Another "I can't breath" death: Police Reform & Protests in the USA

[Theodarzna]

The issue at hand isn't that there is plenty of truth contained within the book. There is, a painful amount of it. The contention that I and others raise, however, is that you cannot apply the same mentality and life experiences and views to every single person of a skin group even if there is a shared common backdrop (which is, in itself, contentious). And that ignoring those individual difference and plastering over them does nothing to move things in the right direction.

I think a big issue with DiAngelo, and the pantheon of Anti-Racism HR manuals is that their core contention is racial essentialism. We get into a bizarre territory where their core claims if one really follows that logic can also justify segregation; after all, if say one category of humans is permanently spiritually contaminated by racism; there are only three options one has from that position. Option one is the one Robin DiAngelo likes, which is to pay Robin DiAngelo to remove your Racism-Thetans, or momentarily suppress them, Option two is full segregation so Black people need not suffer anymore office place microaggressions, or Option three we stay together and black people just learn to deal with it.

The book, as is all the HR Diversity Industry books, follow a particular world view, basically telling bosses that their workforce is infected with racist-thetans and that only by paying professional credentialled experts in Anti-Racism can these thetans be fought off for a while. Racism becomes all-important, but also purely individual spiritual battlefield with facilitating high paid corporate consultants to help you manage a personal spiritual corruption.

Basically, if you want to deal with racism, Touré Reed and his father Adolph Reed are a better benchmark to follow than HR Diversity hucksters.


Kendi, Coates, Wise, DiAngelo, Elliot, Krenshaw, all have a vision of racism and how to deal with it that doesn't involve actually resolving anything, their view is essentially the view the necessitates them being employed forever and sustains the industry they have helped to create. Touré Reed, I buy into far more intensely for dealing with racism because you know, he isn't trying to offer a case for the continued existence of a multi-billion dollar consultancy industry he happens to belong to, DiAngelo is trying to sell you her services, Reed is not.

[Endus]

The argument being presented by her, and now supported by you, is that how we assess people as individuals is shaped by our racial group. That how we treat people is conditional on our race, that how I as a visibly white person treat another as an individual is contingent on their racial group. Conditional individualism.

The issue at hand isn't that there is plenty of truth contained within the book. There is, a painful amount of it. The contention that I and others raise, however, is that you cannot apply the same mentality and life experiences and views to every single person of a skin group even if there is a shared common backdrop (which is, in itself, contentious). And that ignoring those individual difference and plastering over them does nothing to move things in the right direction.

And that is not, from what I see, what DiAngelo is even arguing in the first place. Hence my point.

Just that one cannot divorce societal-level observations from the individual, because the former shape and define the latter. It's less that it's formed "by our racial group", and more that society itself is made up of a wide range of power dynamics, and those all form the baseline within which we construct our own individual perspectives and identities. The idea that those are not shaped by that society, fundamentally, is baffling.

Are you really going to insist that I dig up the quote where I asked you on this, why you snip particular quotes directed at you while keeping others? To be clear, I don't have any issue with it. It makes things more neat and tidy. Hell.. you did it just now.

In my own quoting, like this? I cut out responses I either don't deem worth responding to, or to which I have nothing to contribute, or where I feel we're talking at odds and I don't see further discussion to be worth anyone's time. I'll freely admit I'm bad at the latter when someone makes shit personal with me, so this is very much a "what I try and do" rather than "what I am infallibly accomplishing".

Same for the two quote sections I cut out here; I felt I'd already answered the first between my earlier post and my first response here, and the second was just fairly pointless and I didn't consider it worth pursuing.

I'd rather focus on the interesting points of discussion and try and trim down my posts where I can, because I can and will enter "wall o' text" mode at the drop of a hat as it is.

[Themius]

So the army is now being trained on how to avoid trouble with police officers...

Highly trained specialist are being trained so low educated non specialist don’t kill them...

Something seems wrong with that picture.

[Santti]

So the army is now being trained on how to avoid trouble with police officers...

