Page 47 of 63 FirstFirst ...
37
45
46
47
48
49
57
... LastLast
  1. #921
    Mechagnome Recovery's Avatar
    3+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    645
    Quote Originally Posted by OFiveNine View Post
    Tbh if it really is an rpg like you say. You can also pretend that they are permanent choices while we can put in a little extra effort to swap bc blizzard are terrible at balancing

    - - - Updated - - -



    Oh true. Forgot that little caveat. I'm used to people trying their hardest and the skill difference between the top player and the bottom player in my raid group is tiny and everyone choosing the best talents/farming azerite/traits or w/e bullshit blizzard hangs in the expansion

    100% if bob isnt putting out then he's getting carried, obviously there's a little wiggle room when it comes to classes (lol windwalker monk dps xD) but tru



    It's pretty evident that the A Chozo is in one of those casual guilds where the majority of the raid leeches off the efforts of their small group of 3-5 star players while everyone else plays sub par. I'm not gonna hold it against you for wanting to choose w/e covenant you want but with such widely different powers and abilities and the fact we have m+/raids/pvp it would be pretty daft if you couldn't swap. These systems are the illusion of choice 100% of the time. A real choice would be choosing a covenant and having a different particle theme based on your covenant for the ability because it doesn't impact actual live gameplay
    Exactly, WoW is a Min/Max game at the competitive level and general progression level.

    If you have choices but some of those choices are better than others and you cant swap, then it is ILLUSION. This is especially true with how terrible blizzard is at balancing.

    Say the expansions releases and X convenant is 12% better than the next best option. You choose it. 2 weeks later blizzard nerfs it and the next best option is 6% better than the previous best option. This is the vicious circle blizzard created due to their poor balancing.

    The only way to balance this efficiently would be to make offensive and defensive abilities percent based and make aesthetic abilities... well, it doesnt matter because theyre probably irrelevant to gameplay.

  2. #922
    Legendary!
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Eorzea
    Posts
    6,030
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    You've obviously never been in an environment where production matters. lol.

    Your guild has an environment where they allow you to under perform, thats fine, most guilds have that person / people. However, they're still carrying you at the end of the day. If youre doing substantially less than others, there is room for efficiency improvement.

    if a few or even the majority are doing substantially more than the minimum, it means you're not doing the minimum
    1 - No need to assume random stuff just because you don't have arguments. Achieving maximum potential isn't a obligation nor a necessity in most of World of Warcraft.
    2 - It's not being carried if everyone is pulling their weight.

    If someone in a group is doing less than others but is still doing reasonably, then that person isn't being carried.

    C'mon dude, this is basic stuff that you learn the first time you play any game as a kid.

  3. #923
    Mechagnome Recovery's Avatar
    3+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    645
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    1 - No need to assume random stuff just because you don't have arguments. Achieving maximum potential isn't a obligation nor a necessity in most of World of Warcraft.
    2 - It's not being carried if everyone is pulling their weight.

    If someone in a group is doing less than others but is still doing reasonably, then that person isn't being carried.

    C'mon dude, this is basic stuff that you learn the first time you play any game as a kid.
    1 - Achieving max potential isnt an obligation or necessity for YOU because other people are doing it. aka Youre being carried because THEY are reaching maximim potential.
    2- if someone else is pulling more wight than you, youre not pulling ALL of yours. Youre being carried.

    Just because you and your group are fine with those facts, doesnt make it any less true that you are being carried.

  4. #924
    Legendary!
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Eorzea
    Posts
    6,030
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    1 - Achieving max potential isnt an obligation or necessity for YOU because other people are doing it. aka Youre being carried because THEY are reaching maximim potential.
    2- if someone else is pulling more wight than you, youre not pulling ALL of yours. Youre being carried.
    It isn't a necessity for me and the majority of the playerbase because the content doesn't demand it.

    If I'm pulling my weight but someone decides to crush the content, It doesn't mean I'm being carried, it means that the content is being overpowered. If we replaced every player in the group with the person being "carried", the content would've been cleared the same.

    Which is why Covenants are being designed the way they are. Almost no one playing needs to be optimized to defeat the content, which is why the current system of fucked-up corruptions and, soon, non-optimized Covenant skills work (except in PvP, which is fucked up).

    Blizzard isn't designing this game for the players who want to overpower the content, they are designing it to the silent majority who is fine with not parsing and still defeating LFR Denathrius or even Heroic Denathrius. They'd rather lose the elitist players who are complaining if that means those casuals are satisfied. And since the current system keeps the actual Elites playing, it's even better.

  5. #925
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    It isn't a necessity for me and the majority of the playerbase because the content doesn't demand it.

    If I'm pulling my weight but someone decides to crush the content, It doesn't mean I'm being carried, it means that the content is being overpowered. If we replaced every player in the group with the person being "carried", the content would've been cleared the same.

    Which is why Covenants are being designed the way they are. Almost no one playing needs to be optimized to defeat the content, which is why the current system of fucked-up corruptions and, soon, non-optimized Covenant skills work (except in PvP, which is fucked up).

