the Scarlet Crusade. The only way you can claim SC was Alliance is if you use racist "all humans = Alliance" logic.

Blood elves: first time alliance campaign in WC3 TFT, 2nd time is Purge of Dalaran, no idea still possible in game or not but where the campaign quests in MoP exp

Garithos was effectively a regional warlord as a survivor of Lordaeron, and it is canon that the other Alliance members had no idea of his policies. Kael'thas and the BElves with him were not the entire population, they were a squadron sent to aid Lordaeron. It cannot be argued then that "wipe out all Blood Elves" was Alliance policy.

Purge of Dalaran: A small subset of Blood Elves were present in Dalaran. Jaina's stated goal was to arrest Sunreavers for their possible involvement in the Divine Bell incident. We have blue statements that 1) the story intention was that she teleported Sunreavers to the Violet Hold, and 2) the scripts involved screwed up and flagged a lot of Sunreavers hostile that shouldn't have been. All that together makes for Jaina acting wildly incorrectly, but not a genocide. Jaina did not consult with any Alliance leaders, and later was chewed out for ruining negotiations with Quel'thalas. It cannot be argued then that "wipe out all Blood Elves" was Alliance policy. Again.

Goblins of Kezan: just roll a goblin and u'll see it in intro quests

I've got a little goblin. I saw an Alliance ship, acting on its own authority, try to sink a ship that witnessed a black ops mission. There is no proof that Alliance ship knew about the disaster in Kezan or knew the passengers on the goblin ship were the survivors of that disaster. There is further no proof that action was even known by the Alliance leadership, let alone approved. So again, there is no proof that "kill all goblins" is Alliance policy.

Darkspear trolls: wc3 demo or wc3 TFT extra missions

You mean when Daelin acted on his own authority? When the rest of the Alliance disapproved, leading to Kul'Tiras leaving the Alliance? That's a strange reaction if the official Alliance policy was "kill all trolls".

Now show me current horde - Thrall horde, not old horde which is enemy btw to playable horde

This is nonsense. The Old Horde became Thrall's Horde when Orgrim declared him Warchief. The current Horde has elderly members who served the Old Horde and then got off the demon juice. They don't seem to be enemies to the players.

when exactly did they try to kill alliance on sight?

Is this a serious question? It is? Wow,ok. Well then, besides every Horde leveling zone? Southshore, Ashenvale, Gilneas, Theramore, the druid school in Stonetalon, Twilight Highlands, Andorhal, Ferelas, Icecrown Glacier (from behind while they were fighting the Scourge, no less), Icecrown Citadel, Dragonblight, Pandaria... Shoot, it'd take less time to list where DIDN'T the Horde try to kill on sight.

(if u count Sylvanas tree burning,

Which she did as Warchief of the Horde, with a Horde army, making it official Horde policy.

then everything Arthas did is easily counted as alliance work

Only if you think false equivalences to try to excuse the Horde are legitimate arguments. Arthas betrayed the Alliance, and from the moment he picked up Frostmourne, was controlled by the Lich King. The Lich King, as you surely recall, was the soul of Ner'zhul, an orcish shaman and a leader of the Old Horde, given his powers by Kil'jaeden. You're not seriously going to try to argue the Lich King or Kil'jaeden were ever Alliance members, are you?

since if u 'missed' it, horde wants Sylvanas dead too)

Only after she admitted they were just fuel for her powers. Before that, canonically the majority of the Horde eagerly followed her, and she still has loyalists in the Horde. "I was just following orders" is not a defense.

[mickybrighteyes]

1) It is really really getting exhausting how the Draenei get blamed for the actions of the Legion. They are VICTIMS, they are NOT responsible for the actions of Sargeras. How can people still not get this? It is unbelievable...

first off Literally no one blames Draenei for anything. I used that example becuase it's just a blatant fact. Draenor was only found in the first place because Kil'jaeden was looking for Velen and the Draenei.

