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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    C is basically the actual casual people, not the casual by definition of bad at the game, but the people that never play this game seriously or for its actual purpose and just goof around for the pixels.
    If you narrow it down that much, you will be allways right with such a broad match.

    The question remains why you mention serious in a GRIND GAME that is basicly made to take long/forever in its main core, for the players who want more than the usual 48-100 hours of gameplay / game.

    I mean if raiding (following basic strategies) would be everything, there were no speedruns, no pvp at all, no gold billionaires and no solo content pushers (basicly the seed for challenge modes/proving grounds/mythic+).

    Some parts of the game have very little friction with the casual gamers, but who cares? Playing a niche mini-game (progression raiding) is in the end just as silly in a casual MMO as collecting pets or playing with friends just for fun.

    ABC classification makes not much sense in a grind game when your main focus is on "actual purpose" - the whole genre is the polar opposite to that.
    -

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Topic has kind of been touched on before but I figured I would bring it up In a more focused form. In recent expansions wow has started to really focus on the concept that time gating is the preferred option to skill gating content.

    Essences, ap, corruption resistance are all examples of content that is time gated to varies degrees. Now don't get me wrong blizzard has been desperately trying to time gate content as early as tbc and even vanilla if you count the aq gates.

    It just seems that in the past it was massively pushed back against. The concept that if you were good enough at the game to run something you should be able to run it prevailed but I noticed that slowly but surely the idea that in order to run end game you must first farm trivial content to excess to succeed hs taken hold.

    I can understand why pointless systems like leveling your cloak exists but with the playerbase becoming more and more accepting of practices that are only in place to draw out content do you think we will see a ever increasing amount of them put into place?
    When they realized most of their playerbase are horribly addicted and won't leave anyway.

    They started developing content that is of a worse quality, with worse gameplay(class design) and just slapped shit loads of time-gates on it.

  3. #83

    Why has the game moved from skill gates to time gates?

    Can there be an expertise if weaknesses can do all for you?
    As a practitioner I know that it was best to use various skills or re-using illness before I pushed on my ability to treat runes and depending on a variety of reasons, however basically, a bad individual will only tell you what to do.

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  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Trend View Post
    What an entirely 100% false premise. For example, in Vanilla, nothing at all was hard, not PvP and not PvE. It was all time spent over skill, as has been made obvious by Classic. 45 minutes after BWL opens it's cleared, lol. So if you're trying to say it was formerly skill based and now it's just time syncs, you're just objectively wrong.
    So the entire dark souls franchise doesn't require any skill, because a handfull of people who have played the game for 15 years can clear each game in less than 10 minutes?

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by vipers View Post
    Classic was already time gated when you need to wait on AQ opening event
    And farming. Lots and lots of farming.

    And the old PVP system. That was just time-consuming. The top players were not the most skilled, they were those that could be playing hte game 24/7.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaykay View Post
    So the entire dark souls franchise doesn't require any skill, because a handfull of people who have played the game for 15 years can clear each game in less than 10 minutes?
    No, he's saying that the old WoW didn't require more skill than the current one. I'd even say it doesn't even require a fraction of the current skill (old raids are almost piñatas nexto the current ones).
    Which is what the OP was implying, which is false. We moved to time gating (farming reputations and materials to get better gear or access to harder dungeons, living in the BGs so you dont drop a PVP rank, etc) to skill gating (PVP brakets, no PVP gear, Mythic+ dungeons, different difficulty raids...)

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    If you narrow it down that much, you will be allways right with such a broad match.

    The question remains why you mention serious in a GRIND GAME that is basicly made to take long/forever in its main core, for the players who want more than the usual 48-100 hours of gameplay / game.

    I mean if raiding (following basic strategies) would be everything, there were no speedruns, no pvp at all, no gold billionaires and no solo content pushers (basicly the seed for challenge modes/proving grounds/mythic+).

    Some parts of the game have very little friction with the casual gamers, but who cares? Playing a niche mini-game (progression raiding) is in the end just as silly in a casual MMO as collecting pets or playing with friends just for fun.

    ABC classification makes not much sense in a grind game when your main focus is on "actual purpose" - the whole genre is the polar opposite to that.
    WoW isnt the same kind of grind game it used to be.

    WoW's endgame in classic is basicly farming mats so your autoattacks do more damage to the boss.

