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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    What about all the RPG's that don't?
    Most do, I wouldn't play one that didn't.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Niter View Post
    Well, there are some elements which are important in an RPG: choosing the race, gender, looks and the gear that brings out the best concept you've envisioned for that character (transmog, mounts, pets). You can have a backstory if you so choose, and that is a crucial aspect that most people overlook (and perhaps one of the reasons WoW hasn't been what it once was is that characters, the lore and locations matter less nd less, so most things story-wise feel empty).

    When it comes to choice within the story and the game world, then I must say that WoW was never stellar to begin with, but at least there used to be some choice: you could farm rep for specific mounts, there were factions you could subscribe to (Aldor vs Scriers, the WotLK factions also had a different feel to them, Pandaria allowed for a few things) but it doesn't seem it has progressed at all. In Legion the Order Halls were great to provide that extra flavour, and were a welcome addition. Now we are unlikely to get anything like that.

    Up to WoTLK there were more options in terms of sub-stats, gems and enchants. Now it is not as deep. Talents have never been that big of a deal since the good ones were obvious and the viable ones were known. But I can't help it but feel that the latest talent system is worse due to there being fewer choices, lots of talents that mean nothing, add little to no flavour or, worse yet, add back to the class/spec abilities that it used to have, so you must buy with talent points abilities that you once had.

    It would be a good idea to have things like some monster having stronger armour, so bleeds and poisons would fit best to deal damage; then, another boss who's got higher armour but is less susceptible to bleeds and poisons, so armour penetration would be better; another kind that had no armour, so big hits would be more damaging the bypassing armour or applying DoTs... in the same vein, there could be some monster which took a bit more damage from some elements, making an Arcane Mage deal, say 5% more damage in that particular encounter. This way characters could be optimised to deal with different types of enemies. The same thing applies to tanking, with some tanking being preferable in certain fights... Right now, when that happens, it's mostly due to imbalances than Blizzard actually making this decision.

    The big issue seems to be that Blizzard cannot seem to play the 'some can do better than others at times, and worse at other instances' without completely borking a sub-stat or trying to come up with a solution in which enemies never change and all changes are done to the characters.

    Choice, gameplay-wise, isn't there because it is not required, it is an afterthought at best.
    the problem with such (lovely may I say ) system is the same problem with other RPG parts. yes, MIN MAXERS!
    they can add such bosses, and in fact we had such bosses back in classic and tbc but then players started to nag about it and other raid groups started to exclude classes because of that.
    are you a fire mage trying to kill a boss made out of fire because you need the loot? well good luck finding a grp for that.
    are you a rogue looking for a grp to kill a boss who has 60% immunity to bleed and poison ? well its a shame you cant find any groups.
    even if the above example was 10% immunity, still min maxers would exclude people. its the most stupid thing as min maxing as a world first or hell even a realm first guild is acceptable but then stupid medicore guilds and groups start to mimic the top 0.1% players and think it will make a difference to min max when most players dont even know how to properly use their talents let alone new talents and abilities they force them to chose.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    I'd have to disagree, as there has to at least be the illusion of choice...
    There's no rule indicating that this is the case.

    RPG is just a gender. There are several mechanics traditionally present on RPGs, but they are traditions, not definitions.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Most do, I wouldn't play one that didn't.
    That's besides the point. The point, that no one can agree on what an "RPG" actually is, because there are so many, that are so very different, still stands.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LuminaL View Post
    the problem with such (lovely may I say ) system is the same problem with other RPG parts. yes, MIN MAXERS!
    they can add such bosses, and in fact we had such bosses back in classic and tbc but then players started to nag about it and other raid groups started to exclude classes because of that.
    are you a fire mage trying to kill a boss made out of fire because you need the loot? well good luck finding a grp for that.
    are you a rogue looking for a grp to kill a boss who has 60% immunity to bleed and poison ? well its a shame you cant find any groups.
    even if the above example was 10% immunity, still min maxers would exclude people. its the most stupid thing as min maxing as a world first or hell even a realm first guild is acceptable but then stupid medicore guilds and groups start to mimic the top 0.1% players and think it will make a difference to min max when most players dont even know how to properly use their talents let alone new talents and abilities they force them to chose.
    I don't disagree, but you'll see those people in tabletop RPG's too such as D&D or Pathfinder. I've known players, who'd use hours creating spreadsheets on how to make the best character, by indeed min-maxing, class-combining, picking the right weapons and feats etc. The result was often utterly absurd and ridiculous, and ironically they struggled with finding a name or a persona for their character because all they wanted was, to kill monsters and obtain loot.