2) It was Ner'zhul that destroyed the planet. Pretty sure he had not joined the Alliance. But ye, let us blame the Alliance for that too, because if the facts do not support our defense for the innocent green warmongers we just make new facts.

The event being the result of being backed into a corner by the alliance forces that went through the portal....

3) Or how about we blame the Lordaeronians for what Lordearon did. You might know them as "Forsaken" and find them among the Horde. And I am not even sure what Lordaeron did that you would blame them for?

Lordaeronians include the living and the dead. A fact that people like you are want to reference when it suits you for determining who deserves the territory more.

If you mean Arthas then that was again Ner'zhul.

Depends on when you're discussing Arthas. Nerzul wasn't in his head when he was slaughtering his folk in Stratholme and likewise was still a spirit stuck in a chunk of ice while Lordaeron fell.

If you mean the camps then pray tell what else you would do with an invading army of blood-crazed demon worshippers that slaughtered your loved ones? Let them go free so they can murder some more? If anything Lordaeron was too lenient.

It's nice how you can praise internment camps as benevolent. The other part of the camp angle is the hunting them across the sea to territories not held...

WC3 actually showed beings that freely re-tainted themselves to murder forest gods and nightelves. Let's face it, Orcs are not the heroes of the story, they are not innocent beings that got corrupted. Every time they got corrupted they chose it because of a promise of more power, more conquest, more blood.

This would make for a very interesting point had the night elves AND Cenarius not actually been the aggressors in attacking the orcs first. And then there's the issue where WC3 also had orcs being admonished for re-tainting themselves by their peers... This is like arguing that all humans are irredeemable because some other human went back to dabbling in fel magic again despite past fel mage dealings.

They have not contributed a single positive thing to Azeroth's culture because they do not have a culture outside of war.

Caverns of time directly refutes this with the basis of forcibly ensuring the invasion occurs.

The best evidence is that Orgrimmar is still sitting in a wasteland,

You know what... just going to stop right here... Whatever point was following this is likely straight autism. There was a bridge that took almost a decade to build and fires still burn in some towns lost a war or two back...

Infracted.

Deserts and arid climates aren't all "wastelands" and the lack of terraforming among the various faction groups isn't an indication of what you wish to imply. Ogrimmar has shown more "growth" than Ironforge given how the game has shown either taking place. Gnomes didn't even clean up their city in the time it took Orgrimmar to be founded and converted from wood to metal. Nevermind that Gnomer has been lost to the gnomes far longer than the horde has existed. Just in general any metric using territorial climate of a region as justification for anything beyond geographic location is going to be utter tripe.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

what head canon ? u mean ur version of deny that alliance literally tried to kill every blood elf and goblin and darkspear troll and forsaken? Here are the sources, maybe they can now correct ur head canon
Forsaken: many quests, but most recent is Before the Storm book

before the storm show that some humans hate undead others can get past it, the alliance stance with anduin in charge is try and get past it. but lets say under varian it was to kill them

Blood elves: first time alliance campaign in WC3 TFT, 2nd time is Purge of Dalaran, no idea still possible in game or not but where the campaign quests in MoP exp

what happend in WC3 wasn't at the command of any in the wow alliance and no one knowingly supported it. the purge was also not supported by the alliance wasn't about killing all blood elfs and varian was trying to get the blood elfs back at the time.

Goblins of Kezan: just roll a goblin and u'll see it in intro quests

the alliance didn't want to kill the goblins the goblins were irrelevant to them other then as witnesses
they wanted thrall dead and for no one to know.

Darkspear trolls: wc3 demo or wc3 TFT extra missions

honestly don't remember what ever happened with the trolls.

Now show me current horde - Thrall horde, not old horde which is enemy btw to playable horde

thrall's horde was made up of the orcs of the old horde they are literally the same force with a new leader.

- when exactly did they try to kill alliance on sight?

given that you put in things like forasken quest you could say the same for horde quest in a ton of area's.

