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  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Your damage control is beyond poor, and your comment about the Earthmother is also wrong
    You literally quoted a tauren that proved my own point, as Baine says the same thing in that quest fighting the grimtotem in Mulgore, I just figured you'd disregard it if I brought it up because it's Baine. https://wow.gamepedia.com/War_Dance

    In digging for the specific NPC that said the Earthmother stuff in Thousand Needles, I found the Alliance side which described it much more humorously bluntly:

    "Doesn't matter. Their leader is dead. It's only a matter of time before the tauren of Freewind Post regain their home.
    If I were them, I'd push back a little to teach the Grimtotem a lesson, but they probably won't. They're tauren."
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Grimtotem_...efs_(Alliance)

    As for Horde side, I think it was this right here:
    https://www.wowhead.com/quest=27313/darkcloud-grimtotem
    "While the Earth Mother does not condone such violence, we had no choice. The Grimtotem have ignored Her teachings for too long and are reaping what they have sown."

    As much as you've tried to warp perspective on the book to try to make the NPCs angry at Baine, it has to take place before the Cataclysm questing, since Vendetta Point exists. This isn't something as ambiguous as the time Baine calmed the quillboar and we had no clear answer as to whether they immediately started attacking again in the starting zone, or if it took place after the starting zone and they've been relatively passive since. You can't claim the zone doesn't take into consideration the book, but then also point at a scene that was retconned out in alpha because it wasn't consistent with the book.

    Baine's actions were consistent with the teachings of the Earthmother. None of the tauren ultimately blame Baine for his actions.

    And, according to those that gave themselves to vengeance against the Earthmother's teachings, Taurajo is already avenged.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sabotage!
    Last edited by Powerogue; 2020-07-05 at 03:54 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  2. #182
    The Lightbringer Dalheim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Because Baine said it was justified. /thread
    He would allow Anduin to wipe out every tauren on Azeroth just to please his High King.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Guru View Post
    He would allow Anduin to wipe out every tauren on Azeroth just to please his High King.
    The funniest part is that the High King doesn't even want that. It is his advisors that kill the tauren instead.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  4. #184
    The Lightbringer Dalheim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    The funniest part is that the High King doesn't even want that. It is his advisors that kill the tauren instead.
    I know, but even if Anduin wanted it, Baine would just bend over and let it happen and say it was a good decision by the King (for no actual reason).

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Guru View Post
    He would allow Anduin to wipe out every tauren on Azeroth just to please his High King.
    Try to keep it to a Taurajo thread over a Baine thread, we've had enough of those. But good grief, no. "Has attempted to solve things with diplomacy over violence with his enemies, benefitting the Alliance more frequently than his own faction." Is absolutely not the same thing. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Baine_Bloodhoof
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Having the authority to do a thing doesn't make it just, moral, or even correct.

  6. #186
    Quote Originally Posted by Powerogue View Post
    As much as you've tried to warp perspective on the book to try to make the NPCs angry at Baine, it has to take place before the Cataclysm questing, since Vendetta Point exists. This isn't something as ambiguous as the time Baine calmed the quillboar and we had no clear answer as to whether they immediately started attacking again in the starting zone, or if it took place after the starting zone and they've been relatively passive since. You can't claim the zone doesn't take into consideration the book, but then also point at a scene that was retconned out in alpha because it wasn't consistent with the book.
    I've never claimed the NPCs are angry at Baine, the NPCs are literally incapable of reacting on that point because the event where Baine banished them for self-defense was written after the situation where they would have their reactions. My position, that I've voiced for years now is that in exiling people for self-defense in an ongoing war, Baine betrayed his people for his buddies and chastised them for trying to save their own lives and that his defensive measure - the Great Wall, is known to be a failure that only held because of Bloodhilt and the tauren of Vendetta Point. At no point have I claimed that the tauren there were salty at Baine. That's what the entire early segment of my prior point was about - when Southern Barrens was written, Baine was at first planned to appear to defend the Gates of Mulgore and ultimately did not appear at all. The event where he exiles people to Vendetta Point and goes on about Taurajo being a valid military target occurs later in real life but earlier in-story, hence why no NPC has anything to say about it one way or another. It's for the same reason that no NPC comments on Suramar looking completely different between games - it wasn't conceptualized that way yet.

    "Doesn't matter. Their leader is dead. It's only a matter of time before the tauren of Freewind Post regain their home.
    If I were them, I'd push back a little to teach the Grimtotem a lesson, but they probably won't. They're tauren."
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Grimtotem_...efs_(Alliance)
    As for Horde side, I think it was this right here:
    https://www.wowhead.com/quest=27313/darkcloud-grimtotem
    "While the Earth Mother does not condone such violence, we had no choice. The Grimtotem have ignored Her teachings for too long and are reaping what they have sown."
    Cherry-picking. Baine himself sends you to kill people because the tauren do not abhor violence to the point of suicide except in the case of his latter-day incarnation:
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dwarven_Digging
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Sharing_the_Land_(original)
    Compare and contrast the Baine of yesteryear sending you to kill gnolls and dwarves when diplomacy has failed to the Baine of today who gives quillboar resources after they kill his people and has this predictably bite him in the ass, both in Mulgore and in the Barrens, given the full scale quillboar attacks going on there. One is representative of the tauren as a whole, the other is representative of Baine.

    Baine's actions were consistent with the teachings of the Earthmother. None of the tauren ultimately blame Baine for his actions.
    Baine's exile of the Vendetta Point denizens are never referenced in-game a single time. Mind, I do agree with you that no tauren in Thunder Bluff would take issue with it, because anyone who did would have been exiled. When it comes to Taurajo, the only tauren to ever bring it up in BFA are vengeful, the latter of whom even calls upon the Earthmother for the express purpose of creating a weapon against the Alliance, a request that's granted. This is not withstanding the tauren that go to arrest Baine or cheer for war when Saurfang calls for it in A Good War.

    I have no idea why a Death Knight quest from Zuldrak is being sent, so am just gonna gloss over that one.
    Edit: Gann dies satisfied having avenged his people and considers Taurajo avenged. Retribution is cathartic for him. His family, also a tauren, also a victim when it comes to the Stonespire, is the one to send you to prevent the Alliance from exploiting the road they built in Dustwallow else the efforts in S. Barrens would have been pointless.

    I know you desperately want to have late-stage Baine be a show of the tauren as a whole, but he isn't. The tauren are not aggressors or conquerors, they are in fact, gentle giants, but they do defend their land and defend it to the death if it comes down to it. One dwarf getting shot by a single angry tauren does not equal an entire tribe reduced to three people, those striking back at the Alliance for an ongoing war where their home was wiped out are not unreasonable and Baine is still a human footstool who represents no one, not even his own early incarnation.

    @Syegfryed

    Yup, it's the same imperative that drove both. 'We want this land, so we are duty-bound to take it.' It made dwarves great for conflict back then and made for some nice culture clashes that we haven't seen since.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-07-05 at 04:37 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  7. #187
    The Lightbringer Ardenaso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Guru View Post
    He would allow Anduin to wipe out every tauren on Azeroth just to please his High King.
    Anduin will allow the Horde to naenae the Alliance just to please the Horde so it kinda cancels out
    The Alliance gets the Horde's most popular race. The Horde should get the Alliance's most popular race in return. Alteraci Humans for the Horde!

    I make Warcraft 3 Reforged HD custom models and I'm also an HD model reviewer.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ardenaso View Post
    Anduin will allow the Horde to naenae the Alliance just to please the Horde so it kinda cancels out
    I'd rather have the Horde disbanded than have him part of the Horde.

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