Why is Taurajo seen as unjustified?

[Gann Stonespire]

The funny thing is I went and read the Alliance side of the questline out of curiosity.

He went berserk and doubled down on brutal, merciless tactics after someone did something so very, very terrible to him that they "made it personal."

A tauren killed his son.

Can you guess that tauren's name?

It's starting to look less like this is a black and white story about the courageous, valiant Gann Stonespire against the evil alliance and their treasonous lackey Baine, and more a story about the cycle of hatred.

You do realize Twinbraid's son was a member of the military who sent the Alliance player to kill tauren and was a massive racist. You do realize the only reason, Bael'dun and Twinbraid are there is to attack the Horde by their own admission.

You do realize Twinbraid's was a giant cannon death fortress and Gann only sabotaged its cannon so when they fired, they got a taste of their own medicine. The only people inside were LOL at Bael'Dun rifleman, Bael'Dun Soldier, and Bael'dun Officer, military men actively involved in warcrimes including the genocide of the Stonespire Tribe.


None of Twinbraid's victims were in the military and all were Horde civilians he attacked because he was a coward with no morality.

LOL at you defending genocide.

If Teldrassil was done to the Horde, you'd say fighting back would be evil and part of the cycle of vengeance.

It is your typical cycle of revenge story, there is nothing special about that tauren, whose family Twinbraid slaughtered, who then went on to murder Twinbraids son. Just an eye for an eye.

They wiped out his tribe and stole their land simply for protesting against dwarves tearing apart the earth, and then set up a military base for the purpose of making future attacks on the horde. Note not getting permission from the natives for archealogy is a serious crime.

And this isn't even the first time, I've seen a Horde hater who defends Horde hating Baine making the false equivalence to Gann's tribe being genocided to him blowing up the fortress of scumbags that did it.

[Specialka]

You do realize Twinbraid's son was a member of the military who sent the Alliance player to kill tauren and was a massive racist. You do realize the only reason, Bael'dun and Twinbraid are there is to attack the Horde by their own admission.

You do realize Twinbraid's was a giant cannon death fortress and Gann only sabotaged its cannon so when they fired, they got a taste of their own medicine. The only people inside were LOL at Bael'Dun rifleman, Bael'Dun Soldier, and Bael'dun Officer, military men actively involved in warcrimes including the genocide of the Stonespire Tribe.


None of Twinbraid's victims were in the military and all were Horde civilians he attacked because he was a coward with no morality.

LOL at you defending genocide.

If Teldrassil was done to the Horde, you'd say fighting back would be evil and part of the cycle of vengeance.



They wiped out his tribe and stole their land simply for protesting against dwarves tearing apart the earth, and then set up a military base for the purpose of making future attacks on the horde. Note not getting permission from the natives for archealogy is a serious crime.

And this isn't even the first time, I've seen a Horde hater who defends Horde hating Baine making the false equivalence to Gann's tribe being genocided to him blowing up the fortress of scumbags that did it.

That tribe was not genocided. Slaughtered, murdered, your pick, but not genocided.

[Powerogue]

That tribe was not genocided. Slaughtered, murdered, your pick, but not genocided.

I believe the term in the quest was "driven out." Terrible stuff, but good grief I have been accused of defending everything from racism to genocide by literally just describing the full context of the story.

It's a good story, and Gann [player] is doing a disservice by trying to oversimplify it and call everyone else evil, even with the post that literally said "wow, I understand Gann so much better now, what a tragic tale. I'm so glad you showed me this." I still got raged at.

Looking back, yes, the dwarves absolutely "started it." But at some point someone has to break the cycle and end it.

[Gann Stonespire]

That tribe was not genocided. Slaughtered, murdered, your pick, but not genocided.

noun
noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.


An ancient tribe of people is a large ethnic group or nation, so yes that is genocide.

I believe the term in the quest was "driven out." Terrible stuff, but good grief I have been accused of defending everything from racism to genocide by literally just describing the full context of the story.

Lets see the game's quotes

Many innocent tauren lost their lives or were forced off their ancestral birthplace when the dwarves of Bael Modan arrived.

and a champion of the lost tribe.


That is genocide and a serious wacrime, especially as Twinbraid and Bael'dun did that when the Horde/Alliance were at peace. Your defense of them only continues to makes you look worse, especially given all the real world parallels.

It's a good story, and Gann [player] is doing a disservice by trying to oversimplify it and call everyone else evil,

The dwarves tale in their own words is as follows:

Hey lets take this land straight in the midle of Horde territory, these valuable artifacts there. Forget the people already living, they're just stupid beasts inferior to our great selves.

