Tearing down historical statues the European edition

[AeneasBK]

Title should really be "west european edition"

don't try this shit in Eastern Europe if you care about your health...

About 2% of the thread has had anything to do with Europe. The title has basically been ironic since about page 5

[josykay]

Title should really be "west european edition"

don't try this shit in Eastern Europe if you care about your health...

Eastern Europe are experts at tearing down statues of Lenin, Stalin...

[JohnBrown1917]

Eastern Europe are experts at tearing down statues of Lenin, Stalin...

yeah but genocide is good when its done by conservatives.

[Felya]

lol like this is going to be limited to monuments hahah

Can you explain how this is not just you expressing a deep, illogical fear?

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don't try this shit in Eastern Europe if you care about your health...

Posted pictures of Stalin and Lenin statues being torn down a few pages again. Try again... or better yet... complain about Iraq’s symbols of Hussein being distorted... because a lot of Eastern Europe was destroying Russian monuments in fairly recent history. Oh and one of those monuments wasn’t in Eastern Europe, but built by an Eastern European... it’s why Hasselhoff is big in Germany... he sang on top of the crumbling monument...

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3mil Hong Kong citizens have been offered UK citizenship to escape China.

You do realise that right... The UK takes its promises that seriously that dispute China breaking the treaty even under an anti immigrant con gov we will do anything in our power to uphold a promise.

You are talking about the nation that didn't nead to be in ww1 or ww2 but on bith occasions entered a world war ecaude we had defense treaty with Belgium and Poland.

That’s an interesting defense of colonialism of the British empire. An empire that literally had a nick name, due to their colonialism, of “the sun never sets on the British empire. Want to talk about the opium trade?

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yeah but genocide is good when its done by conservatives.

Well... no... A large portion of Eastern Europe, was either Russian occupied or Russian controlled. When communism fell, the destruction of Lenin, Marx and Stalin statues, symbolized the freedom of people escaping clutches of communism. Having statues of communist leaders in Eastern Europe is kind of similar... people being freed of oppression by slave lords protected by government, versus oppression of everyone... equally of course... but, at least we all were not slaves... unless you count Syberia, but that’s not Eastern Europe... is it?

These statues were not destroyed because of genocide of Jews and Gypsies... It was the oppression of the populace. You think Europe will ever have “Romani Lives Matter”?

[Monster Hunter]

Can you explain how this is not just you expressing a deep, illogical fear?

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Posted pictures of Stalin and Lenin statues being torn down a few pages again. Try again... or better yet... complain about Iraq’s symbols of Hussein being distorted... because a lot of Eastern Europe was destroying Russian monuments in fairly recent history. Oh and one of those monuments wasn’t in Eastern Europe, but built by an Eastern European... it’s why Hasselhoff is big in Germany... he sang on top of the crumbling monument...

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That’s an interesting defense of colonialism of the British empire. An empire that literally had a nick name, due to their colonialism, of “the sun never sets on the British empire. Want to talk about the opium trade?

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Well... no... A large portion of Eastern Europe, was either Russian occupied or Russian controlled. When communism fell, the destruction of Lenin, Marx and Stalin statues, symbolized the freedom of people escaping clutches of communism. Having statues of communist leaders in Eastern Europe is kind of similar... people being freed of oppression by slave lords protected by government, versus oppression of everyone... equally of course... but, at least we all were not slaves... unless you count Syberia, but that’s not Eastern Europe... is it?

These statues were not destroyed because of genocide of Jews and Gypsies... It was the oppression of the populace. You think Europe will ever have “Romani Lives Matter”?

We can talk about the opium trade if you want but do you really want to be defending conservative drug laws?

Or would you prefer taking position of defending another far older empire that was the target of the opium trade and there extream protectionist practises that drove the creation of the opium black market? The same sort of protectionism trump seems to love.

But then ofc no matter the outcome of such a debate, its rendered slightly mute when you point out the opium trade was created by the east Indian trading company that hadn't yet by that time been dissolved into the British empire and was still acting with almost complete autonamy in the region, not something I will defend ofc, I think the trading company's are a good example of why a company should hae a private army and navy and why company's shouldn't have rulership over nations and peoples. But then parliament eventually realised that and bought the company out and dissolved it in the end.

Either way, I have found its almost pointless debating history with Americans as they have such an infantile understanding of even there own history and seem incapable of grasping nuances and time lines that can span many century's.

[Felya]

We can talk about the opium trade if you want but do you really want to be defending conservative drug laws?

I’m sorry... If I oppose people being forced into opium trade, I am defending conservative drug laws? That’s a shitty strawman, even for these forums.

Or would you prefer taking position of defending another far older empire that was the target of the opium trade and there extream protectionist practises that drove the creation of the opium black market? The same sort of protectionism trump seems to love.

Uhm... no, I’d rather state my opinions and have you state yours. I am not interested in you stating your opinion of what my opinion is. I’m saying what the British did was fucked. What exactly is your opinion? lol

Edit: To make it easier... Would it be fair for me to assume you are projecting?

[Monster Hunter]

I’m sorry... If I oppose people being forced into opium trade, I am defending conservative drug laws? That’s a shitty strawman, even for these forums.



Uhm... no, I’d rather state my opinions and have you state yours. I am not interested in you stating your opinion of what my opinion is. I’m saying what the British did was fucked. What exactly is your opinion? lol

Edit: To make it easier... Would it be fair for me to assume you are projecting?