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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Venziir View Post
    That's besides the point. The point, that no one can agree on what an "RPG" actually is, because there are so many, that are so very different, still stands.
    The dictionary definition is "a game in which participants adopt the roles of imaginary characters in an adventure under the direction of a Game Master."

    So... it's pretty broad range lol, just about anything that you play through a story as a character could be considered a role-playing game.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmist View Post
    I honestly can't see how it would be any different to the previous choices in WoW.

    1. Aldor or Scryer in TBC. Pick the one that Elitist Jerks said was best for your class.

    2. Oracles or Frenzyheart in WotLK. Pick whether you want a mount and pets or a toy. Swap when you've got the stuff you want.

    3. Pick a covenant in SL. Forgive me for being Mr Pessimistic, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say we'll pick whatever Icy Veins tells us is best for our class.

    And that's the problem. Either it's not important and nobody cares about it, or it's important enough that somebody else will tell you which to pick.
    honestly all the rewards should be the same power wise,same abilities just with different visuals,and sets and pets/mounts

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by deenman View Post
    honestly all the rewards should be the same power wise,same abilities just with different visuals,and sets and pets/mounts
    That sounds boring AF, i mean, unless they still give us all 8 abilities and 12 soul-binds

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    That sounds boring AF, i mean, unless they still give us all 8 abilities and 12 soul-binds
    yeah sure,just lets you swap em out like talents,or restruct em like artefacts

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by LuminaL View Post
    the problem with such (lovely may I say ) system is the same problem with other RPG parts. yes, MIN MAXERS!
    they can add such bosses, and in fact we had such bosses back in classic and tbc but then players started to nag about it and other raid groups started to exclude classes because of that.
    are you a fire mage trying to kill a boss made out of fire because you need the loot? well good luck finding a grp for that.
    are you a rogue looking for a grp to kill a boss who has 60% immunity to bleed and poison ? well its a shame you cant find any groups.
    even if the above example was 10% immunity, still min maxers would exclude people. its the most stupid thing as min maxing as a world first or hell even a realm first guild is acceptable but then stupid medicore guilds and groups start to mimic the top 0.1% players and think it will make a difference to min max when most players dont even know how to properly use their talents let alone new talents and abilities they force them to chose.
    I agree that min/maxing is an issue. However, if it remains consistent it shouldn't be a problem. A way around it is to give achivements/rewards to group compositions that could include specs that would be at a disadvantage. This way most casual guilds would not care as much, LFR is a thing and people don't really get to choose, leaving the top guilds to cry about things, but if experience serves us well, they tend to adapt quite quickly once Blizzard says "yes, it's a thing!"

    What Blizzard should do is to keep some specs with a clear advantage (between 5-10%) and make it so that in the same instance or raid different specs get a chance to shine. If we are only talking about a Molten Core-like experience, it doesn't matter how much I like the format (I really do!) but it will not be a good design to heavily favour only one spec. In a 6 boss encounter raid there is nothing holding Blizzard back from including two bosses that are weaker to Ice/Shadow, two more that are weak to Fire/Lightning, a couple more that are weak to Holy/Arcane and so on. Even for melee classes it would work quite well, with two which are weaker to DoTs, two more that are weak to arpen/elements, and finally two that are a bit resistant to DoTs.

    This way we could have a lot more player agency, guilds might not be completely aware of which boss is weak to what, adding one more layer to progression and since all team members would be useful in different situations, switching characters in and out is still better than benching a character completely.

    I guess the issue would remain the same though, with Blizzard having to make choices that make sense and do not slip as often as they do. It is not uncommon to see they get it so wrong that some specs see almost no play for a year or two because they are very underpowered (not talking about being under the top spec by 5%, but by 4 times that or even more!)

  10. #30
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    WoW has many RPG elements, just watered down.
    A few of them are...