Those beasts don't like us exploding our land in our search for artifacts, screw them, our search if far greater then their lives, their attempts at diplomacy give us the right to call in the miltary and force them off to the wild wilderness, they're resisting, kill the animals.

Hey this land has value as a good place to attack the Horde, lets establish a military fortress of death here.

Oh no, my scumbag soldier son was killed as a consequence of him killing innocent people, woe is us we our such victims, lets go murder some goblin floozies, we're such tragic innocent victims of the Horde.


If you think the dwarves did even the slightest bit of sympathy, you need your head checked. And I notice you never give any sympathy to the Forsaken or any members of the Horde who attack the Alliance with little provocation.

I still got raged at.

Because you were still doing your best to downplay the Dwarve's actions, claim fighting back was at fault and that Baine's exile his old friends defending against unrepentant warcriminals planning to kill even more innocent people
was justified.

Looking back, yes, the dwarves absolutely "started it." But at some point someone has to break the cycle and end it.

Baine saying the Alliance's actions are right isn't breakign the cycle, its makign the tauren more mad and changes nothing about the Dwarves stance, given they went to kill more innocent people.

Twinbraid and Khazgorm's thoughts and words showed they would never stop mass murdering innocent people of the Horde or feel remorse. It is disgusting you're trying to defend such irredeemable pieces of shit.

Infracted.

[Specialka]

So the burning of Teldrassil was genocide then and it was said by a horde fanboy.

[Gann Stonespire]

So the burning of Teldrassil was genocide then and it was said by a horde fanboy.

When have I ever defended Teldrassil or Sylvanas. Stop changing the subject.

My issue is the double standard by Alliance stans.

[Feanoro]

I believe the term in the quest was "driven out." Terrible stuff, but good grief I have been accused of defending everything from racism to genocide by literally just describing the full context of the story.

It's a good story, and Gann [player] is doing a disservice by trying to oversimplify it and call everyone else evil, even with the post that literally said "wow, I understand Gann so much better now, what a tragic tale. I'm so glad you showed me this." I still got raged at.

Looking back, yes, the dwarves absolutely "started it." But at some point someone has to break the cycle and end it.

You're supposed to fully agree that the Horde's version of $InsertEventHere$ is correct, the Horde is innocent, the Horde has been wronged, and any appearance otherwise is yet another black-hearted Alliance plot. Otherwise, yes, on these forums you will be raged at, largely because there's a lot of Horde fans who will not accept their faction being wrong.

[Gann Stonespire]

You're supposed to fully agree that the Horde's version of $InsertEventHere$ is correct, the Horde is innocent, the Horde has been wronged, and any appearance otherwise is yet another black-hearted Alliance plot. Otherwise, yes, on these forums you will be raged at, largely because there's a lot of Horde fans who will not accept their faction being wrong.

The dwarves own journal paints them in the wrong, so why are you still denying it?

[Combatbutler]

They wiped out his tribe and stole their land simply for protesting against dwarves tearing apart the earth, and then set up a military base for the purpose of making future attacks on the horde. Note not getting permission from the natives for archealogy is a serious crime.

And this isn't even the first time, I've seen a Horde hater who defends Horde hating Baine making the false equivalence to Gann's tribe being genocided to him blowing up the fortress of scumbags that did it.

I am very well aware, doesn't change a thing though, it is just a revenge story, just as much as the quilboar orc conflict for example.

[Feanoro]

The dwarves own journal paints them in the wrong, so why are you still denying it?

I didn't comment on that event. If I did, it would be to shake my head out how utterly out of character it is for dwarves, and that Blizz needed a vehicle to rile up Horde players for the idiot faction war.

I commented on how some Horde fans will only accept complete and total agreement or they will rage. You've kindly provided an example in this thread.

[Powerogue]

I didn't comment on that event. If I did, it would be to shake my head out how utterly out of character it is for dwarves, and that Blizz needed a vehicle to rile up Horde players for the idiot faction war.

I commented on how some Horde fans will only accept complete and total agreement or they will rage. You've kindly provided an example in this thread.

The ultimate irony is that, having now met him, the character that he named himself after appears to be comparatively merciful, contented to witness the deaths of those who wronged him before passing, not demanding any more. Lok'tar ogar and all that. That is the end of his story, and the end of the Stonespire's pursuit of vengeance.

[Mehrunes]

I didn't comment on that event. If I did, it would be to shake my head out how utterly out of character it is for dwarves, and that Blizz needed a vehicle to rile up Horde players for the idiot faction war.

Except for the part where Dwarves did the same exact "we're entitled to digging for Titan junk, Horde living in the area be damned" shtick on two more occassions (and many more times to third parties).

Don't conflate your own willful ignorance that exists so you can whitewash the Alliance with the conspiracy of Blizzard being out to get the Alliance by writing them "out of character" in the name of HORDE BIAS.