How were they forced?

No one forced them to take opium in exchange for tea and goods, all Britain cared about was trading in something other than silver which we didn't have alot of.

They had a high demand for opium, we had Alot of opium and wanted tea, if it was any other goods we wouldn't be having this debate, and that's the funny thing, opium gets the limelight but the British traded alot of banned goods into China in exchange for tea, imperial China at that time had become what we would describe as hyper Conservative and very stagnant, it was in a period of heavy confusionism which was akin to the heavy prohibition era of America, which was also made attempts to flood with beer under the government's nose.

But all this is actually not relevant to the British empire, as it was the east India company in charge out there at this time and was almost entirely autonomous, so its kind of like blaming America for something Microsoft did.

Also that whole sun never set thing was not a unique saying for the British empire, they only started saying that commonly in the 19th century, befor us the Spanish used it to describe there empire under Phillip II and befor that the Habsburgs used it under Charles v and if we go waaaaayyy back the first use was by Xerxes I of the person empire in this text.

γῆν τὴν Περσίδα ἀποδέξομεν τῷ Διὸς αἰθέρι ὁμουρέουσαν. οὐ γὰρ δὴ χώρην γε οὐδεμίαν κατόψεται ἥλιος ὅμουρον ἐοῦσαν τῇ ἡμετέρῃ

[Ihavewaffles]

Eastern Europe are experts at tearing down statues of Lenin, Stalin...

those are foreign statues, and you know damn well I wasn't referring to them.

[Themius]

those are foreign statues, and you know damn well I wasn't referring to them.

You know that statues of confederate leaders are also in a way foreign statues.

[Yadryonych]

You know that statues of confederate leaders are also in a way foreign statues.

They are native to their respective states, though

[Shadowferal]

And the crazy continues; Frederick Douglass statue vandalized, ripped from base in New York
A statue of Frederick Douglass was ripped from its pedestal in upstate New York on Sunday, the day marking the 168th anniversary of the American abolitionist giving one of his most seminal speeches condemning slavery.

Carvin Eison, a leader of a project that brought a Douglas statue to the park in the city, told the Rochester Democrat & Chronicle that another statue would have to take its place because the damage was too significant to repair.
"It's particularly painful that it happened at this time," Eison told the newspaper. "It's really sad because here in Rochester the statue of Frederick Douglass has always been a face of good."

[Draco-Onis]

And the crazy continues; Frederick Douglass statue vandalized, ripped from base in New York
A statue of Frederick Douglass was ripped from its pedestal in upstate New York on Sunday, the day marking the 168th anniversary of the American abolitionist giving one of his most seminal speeches condemning slavery.

Carvin Eison, a leader of a project that brought a Douglas statue to the park in the city, told the Rochester Democrat & Chronicle that another statue would have to take its place because the damage was too significant to repair.
"It's particularly painful that it happened at this time," Eison told the newspaper. "It's really sad because here in Rochester the statue of Frederick Douglass has always been a face of good."

You do know that there are right wing terrorist getting involved in this now right? Several have already been arrested. In red states armed millitias are actively doing statues patrols and god knows what else.

[Shadowferal]

You do know that there are right wing terrorist getting involved in this now right? Several have already been arrested. In red states armed millitias are actively doing statues patrols and god knows what else.

Been thinking that.

[Felya]

They are native to their respective states, though

Uhm... confederates were native to those states? What were native Americans? Why were they American, before becoming confederate, but are native to the states? It was an uprising against the US, it wasn’t native in any sense of the word. You mean that’s where the uprising attacking the US originated.

[Thekri]

You do know that there are right wing terrorist getting involved in this now right? Several have already been arrested. In red states armed millitias are actively doing statues patrols and god knows what else.

You never know on stuff like this. I would put it about 50% it was right wing counter-protestors attempting to cause trouble, and 50% it was idiots that don't understand history. Because about 90% of America has absolutely no idea of anything about history, and old statues are not typically well labeled with context of who the person was.

[Yadryonych]

Uhm... confederates were native to those states?

Yes. General Lee, for example, was born in Virginia, lived in Virginia, died in Virginia, the moument of him is in Virginia. Not foreign at all.

[Draco-Onis]

You never know on stuff like this. I would put it about 50% it was right wing counter-protestors attempting to cause trouble, and 50% it was idiots that don't understand history. Because about 90% of America has absolutely no idea of anything about history, and old statues are not typically well labeled with context of who the person was.

True most people don't know who these people are, in my opinion though the whole historical statue thing is weird in general. I don't mind them but it seems archaic since we now have the internet and other means of learning about these people.

[Mayhem]

True most people don't know who these people are, in my opinion though the whole historical statue thing is weird in general. I don't mind them but it seems archaic since we now have the internet and other means of learning about these people.

Just replace them with QR codes, which give a description and explanation about what how why when.

[Themius]

Yes. General Lee, for example, was born in Virginia, lived in Virginia, died in Virginia, the moument of him is in Virginia. Not foreign at all.

When Virginia became confederate states they became a foreign opposition.

Is this rocket science?

[Felya]

Yes. General Lee, for example, was born in Virginia, lived in Virginia, died in Virginia, the moument of him is in Virginia. Not foreign at all.

He fought against America... wtf?