What is considered a Kingdom in Azeroth

[Aucald]

maybe there are rules like in lordaeron where calia was excluded from the succession because she was female. or there are evidencies of the contrary?

Well not for Kul Tiras, apparently, as Katherine became the Lord Admiral on the occasion of Daelin's death - so it's definitely not a case of any gender bias. Both Lordaeron and Kul Tiras seemed to follow the general rule of English male-preference primogeniture common before the 20th century. Basically put, the crown descended down the ladder to the eldest living son first, then it would pass on to the current queen or eldest daughter if a living male heir was not present.

[ravenmoon]

So I recently had this argument on my classic server where someone said that Theramore is NOT considered a kingdom. Where in real life a kingdom requires a royal line and whatnot in Azeroth its not as simple so I'm wondering what is or is not considered a kingdom in at least the human civilizations of Warcraft and possibly others.

Theramore was a kingdom of it's own, this was the new alliance nation... the Eastern kingdoms were abandoned and sconsidered scourge land, both horde and alliance were settled in Kalimdor to start a new life.

Theramore had humans, high elves, dwarves and gnomes

Orgrimmar had orcs, goblins, trolls, orges and locals tauren.

locals night elves joined the alliance. 5 races each.

When wow was developed, they decided to use EK originally a higher level zone into starting areas for the races - this changed the dynamic of what Theramore was presented with and became.

[A Chozo]

It's so fucking weird.

We have the Zandalari Empire.
Who's ruled by Queen Talanji.

Shouldn't it be Zandalari Kingdom or Empress Talanji? Similar thing to Nazjatar, where Azshara is queen but also empress.

[TheFirstOnes]

Theramore is basically a City, let's be honest. The same thing applies with Menethil Habor (A port city), technically Dalaran, etc...

Kingdom's are mostly ruled by Bloodline, or rule over an area of land. Stormwind, Kul'tiras, Silvermoon, Karabor, Bladespire, Gilneas, etc are all Kingdoms because they are either ruled by a King or Queen, or they rule over a massive portion of land. I only don't count Theramore because a LOT of territory surrounding it was conflicted. Not really all out Alliance territory.

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Oh, and it's also in fuckin' ruins. Lmao

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It's so fucking weird.

We have the Zandalari Empire.
Who's ruled by Queen Talanji.

Shouldn't it be Zandalari Kingdom or Empress Talanji? Similar thing to Nazjatar, where Azshara is queen but also empress.

Azshara is called "Queen" by N'Zoth. If the Black Empire ever actually came out, N'Zoth would've either betrayed her anyway (Which ended up happening), or she would THEN become an empress. She was never an empress throughout the game's lore though, or at least not in official terms.

Talanji, I technically agree with though. Though, Zuldazar and Dazar'alor might purpose different rules from other "empires".

[Zuben]

I always took Theramore as a sovereign settlement without ties to royal lineages or organisations regardless of Jaina's status. I guess she could have founded it as a Kul Tiran colony, but it never came off as such to me. I don't really know what it takes to create a new kingdom.

[Thage]

I mean if we're going to be pedantic and Theramore is a kingdom it would be more akin to a principality given Jaina's hereditary position and Theramore's limited political and geographic power.

That said until BFA I can see the argument that Theramore wouldn't have been a kingdom since apparently Jaina has been a persona non grata in Kul'tiras since WCIII (and presumably not having a recognised title as a result).

In fairness, Jaina's title is recognized just about everywhere else, and as ruler of Theramore she could be considered landed and titled. As an autonomous, independent city-state, Theramore wouldn't necessarily need links to an existing kingdom so long as others in the Alliance recognize her nobility (which Ironforge, Darnassus, and Stormwind all did; even the Horde recognized her title and Theramore's sovereignty up to and including while Garrosh was working to wipe Theramore off the map).

Pure conjecture here, but I think Bolvar may have given Jaina a title and a place in the House of Nobles as a symbolic gesture during his regency, which would explain why Jaina seemed to recognize Varian and Anduin as "my King" as though she were a vassal, which would make Theramore as a city-state technically a Stormwind colony. It would also explain why, despite Jaina's famous insistence on peace prior to Theramore's destruction, Theramore was actively operating under Stormwind's guidance during the renewed Alliance-Horde war. It's a moot point now, of course, with Jaina having been brought back into the line of succession and inheriting her parents' position as Lord Admiral, but prior by all accounts the only way her behavior in Wrath of the Lich King on through Warlords of Draenor makes sense is if she were a member of Stormwind's House of Nobles and thus a direct vassal, especially with the RPG lore (that she was the lynchpin tying the Eastern and Western Alliances together) rendered non-canon and removing most of her political power within the Alliance accordingly.

[TheFirstOnes]

Theramore was a kingdom of it's own, this was the new alliance nation... the Eastern kingdoms were abandoned and sconsidered scourge land, both horde and alliance were settled in Kalimdor to start a new life.

Theramore had humans, high elves, dwarves and gnomes

Orgrimmar had orcs, goblins, trolls, orges and locals tauren.

locals night elves joined the alliance. 5 races each.