(if u count Sylvanas tree burning, then everything Arthas did is easily counted as alliance work since if u 'missed' it, horde wants Sylvanas dead too)

no one in the alliance backed arthas and stood with him every one in the horde backed sylvans and stood with her for most of BFA so its an incredibly false equivalent.

- - - Updated - - -

Under Garrosh's order, a weapon of mass destruction was stolen from the Kirin Tor

the iris was taken from the blue dragons who mostly peaced out, if it was from the kirin tor there would likely have been a much larger mage response.

[Nefarious Tea]

Blizzard had pretty much confirmed that the barrens conflict was started by North watch and co so I dont really see how it is a war crime

Jaina was pouring in legions of soldiers, steamtanks and ballista, burns down Taurajo and attacks the great gate, then garrosh has had enough, nukes it and suddenly it’s a war crime. «Innocents died». Innocents don’t matter in wow. There is a world quest where you run over like a thousand goblins with a dark iron golem and its seen as funny and hilarious

And Im not asking for a pissing contest about how much worse the horde has done, I am asking why its seen as a warcrime and not a legitimate military target *cough*

Because intentionally targeting civilians is a war crime. what fucking nazi bullshit idiocy is this that you think committing a war crime is ok? Good gods, you're an awful person.

Infracted.

[mickybrighteyes]

before the storm show that some humans hate undead others can get past it, the alliance stance with anduin in charge is try and get past it.

Anduin's stance is also relatively ignored by his subordinates. Unclear how much weight his position holds even WITH him being "High King"

what happend in WC3 wasn't at the command of any in the wow alliance and no one knowingly supported it.

Some people still use the "old group isn't far different from the new group" argument for some of these situations.

Dalaran and the old Grand Marshal of the Alliance still acted with the authority of the alliance nations that did the elves dirty the first time around.

the alliance didn't want to kill the goblins the goblins were irrelevant to them other then as witnesses

"they didn't care about the goblins... they were only in the way" is a poor point to stand on. That's sort of like how the Zandalari might have viewed the alliance way back when cause they only cared about the Troll nations rather than the elves or humans in the nearby regions.

they wanted thrall dead and for no one to know.

actually, I'm not sure that was the case. I think it was more that they were angling to take thrall as a method for forcing the conflict to end. Not straight up assassination.

honestly don't remember what ever happened with the trolls but given that every thing else is wrong id assume this is two.

The trolls had some conflict with Daelin's forces who showed up and were treating trolls as kill on sight. Daelin was generally an asshat in the WC3 game. hunting the orcs out into the ocean, taking over Theramore because he's Jaina's daddy AND a big wig Admiral in the Alliance Navy, flexing his military power by trying to wipe out some local trolls simply because they exist... They were making him the right villain of the story arc and even Jaina wasn't too sad to see him go (that last bit i think got retconned though).

thrall's horde was made up of the orcs of the old horde they are literally the same force with a new leader.

I wouldn't really use this argument while trying to distance from the old alliance... The Seven Kingdoms of the Old alliance are arguably closer to the current alliance than the blood raging invading horde under Blackhand/Orgrim/Guldan is to the current Free of taint post invasion remaining orc clans.

Both groups have heroes and figures from the past conflicts still present and alive... less so in the horde given how plot advancements have come with most horde figure heads getting offed

given that you put in things like forasken quest you could say the same for horde quest in a ton of area's.

Yeah i had to wonder why anyone would try and argue a faction doesn't treat the other faction as kill on sight... that's litterally the status quo for basically every major faction group and only prevented in neutral areas like Dalaran or Shattrath where both factions are required to work together.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Anduin's stance is also relatively ignored by his subordinates. Unclear how much weight his position holds even WITH him being "High King"

the person who was most against it went along with it so he clearly holds a fair bit of weight pre tree burning and post tree burning no one seems to care other then about sylvanas.