I commented on how some Horde fans will only accept complete and total agreement or they will rage. You've kindly provided an example in this thread.

Given how the Dwarven journals that @Gann Stonespire already mentioned paint the Dwarves in a bad light as well, this retort of yours is completely devoid of merit.

Both in-game perspectives put the Dwarves in the wrong (making your earlier remark of "You're supposed to fully agree that the Horde's version of $InsertEventHere$ is correct" awfully misplaced in context as well, but who'd ever care about such a pesky thing).

So @Powerogue trying to vindicate the Dwarves while throwing around the idea that maybe the onus of stopping the "cycle of hatred" should have been on Gann when the Dwarves were foreign invaders isn't just them disagreeing with the Horde perspectives, it's them trying to push a perspectives that goes against anything show in game, Horde and Alliance alike. For rather obvious reasons.

[Minikin]

I didn't comment on that event. If I did, it would be to shake my head out how utterly out of character it is for dwarves, and that Blizz needed a vehicle to rile up Horde players for the idiot faction war.

I commented on how some Horde fans will only accept complete and total agreement or they will rage. You've kindly provided an example in this thread.

i disagree. if we can blame the orcs for going into ashenvale for lumber as them starting shit, then not blaming the dwarves for constantly harassing tauren with their disregard and slaughter would be a huge double standard. Honestly as far as mulgore and barrens go there is no excuse for what the dwarves did. they started the problem and deal with it in the worst possible way.

[Feanoro]

i disagree. if we can blame the orcs for going into ashenvale for lumber as them starting shit, then not blaming the dwarves for constantly harassing tauren with their disregard and slaughter would be a huge double standard. Honestly as far as mulgore and barrens go there is no excuse for what the dwarves did. they started the problem and deal with it in the worst possible way.

Er, where did I say the dwarves weren't to blame?

I said it's out of character for the average WoW dwarves, to give the Horde an event to get support for the faction war. That doesn't mean I'm excusing them.

[Minikin]

Er, where did I say the dwarves weren't to blame?

I said it's out of character for the average WoW dwarves, to give the Horde an event to get support for the faction war. That doesn't mean I'm excusing them.

i mean it more as a more as a definitive, this is bad end of story. Maybe im getting the wrong notion, but I just like to hear an absolute "its bad" rather than an explanation of, its out of character or why its out of character.

[Rozz]

Remember to stay civil during discussion. Be mindful of how you're addressing each other.

[Powerogue]

Finally finished the Southern Barrens questing. I had expected more of the same from Vendetta Point and the refugee camp, but it seems like Gann Stonespire is the only NPC who took Taurajo personally. Even including the four named NPCs who died. None cried for vengeance, and none blamed Baine at any point. We did kill Hawthorne, calling him "the butcher of Taurajo" but that was just some orc commander ordering it.

Talking with some more tauren between there and Thousand Needles, I get the impression that violence and hatred are against the Earthmother's teachings. Even with Grimtotem literally invading, it was more "Earthmother forgive us for what we must do to defend ourselves" rather than "hell yeah let's bash some skulls!"

On the note of the cycle of hatred, I get the impression the quests with Mankrik were intended to be the last stop on the questing path, and it ends on a very somber note about losing oneself to vengeance that I find really poignant. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mahka%27s_Plea

[Minikin]

Finally finished the Southern Barrens questing. I had expected more of the same from Vendetta Point and the refugee camp, but it seems like Gann Stonespire is the only NPC who took Taurajo personally. Even including the four named NPCs who died. None cried for vengeance, and none blamed Baine at any point. We did kill Hawthorne, calling him "the butcher of Taurajo" but that was just some orc commander ordering it.

Talking with some more tauren between there and Thousand Needles, I get the impression that violence and hatred are against the Earthmother's teachings. Even with Grimtotem literally invading, it was more "Earthmother forgive us for what we must do to defend ourselves" rather than "hell yeah let's bash some skulls!"

On the note of the cycle of hatred, I get the impression the quests with Mankrik were intended to be the last stop on the questing path, and it ends on a very somber note about losing oneself to vengeance that I find really poignant. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mahka%27s_Plea

IIRC until the horde came along the Tauren's solution to the centaurs constantly harassing them was just moving away from them. They did not really fight back or become a force until the orcs stood with them to do so.

[Super Dickmann]

Finally finished the Southern Barrens questing. I had expected more of the same from Vendetta Point and the refugee camp, but it seems like Gann Stonespire is the only NPC who took Taurajo personally. Even including the four named NPCs who died. None cried for vengeance, and none blamed Baine at any point. We did kill Hawthorne, calling him "the butcher of Taurajo" but that was just some orc commander ordering it.