    WoW's endgame now is much more about pushing yourself to the limits in pvp/m+/raids. Nyalotha is kind of a shitstain in this but lets call it the exception that confirms the rule.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaykay View Post
    So the entire dark souls franchise doesn't require any skill, because a handfull of people who have played the game for 15 years can clear each game in less than 10 minutes?
    This is the worst analogy i've ever seen.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    It just seems that in the past it was massively pushed back against. The concept that if you were good enough at the game to run something you should be able to run it prevailed but I noticed that slowly but surely the idea that in order to run end game you must first farm trivial content to excess to succeed hs taken hold.
    It has Always been like this. Its better now. Ever since the first raids, you had to repeatedly farm trivial content to get the items needed to be successful in a raid. That is why it sucked so much when someone geared left a guild back in bc / wrath. Then it became a matter of "do we Hope we get someone geared to join, or do we take someone and gear them ourselves and hope their skilled?"

    Now its at the point were you can play solo and get up to gear in a week, tops. As opposed to back in wrath or bc, taking weeks to get geared. Its why a lot of guilds ran older content that was trivial. To finish getting BiS items or to get new recruits to get them up to speed.

    Time gates have been a thing since the start. Its not new. Its gotten faster now than it used to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  8. #88
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    Because they removed difficulty and gear checks from all non-heroic level content.

    Time gates is the only option left for the developers, since the overall game design is to make sure everyone gets to see all content, no matter how undergeared, or how well they can play. The only exclusive content is the same content on a higher difficulty and nothing more.

    They cannot stop using time gates because the design dictates the content they create could always be cleared fully day 1, if there were no artificial gates in the way.
    Because every major patch design paradigm is more about "getting people back" rather than "giving the players more content", and the only way to do that is to shower returning players with instant fireworks, new systems and instant major upgrades, for a short term burst of dopamine.
    I personally returned to give Nazjatar a try and lo' and behold, my incredibly undergeared character was just flying through it, there was no build up or anything. Just drop in the latest content and plow through it like you're mythic geared.
    Personally I gave up that same afternoon. And repeat for 8.3, how sad it is that gear is essentially just cosmetic until you hit premade content.

    "Time gates" used to be that new content simply needed players in better gear, gear they didn't have yet.
    So with the gear they had from the last patch, they'd have just enough to clear some of the first bosses in the new raid, slowly getting past certain thresholds when they could get the next boss down, and so on. More bosses down every week, more loot.

    Now, since they can't design content that requires substantially better gear than players already have-- yeah, time gates is the only realistic option to make sure players don't instantly blitz 3 months of game development in 2 hours of facerolling then saying "That was it?"
    Last edited by MasterHamster; 2020-07-06 at 08:52 AM.
    Active WoW player Jan 2006 - Aug 2020
    Occasional WoW Classic Andy since.
    Nothing lasts forever, as they say.
    But at least I can casually play Classic and remember when MMORPGs were good.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by MasterHamster View Post
    Because they removed difficulty and gear checks from all non-heroic level content.

    Time gates is the only option left for the developers, since the overall game design is to make sure everyone gets to see all content, no matter how undergeared, or how well they can play. The only exclusive content is the same content on a higher difficulty and nothing more.

    They cannot stop using time gates because the design dictates the content they create could always be cleared fully day 1, if there were no artificial gates in the way.
    Because every major patch design paradigm is more about "getting people back" rather than "giving the players more content", and the only way to do that is to shower returning players with instant fireworks, new systems and instant major upgrades, for a short term burst of dopamine.
    I personally returned to give Nazjatar a try and lo' and behold, my incredibly undergeared character was just flying through it, there was no build up or anything. Just drop in the latest content and plow through it like you're mythic geared.
    Personally I gave up that same afternoon.

    "Time gates" used to be that new content simply needed players in better gear, gear they didn't have yet.
    So with the gear they had from the last patch, they'd have just enough to clear some of the first bosses in the new raid, slowly getting past certain thresholds when they could get the next boss down, and so on. More bosses down every week, more loot.

    Now, since they can't design content that requires substantially better gear than players already have-- yeah, time gates is the only realistic option to make sure players don't instantly blitz 3 months of game development in 2 hours of facerolling then saying "That was it?"
    If your idea of hard content is normal raids and normal dungeons(ie all non heroic) then you are absolutely right.