Highly trained specialist are being trained so low educated non specialist don’t kill them...

Something seems wrong with that picture.

Damn. I can't help but wonder how many people still need to die in the hands of your police, before this kind of bullshit is finally over. I doubt what's going on right now after Floyd's death is nearly enough. We're just getting started.

[Zython]

I think a big issue with DiAngelo, and the pantheon of Anti-Racism HR manuals is that their core contention is racial essentialism. We get into a bizarre territory where their core claims if one really follows that logic can also justify segregation; after all, if say one category of humans is permanently spiritually contaminated by racism; there are only three options one has from that position. Option one is the one Robin DiAngelo likes, which is to pay Robin DiAngelo to remove your Racism-Thetans, or momentarily suppress them, Option two is full segregation so Black people need not suffer anymore office place microaggressions, or Option three we stay together and black people just learn to deal with it.

The book, as is all the HR Diversity Industry books, follow a particular world view, basically telling bosses that their workforce is infected with racist-thetans and that only by paying professional credentialled experts in Anti-Racism can these thetans be fought off for a while. Racism becomes all-important, but also purely individual spiritual battlefield with facilitating high paid corporate consultants to help you manage a personal spiritual corruption.

Basically, if you want to deal with racism, Touré Reed and his father Adolph Reed are a better benchmark to follow than HR Diversity hucksters.

Kendi, Coates, Wise, DiAngelo, Elliot, Krenshaw, all have a vision of racism and how to deal with it that doesn't involve actually resolving anything, their view is essentially the view the necessitates them being employed forever and sustains the industry they have helped to create. Touré Reed, I buy into far more intensely for dealing with racism because you know, he isn't trying to offer a case for the continued existence of a multi-billion dollar consultancy industry he happens to belong to, DiAngelo is trying to sell you her services, Reed is not.

It's to prove that you're basing the book on things you heard second hand, rather than reading the book yourself. And considering that you refuse to engage with me directly, my reasons for suspecting that you're arguing in bad faith are valid. And I think anyone not trying to get into your pants would agree with me.

And what do you know?

- - - Updated - - -

Because you and he are possibly utilizing the same version/edition. People have a tendency to engage in projection.

? I never claimed to own the book. I just called @Theodarzna's bluff on actually having read it. And I've been proven right on this.

[Theodarzna]

? I never claimed to own the book. I just called @Theodarzna's bluff on actually having read it. And I've been proven right on this.

Lol. You've never read it, and asking someone to cite word for word a random page is rather pathetic. Like you can't refute anything I've said, or engage with it. So, you try and conflate possibly not having in possession a book, or not having the same edition as you as some epic win. You've got nothing.

[Levelfive]

Lol. You've never read it, and asking someone to cite word for word a random page is rather pathetic. Like you can't refute anything I've said, or engage with it. So, you try and conflate possibly not having in possession a book, or not having the same edition as you as some epic win. You've got nothing.

Your entire argument was attributing her position to a profit motive, and quoting a couple Matt Taibbi paragraphs. Good job, though, in not trying to pass it off as your own work! Even if it's just so you can leverage Taibbi's supposed leftiness as a different kind of cudgel--still, not plagiarism! Baby steps!

[Zython]

Lol. You've never read it, and asking someone to cite word for word a random page is rather pathetic.

And you couldn't even do that.

Like you can't refute anything I've said, or engage with it. So, you try and conflate possibly not having in possession a book, or not having the same edition as you as some epic win. You've got nothing.

I could, but the problem is you're just going to ignore what I say, like you always do.

[Theodarzna]

Your entire argument was attributing her position to a profit motive, and quoting a couple Matt Taibbi paragraphs. Good job, though, in not trying to pass it off as your own work! Even if it's just so you can leverage Taibbi's supposed leftiness as a different kind of cudgel--still, not plagiarism! Baby steps!

Yes, how dare I point out that the logic of her book and its core claims essentially negate the possibility of resolving racism in a material way, and moreover create an internal justification for highering her to help her cleanse your individually corrupted racism-thetans, that if you deny you have just proved you have them really badly.