    Choice:
    In a single player RPG scenario, or small-group, focused, you have story choices that lead you down path A or B.
    As a DM who has had plans foiled many a time, the players make the choice and the dice fall as they may.
    Even in console games, do a series of tasks with some outcomes and you can get one of two or more "ending" paths.In WoW, you have that choice as well, but it's pick one: Horde or Alliance, then the story you are told is tailored to one or the other.

    Character Customization:
    Some of the greatest RPGs lack the character customization WoW has. Many others have a more in-depth one. WoW comes up in the shallower end overall, but still allows gender/class/race choices instead of being the pre-determined Hero design.

    Stats:
    This is where WoW suffers the most, as the majority of stats it used to have added that RPG flavor, but in a massive game, it all came down to "what did the guide say?".
    People can argue hit and defense are great secondary stats, and they wouldn't be wrong, but the end result didn't create some magical custom way of playing the game; it just made it a bit harder to hit your "marks" (6.5% hit/expertise or 13% spell hit, things like that), which ultimately meant if you were lacking in certain stats, you did less throughput or, in the case od a tank, could be one-shot by a crushing blow.
    WoW, being massive, suffered from that due to complexity and being the "casual alternative" to the hardcode RPG scene; it was hard for the playerbase to figure out so they would just look up a guide, then down the line, install a reforge addon, and not actually think too much about it.
    The ones who suffered were the min-maxers who liked squeezing every ounce out they could, as well as those cheeky ones who wanted to make off-the-wall builds and such.

    Skills/Talents:
    Similar to the Stats category, this was also dumbed down to the point where everything was more "templated" or in other words, on rails.
    What used to be the choice here was largely "what does the guide say?" but it did allow for funky builds for fun as well as an expanded arsenal of (sub-optimal) skills, like someone putting all their points into the fire tree then spamming frostbolt because it's fun.
    Today's version loses a lot of that weird, situational flavor in favor of "well, you're a fre mage, so you have only fire spells" and "here's a handful of talent 'choices' that really come down to ST vs AOE vs Utility (vs garbage)", taking a lot of the wiggle room out, again for simplicity's sake.

    Story-telling:
    This kinda goes with the Choice one above, where everyone is told the same story and are generally guided down the same exact path.
    It's very common in your old school RPGs, with Chrono Trigger being one of those fantastic gems of "here's a shit load of different endings, see how many you can find!" approach.
    Games told one story and you acted it out with a simple pass/fail on the quest where fail means "game over".
    Modern RPGs now have a multi-threaded story that can lead to different overall outcomes.
    WoW tried introducing the Sylvanas loyalist storyline, which gave you a few different quests (same kind of thing they have done since the beginning when choosing rep faction A over B), but ultimately it didn't matter; she fled the coop and everyone forgives you, I guess?
    A massive game suffers under those devices because it can't truly divide the Horde playerbase between loyalists and rebels, else they further risk exclusion.
    You get a toy, or whatever, then back to the main path you go with the rest of the flock.

  11. #31
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    Absolutely it does because players are all the same now. Same stat weights, same talents, same weapon types, same questing path.
    FFXIV - Maduin (Dynamis DC)

  12. #32
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    Wanna know why WoW has pared down its RPG elements?

    Just look at the community response to covenants. Or legiondaries. Or a azerite traits. Or warforged gear or gear with random gem slots or any other thing that for the majority of players is just a nice little bonus or bit of flavor, but that the community... THIS community... will rant and rave over, arguing that they can’t have the right option or know the right option beforehand or can’t do a set A to B to get to the right option guaranteed.

    RPGs are about choice; a game or community that stresses the importance of always being able to obtain the “right” choice means that there isn’t actually a choice at all.

    Frankly, the players are to blame for that mindset.
    “Do not lose time on daily trivialities. Do not dwell on petty detail. For all of these things melt away and drift apart within the obscure traffic of time. Live well and live broadly. You are alive and living now. Now is the envy of all of the dead.” ~ Emily3, World of Tomorrow
    Quote Originally Posted by Wells View Post
    Kaleredar is right...
    Words to live by.