Some people still use the "old group isn't far different from the new group" argument for some of these situations.

no one in the wow alliance has been shown to hold the same stances

Dalaran and the old Grand Marshal of the Alliance still acted with the authority of the alliance nations that did the elves dirty the first time around.

an old marshal just isn't relevant to alliances stances no one knew what he was doing no one supported him in what he did. Dalaran also didn't act with the authority of the alliance at all that was all jaina with the Authority of the kirin tor.

"they didn't care about the goblins... they were only in the way" is a poor point to stand on. That's sort of like how the Zandalari might have viewed the alliance way back when cause they only cared about the Troll nations rather than the elves or humans in the nearby regions.

as bad as it might seem calculator damage being ok is a way better stance then genocide.

actually, I'm not sure that was the case. I think it was more that they were angling to take thrall as a method for forcing the conflict to end. Not straight up assassination.

I can't say i remember it all but im pretty sure they shot at the boat because they wanted him dead and shot at the others so no one would know.

The trolls had some conflict with Daelin's forces who showed up and were treating trolls as kill on sight. Daelin was generally an asshat in the WC3 game. hunting the orcs out into the ocean, taking over Theramore because he's Jaina's daddy AND a big wig Admiral in the Alliance Navy, flexing his military power by trying to wipe out some local trolls simply because they exist... They were making him the right villain of the story arc and even Jaina wasn't too sad to see him go (that last bit i think got retconned though).

ah then it sounds like a justified example.

I wouldn't really use this argument while trying to distance from the old alliance... The Seven Kingdoms of the Old alliance are arguably closer to the current alliance than the blood raging invading horde under Blackhand/Orgrim/Guldan is to the current Free of taint post invasion remaining orc clans.

the orcs are closer because unlike the alliance who were just part of the same alliance pretty much all of the wow kingdoms didn't take part in WC3 things or had minor or unknowing rolls while the orcs took part in WC1-3 and they even still had doomhammer around when thrall showed up.

Both groups have heroes and figures from the past conflicts still present and alive... less so in the horde given how plot advancements have come with most horde figure heads getting offed

both groups still have heros and figures but when it comes to said figures the alliance ones tend to be rather free of blame while the horde ones tend to have taken part in the crimes of the past horde (at least as far as orcs go).

Yeah i had to wonder why anyone would try and argue a faction doesn't treat the other faction as kill on sight... that's litterally the status quo for basically every major faction group and only prevented in neutral areas like Dalaran or Shattrath where both factions are required to work together.

ya an odd thing to try and throw into question.

[StaeleAilar]

The book canon never addresses the fact that Theramoore was sending troops

It's been a while so maybe i have to re-read the book/re-play the relevant areas of the game, but weren't the troops being moved in via theramore from stormwind in order to curtail the orc/horde aggression going into Ashenvale from Orgrimmar side of the zone?
Perhaps im confusing it with something else though.

That being said, it took me a bit personally and while i *agree* (on some level) that Theramore was a legitimate target for war, it was a war crime because of the way that Garrosh went about destroying it. And again, if i remember correctly, the book even paints the kind of thoughts and actions he was having when doing it/planning it/celebrating after it. Whereby he even murders generals sent by the likes of Sylvanas, Lorthemar and such inside the inn in Razor Hill because they had questioned something that was done in the presence of Mal'korok.

TL;DR it was a war crime because he nuked a port that was *mostly* civilian in nature, not military. Kind of like when he killed his general in Stonetalon in early cata for nuking the druid tree.

[TristanTaylor]

Just an fyi, the warning Theramore got about the bomb incoming, that wasn't intended by Garrosh, that was Baine being a friend, so any claims of them having been given time to evacuate the civilians are incorrect in so far as there was never the intention of giving a warning.

[Aucald]

This thread needs to settle down. Make your arguments without rancor or tossing insults about.

[mickybrighteyes]

the person who was most against it went along with it so he clearly holds a fair bit of weight pre tree burning and post tree burning no one seems to care other then about sylvanas.