Also, Endus even acknowledged this book isn't about fighting racism, its about firing people.

You guys are simply angry I pointed this out, that there are better ways to deal with racism, and funny enough we should probably try the ways suggested by people who aren't aiming to profit off of the solution. Which DiAngelo and company themselves admit there is no solution, just an eternal struggle session against the Thetans; all under the panopticon of HR surveillance. Which by the way happens to fatten their bank accounts, you know DiAngelo has a networth in the millions right?

I think some people didn't like my pointing out that Robin DiAngelo is basically selling Dianetics for Human Resources Stans; and that she is one step away from making it a full-on Multi-Level Marketing scam, think about it, it can be the Essential Oils for Woke People.

[Zython]

Yes, how dare I point out that the logic of her book and its core claims essentially negate the possibility of resolving racism in a material way, and moreover create an internal justification for highering her to help her cleanse your individually corrupted racism-thetans, that if you deny you have just proved you have them really badly.

Also, Endus even acknowledged this book isn't about fighting racism, its about firing people.

You guys are simply angry I pointed this out, that there are better ways to deal with racism, and funny enough we should probably try the ways suggested by people who aren't aiming to profit off of the solution. Which DiAngelo and company themselves admit there is no solution, just an eternal struggle session against the Thetans; all under the panopticon of HR surveillance.

I think some people didn't like my pointing out that Robin DiAngelo is basically selling Dianetics for Human Resources Stans; and that she is one step away from making it a full-on Multi-Level Marketing scam, think about it, it can be the Essential Oils for Woke People.

Let's assume this is all true.

Why is firing racists a bad thing?

[Elegiac]

Yes, how dare I point out that the logic of her book and its core claims essentially negate the possibility of resolving racism in a material way, and moreover create an internal justification for highering her to help her cleanse your individually corrupted racism-thetans, that if you deny you have just proved you have them really badly.

Also, Endus even acknowledged this book isn't about fighting racism, its about firing people.

You guys are simply angry I pointed this out, that there are better ways to deal with racism, and funny enough we should probably try the ways suggested by people who aren't aiming to profit off of the solution. Which DiAngelo and company themselves admit there is no solution, just an eternal struggle session against the Thetans; all under the panopticon of HR surveillance.

I think some people didn't like my pointing out that Robin DiAngelo is basically selling Dianetics for Human Resources Stans; and that she is one step away from making it a full-on Multi-Level Marketing scam, think about it, it can be the Essential Oils for Woke People.

"White fragility doesn't exist because people can make money off anti-racism" has got to be one of Taibbi's lamest takes since "you aren't a whistleblower unless your life gets ruined".

[Theodarzna]

Let's assume this is all true.

Why is firing racists a bad thing?

It has nothing to do with racism or you know making there be less of it?

Assuming these petty HR tyrants are actually doing that, which is a ridiculously silly notion.

[Levelfive]

Yes, how dare I point out that the logic of her book and its core claims essentially negate the possibility of resolving racism in a material way, and moreover create an internal justification for highering her to help her cleanse your individually corrupted racism-thetans, that if you deny you have just proved you have them really badly.

Also, Endus even acknowledged this book isn't about fighting racism, its about firing people.

You guys are simply angry I pointed this out, that there are better ways to deal with racism, and funny enough we should probably try the ways suggested by people who aren't aiming to profit off of the solution. Which DiAngelo and company themselves admit there is no solution, just an eternal struggle session against the Thetans; all under the panopticon of HR surveillance. Which by the way happens to fatten their bank accounts, you know DiAngelo has a networth in the millions right?

I think some people didn't like my pointing out that Robin DiAngelo is basically selling Dianetics for Human Resources Stans; and that she is one step away from making it a full-on Multi-Level Marketing scam, think about it, it can be the Essential Oils for Woke People.