    How would that idea manifest though?
    It confuses me that you just cut out even the medium difficulty stuff and then say there isnt any difficulty checks oO

  10. #90
    Because they're trying to decrease the gap between the top 1% and bottom 99%

    Still triggered they turned flex -> normal / normal -> heroic etc

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by vipers View Post
    Classic was already time gated when you need to wait on AQ opening event
    also somehow these people seem to have some serious amnesia when they forget that wotlk (the imaginary pinacle of quality in some people eyes) had the worst time gate ever,and the bigest and fastest nerfs when it wasnt even needed like it is today with mythic being far harder,and the nerfs today still never come close to the huge wrath ones,or even tbc where mecanics were completly altered,not just some 1-5% hp nerfs like today

  12. #92
    Most timegates are in actuality dynamic skill checks. There more time invested, the less skill required for whatever content you try to engage in. It's making it easier over time so more people are compelled to do more content. At first everything is difficult and over time you get more powerful be it AP or essences or corruption.

    There might exist more power gains depending on time now, but back in the day more content were behind timegates. Latter is worse imo.
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  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaykay View Post
    So the entire dark souls franchise doesn't require any skill, because a handfull of people who have played the game for 15 years can clear each game in less than 10 minutes?
    Yea I forgot all those sick dodge rolls you had to do in MC and BWL to avoid getting burned to a crisp.

    Oh wait no I didn't because it was literally just "tank in spot, keep hitting my DPS/heal/tank buttons and react to stuff maybe at most once a minute". Definitely Dark Souls level of difficulty

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    WoW's endgame now is much more about pushing yourself to the limits in pvp/m+/raids. Nyalotha is kind of a shitstain in this but lets call it the exception that confirms the rule.
    SMALL HINT:

    WoW never changed in the last 15+ years. New players just don't see it, because they don't experienced it yet overtime. Everything that matters to you in this game, might be something that 99.9% of the players either don't care or don't even recognize as important to have fun. You either realize that fast and have fun or you burn yourself out with content you dont really like, just because some random player told you what to do.

    MMOs allow you to "do whatever you want" and that might be to much for people who are used to straight game directives to have fun playing the game. Its the real main-game in WoW, find something you enjoy and maybe find other players that enjoy the same in this game. Clearly not something that the majority of the players achieve.

    Last edited by Ange; 2020-07-06 at 11:11 AM.
    -

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    Topic has kind of been touched on before but I figured I would bring it up In a more focused form. In recent expansions wow has started to really focus on the concept that time gating is the preferred option to skill gating content.

    Essences, ap, corruption resistance are all examples of content that is time gated to varies degrees. Now don't get me wrong blizzard has been desperately trying to time gate content as early as tbc and even vanilla if you count the aq gates.

    It just seems that in the past it was massively pushed back against. The concept that if you were good enough at the game to run something you should be able to run it prevailed but I noticed that slowly but surely the idea that in order to run end game you must first farm trivial content to excess to succeed hs taken hold.

    I can understand why pointless systems like leveling your cloak exists but with the playerbase becoming more and more accepting of practices that are only in place to draw out content do you think we will see a ever increasing amount of them put into place?
    It's always been like this with things like raiding, no matter how good you were at the game you still had to stick to the lockout schedule.

    It's coming in to more parts of the game because of the discrepancies in how people play the game. Without the time-gating they would either have to put in huge grinds that players with less time to play could never get through, or a more reasonable grind that hard-core players could blast through in a week before complaining they have no reason to log in.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Ange View Post
    If you narrow it down that much, you will be allways right with such a broad match.

    The question remains why you mention serious in a GRIND GAME that is basicly made to take long/forever in its main core, for the players who want more than the usual 48-100 hours of gameplay / game.

    I mean if raiding (following basic strategies) would be everything, there were no speedruns, no pvp at all, no gold billionaires and no solo content pushers (basicly the seed for challenge modes/proving grounds/mythic+).

    Some parts of the game have very little friction with the casual gamers, but who cares? Playing a niche mini-game (progression raiding) is in the end just as silly in a casual MMO as collecting pets or playing with friends just for fun.

    ABC classification makes not much sense in a grind game when your main focus is on "actual purpose" - the whole genre is the polar opposite to that.
    Well i mean it more for what the genre is about in a sense.

    If you are raiding, it means you care about character progression, in the sense of WoW, Gear chasing aka raiding, despite all the changes to keep people playing/staying for more $$, the core of the game is the same, Gear, gear, and more gear chase, till gear reset, majority through raiding, generally!