Not sure what you're talking about now. But fact is that Anduin has on at least 3 occassions told his people to do one thing and they turn around and treat teh command as more like "i'll try and do that... maybe..." instead.

no one in the wow alliance has been shown to hold the same stances

I would ask what you mean. Two leaders from the second war stepping out with their pre-third war mindest is a thing. I repeatedly mock one for their lack of awareness of events between their departure and virtually non-existent debrief of recent history.

Gnomes and dwarves haven't exactly changed much as nations... gnomes having lost gnomer sometime before the third war and just chilling as they supported Ironforge and the human nations still.

an old marshal just isn't relevant to alliances stances no one knew what he was doing no one supported him in what he did.

given how you literally just argued the horde is the same despite a leader change I feel this is a very disingenuous point.

Dalaran also didn't act with the authority of the alliance at all that was all jaina with the Authority of the kirin tor.

Which time? the first time trip to the violet hold Jaina had no part in cause she ran across the sea. The second time she did it in the name of the alliance so it really matters little if it the alliance had given her the authority or not... Jaina still pledged the city to the alliance in the act.

as bad as it might seem calculator damage being ok is a way better stance then genocide.

Collateral damage... -.-

I'm sure the people in the blast radius will take it to heart that they weren't really teh targets of the explosion.... but in this case they WERE teh target just to avoid something else. Thing is this would still have wiped out a large group of people... an entire ideological/racial group even... and would still make the case for genocide. Accidental genocide is so much nicer than deliberate cleansing genocide

I can't say i remember it all but im pretty sure they shot at the boat because they wanted him dead and shot at the others so no one would know.

The custcene really only opens up with the boats already engaged with the captain saying they're orders are to capture the horde target. As for dead or alive it doesn't go into much detail. It's assumed that capturing would have been a way to force a deal and end active hostilities... but this doesn't really have any lore to back it up. On the flip side. Thrall dying would be turning him into a matyr... and might make anyone who were deemed responsible a valid target for a horde crusade

the orcs are closer because unlike the alliance who were just part of the same alliance pretty much all of the wow kingdoms didn't take part in WC3 things or had minor or unknowing rolls while the orcs took part in WC1-3 and they even still had doomhammer around when thrall showed up.

Orcs went through multiple shifts between fel induced blood curse and withdrawal and the following camp situation. Adding onto that many clans had other issues concerning continued existence. This is not unlike how certain nations rose and fell among the Seven Kingdoms. But thing is that the humans living in the remaining kingdom that stuck around are literally the survivors from those fallen nations as well and didn't have such a shift as mass cult taking over their leadership forcing them into action or violent compulsion taking them over.

The leadership shift of the seat of power moving from Lordaeron to Stormwind is very unlike Thrall founding a brand new nation of his own design.

both groups still have heros and figures but when it comes to said figures the alliance ones tend to be rather free of blame while the horde ones tend to have taken part in the crimes of the past horde (at least as far as orcs go).

I think that's more an indicator of certain bad storytelling tropes.... >.> some 'heroes' manage to stay blameless in some very awkward situations or just straight up vanish for awhile.... Rogers and Jaina have eerily clean hands despite how much blood they've spilled

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Not sure what you're talking about now. But fact is that Anduin has on at least 3 occassions told his people to do one thing and they turn around and treat teh command as more like "i'll try and do that... maybe..." instead.

in before the storm anduin get's genn to go to the meeting with the forsaken and genn releases not all of the frosaken are dicks. this might have changed with the burning of the tree but it hasn't really been shown if it has.

I would ask what you mean. Two leaders from the second war stepping out with their pre-third war mindest is a thing. I repeatedly mock one for their lack of awareness of events between their departure and virtually non-existent debrief of recent history.

Gnomes and dwarves haven't exactly changed much as nations... gnomes having lost gnomer sometime before the third war and just chilling as they supported Ironforge and the human nations still.