When wow was developed, they decided to use EK originally a higher level zone into starting areas for the races - this changed the dynamic of what Theramore was presented with and became.

Ah yes, Theramore, where Humans somehow forgot that Stormwind was in the process of being rebuilt. smh

[Thage]

I always took Theramore as a sovereign settlement without ties to royal lineages or organisations regardless of Jaina's status. I guess she could have founded it as a Kul Tiran colony, but it never came off as such to me. I don't really know what it takes to create a new kingdom.

At the very least, she was adamant about it not being a Kul'Tiran colony, best exemplified with her going to the Horde for help as Daelin forcibly annexed Theramore and pressed its troops into attacking the Horde, jeopardizing the peace that had been established after Hyjal.

[Ardenaso]

She was never an empress throughout the game's lore though, or at least not in official terms.

that's weird, one of the Naga Sea Witch's lines in Warcraft 3 is "for the Empress!"

[WaltherLeopold]

There's a few other references to it throughout the Warcraft canon, as well. I don't think it was used often, but it was used more than once. Someone mentioned Dawn of the Aspects above, and I think it's referred to as a kingdom somewhere in War Crimes as well.

I stand corrected then, however it never seems to have been actualized in the game anywhere. That said, it certainly doesn't ever appear to have had the infrastructure of a nation/kingdom, no court, fiefs and/or land to tax, no legal system or prisons etc. The RPG fleshed these things out, but never carried over through the decanonization.

Regardless, I don't think it's contentious, evidently it's up to speculation and perspective, some might see it as a kingdom, some might - if speaking from a roleplaying perspective.

[Saltysquidoon]

In fairness, Jaina's title is recognized just about everywhere else, and as ruler of Theramore she could be considered landed and titled. As an autonomous, independent city-state, Theramore wouldn't necessarily need links to an existing kingdom so long as others in the Alliance recognize her nobility (which Ironforge, Darnassus, and Stormwind all did; even the Horde recognized her title and Theramore's sovereignty up to and including while Garrosh was working to wipe Theramore off the map).

I still think irrespective of where her noble authority flows the title of principality or dutchy would have been more appropriate than kingdom.

I mean theramore is pretty explicitly a city sate with almost no ability to project force, a very limited population and what I assume is a reliance on external trade to eat.

[TheFirstOnes]

that's weird, one of the Naga Sea Witch's lines in Warcraft 3 is "for the Empress!"

Blizz likes to change shit. She's now just a "queen". But you're right. She was called an empress in WC3.

[Aucald]

One can be both a queen (or king) and an empress (or emperor) simultaneously, such as the case of Queen Victoria of England when she was declared as an empress at Delhi in 1877 - she still kept and used the title of "queen," but she also ruled as an empress of the British Empire consisting of the dominions, colonies, protectorates, mandates, and other territories ruled or administered by the United Kingdom at that time.

[mickybrighteyes]

In wow, "kingdom" is a weird term cause it doesn't require "king" or "queen" or royal lineage. Dalaran was a kingdom and I think technically still is despite being reduced to a floating magical city. Note, dalaran was run by mages rather than royalty.

So far as I can understand... a "kingdom" is a kingdom when the story says it is and doesn't require lineage or bloodline as justification.

[cparle87]

Ah yes, Theramore, where Humans somehow forgot that Stormwind was in the process of being rebuilt. smh

What does that have to do with anything?

[Stardrift]

What's a theramore? Is it that gaping hole in time-space?

[TheFirstOnes]

What does that have to do with anything?

Cause that was originally the main Human city in WC3 before Blizz decided to give us SW again for WoW. Lore-wise, they just kinda forgot that Stormwind was being rebuilt till before Classic. Then, they knew and did the good shit with the EK Humans.

[cparle87]

Cause that was originally the main Human city in WC3 before Blizz decided to give us SW again for WoW. Lore-wise, they just kinda forgot that Stormwind was being rebuilt till before Classic. Then, they knew and did the good shit with the EK Humans.

The humans of Theramore were from Lordaeron, Dalaran, and other areas up north. Stormwind was not involved at all in WC3. At least in the RPG Theramore was pretty much miniature Lordaeron 2.0. You can read all about it in Theramore's wowpedia page. Your argument is like if Mexico was going to be blown off the face of the Earth and all its citizens evacuated to some imaginary uninhabitated land you'd be all like "Why didn't you all move to Spain?"

[Combatbutler]

Theramore was technically considered a kingdom, given that Jaina is herself in a royal line (that of Kul Tiras and the ruling Proudmoore lineage), which would make Theramore essentially a royal nation-state. I'm not really sure if the "Kingdom of Theramore" really extended much beyond said technicality, as it acted more or less as a city-state and an Alliance protectorate once the Alliance reconvened with its power moved to Stormwind under the Wrynns.

Jaina isn't a royal though, she is a noble, Kul'tiras has no royalty. The nobles elect their leader.

[Aucald]

Jaina isn't a royal though, she is a noble, Kul'tiras has no royalty. The nobles elect their leader.

Same difference insofar as this context is concerned.