    I dont know if Fifa has the option, but you dont play Fifa ONLY to create team representative T-shirts , as example, you play Fifa for the football.

    Thats my reasoning, if someone is having fun creating T-shirts in WoW (Pet Battles/PvP/just questing/Transmog/Gold making) or whatever else they are doing, good for them, but they arent playing the game for its purpose.

    Thats why there are categories of players, people that play the game correctly and people that dont, are they having fun? Good for them, but its irrelevant when discussing these type of things.

    Its the same for me in FPS games, i play decently because i play games for 20 years, but i dont care to know every curve, every weapon recoil, every single grenade throw position, because i am only playing for fun.

    But all hell breaks looks when my buddies slack in a M+ we have been doing for 2 years in a +18 or up as example because he didnt feel like interrupting or when my raiders didnt feel like doing mechanics because PEW PEW CLEAVE EVERYTHING FUN MODE and we end up wiping on something we killed 15 times before.

    So, in FPS games, i am a C spectrum of my example.
    Last edited by potis; 2020-07-06 at 11:40 AM.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Well i mean it more for what the genre is about in a sense.

    If you are raiding, it means you care about character progression, in the sense of WoW, Gear chasing aka raiding, despite all the changes to keep people playing/staying for more $$, the core of the game is the same, Gear, gear, and more gear chase, till gear reset, majority through raiding, generally!

    I dont know if Fifa has the option, but you dont play Fifa ONLY to create team representative T-shirts , as example, you play Fifa for the football.

    Thats my reasoning, if someone is having fun creating T-shirts in WoW (Pet Battles/PvP/just questing/Transmog/Gold making) or whatever else they are doing, good for them, but they arent playing the game for its purpose.

    Thats why there are categories of players, people that play the game correctly and people that dont, are they having fun? Good for them, but its irrelevant when discussing these type of things.

    Its the same for me in FPS games, i play decently because i play games for 20 years, but i dont care to know every curve, every weapon recoil, every single grenade throw position, because i am only playing for fun.

    But all hell breaks looks when my buddies slack in a M+ we have been doing for 2 years in a +18 or up as example because he didnt feel like interrupting or when my raiders didnt feel like doing mechanics because PEW PEW CLEAVE EVERYTHING FUN MODE and we end up wiping on something we killed 15 times before.

    So, in FPS games, i am a C spectrum of my example.
    I actually dont think gear really matters with how trivial it is to acquire. A full 465 character takes maybe a week two if your slow to get.

    It takes a lot longer to get essences then it does gear.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I actually dont think gear really matters with how trivial it is to acquire. A full 465 character takes maybe a week two if your slow to get.

    It takes a lot longer to get essences then it does gear.
    Its easier now and it has to do with what level of play you play at.

    The majority, i wont say the 99%, but i can easily bet a 95% of the active players dont reach 465 even after all these months of 8.3 being out.

    For sure they didnt reach 465 the first 2 weeks of the patch being out, they couldnt even reach 440.

    And many more things that i cba writing, generally people really dont do basic math and figure out basic things on how the game actually works.

    Its the same for the "mYTHOUC RAIDURS" that get cutting edge 1 week before the next patch, where the boss is 20% nerfed, and with random changes they are 20% buffed, so they are literally doing a completely different boss than the top 50 world.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Its easier now and it has to do with what level of play you play at.

    The majority, i wont say the 99%, but i can easily bet a 95% of the active players dont reach 465 even after all these months of 8.3 being out.

    For sure they didnt reach 465 the first 2 weeks of the patch being out, they couldnt even reach 440.

    And many more things that i cba writing, generally people really dont do basic math and figure out basic things on how the game actually works.

    Its the same for the "mYTHOUC RAIDURS" that get cutting edge 1 week before the next patch, where the boss is 20% nerfed, and with random changes they are 20% buffed, so they are literally doing a completely different boss than the top 50 world.
    I guess? I'm not really sure what it is your trying to say with this to be honest.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Krakan View Post
    I guess? I'm not really sure what it is your trying to say with this to be honest.
    Of course you dont because you are in the category that has no clue what he is talking about, you just complain to complain or something along those lines, as the majority of the players.

    Gear is trivial to acquire but you are somehow not 480 and you are using 465 as a measurement of comparison cause thats where your limited knowledge about things, ends and bla bla bla.

    Usual mmo-champion shenanigans, dont worry.

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