I mean in term of how they see blood elfs the only people who really had a problem with them ended up dead.

given how you literally just argued the horde is the same despite a leader change I feel this is a very disingenuous point.

every one who was with him when he did anti blood elfs things died there is zero overlap between the people involved and the alliance unlike the horde and the orcs.

Which time? the first time trip to the violet hold Jaina had no part in cause she ran across the sea. The second time she did it in the name of the alliance so it really matters little if it the alliance had given her the authority or not... Jaina still pledged the city to the alliance in the act.

first time is a fair point the second with jaiana is her going against the alliances interest for her own kirin tor whims.

Collateral damage... -.-

I'm sure the people in the blast radius will take it to heart that they weren't really teh targets of the explosion.... but in this case they WERE teh target just to avoid something else. Thing is this would still have wiped out a large group of people... an entire ideological/racial group even... and would still make the case for genocide. Accidental genocide is so much nicer than deliberate cleansing genocide

ah i missed that due to auto correct.

as far to individual ya it sucks for them but the topic wasn't about rather the alliance dicks to some people which they are its about rather there dicks to race groups. and as far as the alliance goes there fine with goblins as long as there not causing a fuss.

The custcene really only opens up with the boats already engaged with the captain saying they're orders are to capture the horde target. As for dead or alive it doesn't go into much detail. It's assumed that capturing would have been a way to force a deal and end active hostilities... but this doesn't really have any lore to back it up. On the flip side. Thrall dying would be turning him into a matyr... and might make anyone who were deemed responsible a valid target for a horde crusade

I would assume if they were trying to kill him they would have wanted no one to know so he couldn't be a matyr the horde would just think he'd abandoned them like garrosh did.

Orcs went through multiple shifts between fel induced blood curse and withdrawal and the following camp situation. Adding onto that many clans had other issues concerning continued existence. This is not unlike how certain nations rose and fell among the Seven Kingdoms. But thing is that the humans living in the remaining kingdom that stuck around are literally the survivors from those fallen nations as well and didn't have such a shift as mass cult taking over their leadership forcing them into action or violent compulsion taking them over


The leadership shift of the seat of power moving from Lordaeron to Stormwind is very unlike Thrall founding a brand new nation of his own design.

I don't really think theres any point in musing over what if's. with what the orcs of the horde are directly the the same ones who took parts in all the acts under gul'dan doomhammer blackhadn ect. sure they might have been different with different leaders but that doesn't really clear them of there crimes and even the orcs them self admit it. the alliance doesn't really have any groups that are comparable to the orcs as every one who acts that way tend to die with no one actually supporting there actions or only get minor roles before being put away like Rodgers.

I think that's more an indicator of certain bad storytelling tropes.... >.> some 'heroes' manage to stay blameless in some very awkward situations or just straight up vanish for awhile.... Rogers and Jaina have eerily clean hands despite how much blood they've spilled

pretty much ya. I honestly wish the alliance would do more grey/evil stuff but they blizzard trys really hard to keep them clean and just kills any one who might lean that way or puts them on a shelf.

it's the only reason that the alliance doesn't have any one comparable to the horde blizzard always trims out the characters who could make them interesting.

[Syegfryed]

Just an fyi, the warning Theramore got about the bomb incoming, that wasn't intended by Garrosh, that was Baine being a friend, so any claims of them having been given time to evacuate the civilians are incorrect in so far as there was never the intention of giving a warning.

Garrosh wanted then to get as much soldiers/reinforcements they could get, as far i know the bomb was never warned by baine, he just warned that the horde was going to attack, and gave time for then to prepare and not be taken at first.

Garrosh "camp" outside, waiting for then to get soldiers/reinforcements, even if it was not his plan, still is a free time that they used to evacuate

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TL;DR it was a war crime because he nuked a port that was *mostly* civilian in nature, not military. Kind of like when he killed his general in Stonetalon in early cata for nuking the druid tree.

sure not, it is a "war crime" because he used the bomb, just that, no way in hell theramore was "mostly civilian in nature"