  13. #33
    WoW is definitely RPG-lite. It's why it just doesn't hold my interest like it used to - once you skim the surface that's really all there is to see. Over time Blizzard has buffed out all of the nooks and crannies for players to explore in terms of character progression and customization... and their reasoning always seems to be their players are too stupid to figure it out. "We don't want anyone doing anything "wrong"" or "do you really need to see all those complicated stats" or "they can't find the PVP vendor" ... so our solution is to just streamline everything so no one can make any bad decisions.

    Well... no one can make any good decisions either. The only remaining piece of player expression that remains in WoW in 2020 is your xmog, title and mount choice.

    The game is massive... but it's a mile wide and an inch deep. And depending on what sort of RPG elements you like - gameplay or cosmetics - there are better games in those areas, unfortunately no game really does both really well. For cosmetics I think ESO is the gold standard with their housing system, plentiful costumes, hair styles, skin colors, etc. On the actual gameplay side... sad to say I still have to play EQ for that old school feel. The game is really jank but if you can cut through the weeds, you can find a nice little cove at the center that really delivers on the old promise of what an MMORPG should be.

    WoW is just not that anymore. People buy the box and play the entire new expansion content like a single player game - solo. For group content they get randomly matched with others where their class doesn't matter, communication doesn't matter, strategy doesn't matter... they don't matter at all and in fact and might as well just be an NPC.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Justpassing View Post
    Play ESO when you need a quick RPG fix. That's what I do.
    If only that game didn't have absolutely dreadful combat animations, I'd be playing it all day long.

  15. #35
    I don't think you really need to define 'rpg' to be able to answer 'yes'. WoW has almost no RPG mechanics. I'd say it's a tab target looter-shooter, but you're able to heal other people.
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by BALLS BALLS BALLS BALLS View Post
    Obviously the defining characteristic of the RPG genre is choice, and meaningful choice at that (hopefully). They've made an effort in that department with the covenants, and it remains to be seen what happens with that system.

    But do you think the game in general lacks a lot of RPG flavor? Do you think WoW is just an action-adventure game with RPG window-dressing? Are you satisfied with the itemization of the game or do you think it has room to be deeper and more thought-provoking? Do you think a game like WoW can even allow that?
    You clearly don't know what an mmorpg is so maybe you should start by learning that.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    I don't think you really need to define 'rpg' to be able to answer 'yes'. WoW has almost no RPG mechanics. I'd say it's a tab target looter-shooter, but you're able to heal other people.
    you know what a rpg element would be? if you had several groups (lets call them covenants) that you had to make a choice to join. and it would be hard to rejoin them if you decided to leave and join another one.

    yeah. thats why there arent many rpg elements. because people want to have their cake and eat it too.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by BALLS BALLS BALLS BALLS View Post
    If only that game didn't have absolutely dreadful combat animations, I'd be playing it all day long.
    The combat is, in general, pretty darn bad in ESO. At least as a melee class

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  19. #39
    Rpg elements is so utterly vague and undefined to be useless it's just what people insert into arguments when they dont have a logical point for something they want.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by LuminaL View Post
    the problem with such (lovely may I say ) system is the same problem with other RPG parts. yes, MIN MAXERS!
    they can add such bosses, and in fact we had such bosses back in classic and tbc but then players started to nag about it and other raid groups started to exclude classes because of that.
    are you a fire mage trying to kill a boss made out of fire because you need the loot? well good luck finding a grp for that.
    are you a rogue looking for a grp to kill a boss who has 60% immunity to bleed and poison ? well its a shame you cant find any groups.
    even if the above example was 10% immunity, still min maxers would exclude people. its the most stupid thing as min maxing as a world first or hell even a realm first guild is acceptable but then stupid medicore guilds and groups start to mimic the top 0.1% players and think it will make a difference to min max when most players dont even know how to properly use their talents let alone new talents and abilities they force them to chose.
    Exactly. Just look at that Exochaft guy, who argues that WoW doesn't even have an illusion of choice because a best option exists.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by LilSaihah View Post
    I don't think you really need to define 'rpg' to be able to answer 'yes'. WoW has almost no RPG mechanics. I'd say it's a tab target looter-shooter, but you're able to heal other people.
    Hm. I can choose my race, gender, appearance, class, specialization, gear appearace, and modify some spells. That very sentence pretty much cements that WoW is an RPG.
    The most difficult thing to do is accept that there is nothing wrong with things you don't like and accept that people can like things you don't.

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