Talking with some more tauren between there and Thousand Needles, I get the impression that violence and hatred are against the Earthmother's teachings. Even with Grimtotem literally invading, it was more "Earthmother forgive us for what we must do to defend ourselves" rather than "hell yeah let's bash some skulls!"

On the note of the cycle of hatred, I get the impression the quests with Mankrik were intended to be the last stop on the questing path, and it ends on a very somber note about losing oneself to vengeance that I find really poignant. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Mahka%27s_Plea

None blame Baine about it because at the time the quest was written, the dummied out content regarding Baine's reaction was his staying at the gates to defend was what was meant there and after it was cut because someone decided Baine was going to need a vasectomy, his response was nothing and therefore he had zero role in the zone. The zone was not written with the intention of Baine to have exiled those people and cowered behind the Gate, that's what was pasted in as his actions later, ergo, nobody at the time could react to it as as far as the zone writing was concerned, it hadn't happened. His decision being to exile the tauren was decided retroactively in Tides of War, hence the incongruity involved - the actual Southern Barrens questline doesn't mention Baine once, it concerns itself entirely with war. You've tried very hard to spin here ineffectually, the peak of it probably being the bit about the Stonespire or revenge and equating a lone tauren with a rifle with the army contingent of dwarves wiping out a tribe. The Stonespire weren't driven out, they're called a memory and Gann isn't some kind of radical dealing equivalent harm, he killed Marley Twinbraid because that's about what was in his power to do. Nor does he have some epiphany about revenge at the end, as no one in their right mind would given the damage there and that he was demonstrably in the right - as Gann the poster already told and linked to you, the questline concludes with you being sent to Dustwallow to continue the fight. Gann is not upset about Taurajo, which I'm fairly sure he doesn't mention, he's upset about his tribe being dead.

Regarding Taurajo, the quests have you visit the people who got firebombed, kill the looters and then kill Hawthorne - you're, separate from this, also shown that disregard for the local tauren was already a feature with the whole Stonespire/Bael Modan questline. The quest begins with you fighting them off from the gates, the Gates having been shown as ineffectual in the process and continues. Every tauren NPC who has something to say at Vendetta Point mentions driving off the Alliance or gives quests to that effect and Vendetta Point sequentially takes place after Una'fe where the tauren first bring people over and then you're shown why it is they were driven out and the goal to fight back.

Your damage control is beyond poor, and your comment about the Earthmother is also wrong - there is no tauren line about self-defense being disrespect for the land. Even in BFA the Earthmother is entirely on board with helping out those two tauren fight the Alliance years later, and the reason the tauren didn't fight the centaur was because of the relative lack of power, not because of a lack of willingness to do so. Baine himself when the Grimtotem ignore his exile order, kills the dude responsible and also orders the Venture Co and Bael'dun miners killed and the only one who had any objection to killing the quillboar was him. The tauren in general aren't aggressors or conquerors, but they aren't a placid herd who don't defend themselves or their land and they are never portrayed as such within the Cataclysm questline - nor is such a behaviour shown as being desirable within those quests. There is no tauren who is portrayed as wanting to take over human lands - but virtually every tauren is for expelling the Alliance from the Barrens, because they invaded tauren territory and killed tauren and were part of an ongoing takeover of their land. That, through retroactive continuity, Baine's response was to prevent said pushback and to instead cower behind a wall that we know for a fact didn't work to stop the invaders, and that his stance doesn't represent the NPCs within is why he gets shit - the way he is written is not congruous with the content, but neither is that content retconned, making Baine look terrible where a total absence of his involvement, as was the original, would have caused no harm to his image.

As a side note, Mankrik should avoid marrying Mahka to not curse her to become a meme, but should hook up.

@Feanoro

The dwarves attacking the tauren and looting their shit was entirely in line with the Sovereign Imperative of the dwarves in vanilla which was to conquer and exploit territory because of its benefit to the dwarves and because they were more advanced than anyone else. This aspect was ditched later on because god forbid anyone in the Alliance actually proactive expand their sphere of influence on the basis of a reasoning that disagrees with a Californian writer, but it was a recurring aspect of them in Vanilla.

[Syegfryed]

The dwarves attacking the tauren and looting their shit was entirely in line with the Sovereign Imperative of the dwarves in vanilla which was to conquer and exploit territory because of its benefit to the dwarves and because they were more advanced than anyone else. This aspect was ditched later on because god forbid anyone in the Alliance actually proactive expand their sphere of influence on the basis of a reasoning that disagrees with a Californian writer, but it was a recurring aspect of them in Vanilla.

they tried to do the same shit in alterac, but they got screwed by the frostwolves before tried anything funny, sadly the taurens give then the benefit of doubt