I didn't say "how dare you," nor do I particularly care how you dare. I pointed out that you haven't really engaged her arguments at all, and simply consigned the whole endeavor to a "grift" by..was it bloodless ghouls, ghoulish...somethings, and then hid behind Matt Taibbi. I do think there are fair criticisms of her approach, and would be happy to see you make any.

[Zython]

It has nothing to do with racism or you know making there be less of it?

Assuming these petty HR tyrants are actually doing that, which is a ridiculously silly notion.

So they're just firing people at random?

[Elegiac]

It has nothing to do with racism or you know making there be less of it?

Assuming these petty HR tyrants are actually doing that, which is a ridiculously silly notion.

Mmmmm, and there's the tell.

The continued harping on this one author as an "HR autocrat" dovetails nicely with previous complaining about all manner of 'technocrats' ranging from public servants to child development experts and equating all public initiatives to 'social engineering' - i.e. the issue Taibbi and the people who keep reposting his drivel have is the idea that individualism might be bad sometimes and that other people might be better informed than you about a given subject. It's just cultural kneejerking and Dunning-Kruger.

[Theodarzna]

So they're just firing people at random?

Try and stay on topic.

Infracted - Trolling

[Milchshake]

Another tell.

People that complain the most about PMCs. Possess both an underutilized graduate degree and well-off parents.
They're mad PMCs used their degrees to build a career and get a mortgage.

While they're trying to explain to Nanna why they spent so much much on their hobbyist degrees.

• "I'm writing a book", is code for I post a lot on gaming forums.
• "I'm getting into teaching" is code for I part-time at Kaplan or as substitute teacher who hates the children of strangers.

[Elegiac]

Another tell.

People that complain the most about PMCs. Possess both an underutilized graduate degree and well-off parents.
They're mad PMCs used their degrees to build a career and get a mortgage.

While they're trying to explain to Nanna why they spent so much much on their hobbyist degrees.

• "I'm writing a book", is code for I post a lot on gaming forums.
• "I'm getting into teaching" is code for I part-time at Kaplan or as substitute teacher who hates the children of strangers.

I can practically feel the desire to type "and you just know her eggs are all shriveled up and that's why she's an HR consultant writing books about not being a racist rather than being a good wife and mother >:|" from aforementioned posts, lol.

[Levelfive]

Another tell.

People that complain the most about PMCs. Possess both an underutilized graduate degree and well-off parents.
They're mad PMCs used their degrees to build a career and get a mortgage.

While they're trying to explain to Nanna why they spent so much much on their hobbyist degrees.

• "I'm writing a book", is code for I post a lot on gaming forums.
• "I'm getting into teaching" is code for I part-time at Kaplan or as substitute teacher who hates the children of strangers.

Ok, that was legitimately hilarious.

[Theodarzna]

I didn't say "how dare you," nor do I particularly care how you dare. I pointed out that you haven't really engaged her arguments at all, and simply consigned the whole endeavor to a "grift" by..was it bloodless ghouls, ghoulish...somethings, and then hid behind Matt Taibbi. I do think there are fair criticisms of her approach, and would be happy to see you make any.

I did, I argued in my first response that the book is essentially Dianetics for Human Resources workers. Her perception of Racism is irrelevant because all of her anecdotes and observations are presented without even grappling with their context. The workplace, her entire case is her admitting that Anti-Racism training just agitates a lot of people and causes resentment; which she then argues is proof that more must be done. But she ignores that her Anti-Racism training happens within the context of the workplace. A coercive environment where one is forced to go to subsist and survive, and then people are forced to go to the equivalent of a mandatory assembly in which a captive audience is browbeaten by some highly paid millionaire consultant to create fodder for future firings against people not comfortable opening up or sharing their intimate thoughts while under the watchful eye of Human Resources.

Whatever DiAngelo proposes is defeated by the facts of who she is and what she is doing, what she is doing is selling you her book and her services. If I want to solve racism, I am not going to take advice from a lady who tells me its unsolvable but can only be managed by giving her a lot of money, buying her book and telling my friends to do the same. If I want to join a Multi-Level Marketing scam, I'll do what all White moms do and sell Essential Oils or something.