    Blizzard isn't designing this game for the players who want to overpower the content, they are designing it to the silent majority who is fine with not parsing and still defeating LFR Denathrius or even Heroic Denathrius. They'd rather lose the elitist players who are complaining if that means those casuals are satisfied. And since the current system keeps the actual Elites playing, it's even better.
    No, it wouldn't, and that's obvious to everybody except the person being carried. If you need to do 500k damage in 10 seconds or you wipe(bursting down an add or whatever), 1 person doing 20k DPS and 3 people doing 10k DPS gets you there just in time. 4 people doing 10k each would be nowhere near.
    Last edited by Tradu; 2020-07-07 at 03:19 PM.
    Tradushuffle
    <Echoes>
    Laughing Skull-EU

  6. #926
    Legendary!
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Eorzea
    Posts
    6,030
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    No, it wouldn't, and that's obvious to everybody except the person being carried.
    Yes, it would, because that person's performance is enough to clear the content.

    I don't know why you keep assuming that it isn't. It's weird.

  7. #927
    Mechagnome Recovery's Avatar
    3+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    645
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    No, it wouldn't, and that's obvious to everybody except the person being carried.
    this......

  8. #928
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Yes, it would, because that person's performance is enough to clear the content.

    I don't know why you keep assuming that it isn't. It's weird.
    No, that person's performance is enough to clear the content as long as other people in the group are doing more to compensate. Let me give you an (extreme) example. I boost +15s. That means me and 3 others(1 tank, 1 healer, 2 DPS) are timing +15 keys. When we're done, the 5th person who was afk at the entrance cleared the content. If you take 3 of that person instead of the 2 boosting DPS + 1 afk guy, you'll no longer time the key.
    Last edited by Tradu; 2020-07-07 at 03:23 PM.
    Tradushuffle
    <Echoes>
    Laughing Skull-EU

  9. #929
    I think the most ironic thing about this entire "min/max vs. do whatever you want" is the fact that a lot of people who are in opposition to min/max'ing raise the argument that said competitive nature forces people to play the game a certain way.

    Yet what they totally miss:
    Some people enjoy min/max'ing, that's how those people want to play the game, they want to crunch the numbers, find out what's optimal and not simply close their eyes and pretend everyone is equal.
    The desire to improve oneself is by no means something alien, especially in a multiplayer video game.

    People who want to "free" others from the "tyranny" of min/max'ing, also tell you how to play the game, because if you min/max rather than just pick whatever, you're an elitist scumbag.
    Reminds me of the saying "The revolution eats its own children".

    And as if such barriers imposed by the covenant system would stop that, look what sort of loops people are jumping through in Classic in order to get an advantage (World buffs).

    The only way to salvage this without occuring degenerate behavior is to make the choices less relevant, which in turn makes the entire system bad because then the choice has no meaning on the basis of it having no significant impact.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-07-07 at 03:31 PM.

  10. #930
    Legendary!
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Eorzea
    Posts
    6,030
    Quote Originally Posted by Tradu View Post
    No, that person's performance is enough to clear the content as long as other people in the group are doing more to compensate.
    What? Of course not, the example we are discussing clearly assumes that the person is capable of doing the minimum needed to kill the boss and that a group composed of similar players would still kill the boss:

    I can raid mythic with whatever the hell I want as long as I handle the mechanics and put out decent numbers.
    This is the start.

    If you pull decent numbers in a mythic raid, the boss dies. It's the minimum to kill a Mythic Raid Boss.

  11. #931
    Mechagnome Recovery's Avatar
    3+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    645
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Yes, it would, because that person's performance is enough to clear the content.

    I don't know why you keep assuming that it isn't. It's weird.
    the persons performance is enough to clear because others ARE OVERPERFORMING.

    how do you not see that? lol

  12. #932
    Legendary!
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Eorzea
    Posts
    6,030
    Quote Originally Posted by Recovery View Post
    the persons performance is enough to clear because others ARE OVERPERFORMING.
    Nice assumption.

    The whole discussion is pointless when your arguments rely on reaching. We are losing our time here.

  13. #933
    Mechagnome Recovery's Avatar
    3+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    645
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Nice assumption.

    The whole discussion is pointless when your arguments rely on reaching. We are losing our time here.
    No one is reaching. You just refuse to admit that youre wrong and being carried.. or your example is being carried.. whatever.

    If youre basing your argument off of hitting minimum and someone is grossly out performing the minimum (in your example, you used doubling the lowest person) then the lowest person is not hitting the minimum and theyre being carried. Plain and simple. You're not understanding because youre looking at the encounter as infinite. A boss has a set amount of hp meaning the amount of damage it can take is finite. If someone is capable of DOUBLING your performance, it means your performance is not at the minimum. Very simple concept. If you are at the minimum then thats a pre determined minimum thats decided based off of the maximum that the other do, which still means youre being carried.

    Again look at it in terms of percentage. 100% boss hp. 5 dps. Minimum for each of the 5 individually would be 20% to down the boss. one person does 30% 3 people do 20% and you do 10%. Boss went down, you didnt do the average minimum, you were carried.

    How are you satisfied knowing that the rest of your group just needs a "body"?
    Last edited by Recovery; 2020-07-07 at 03:58 PM.

  14. #934
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    I didn’t realize you were comparing arms to the mage/hunter examples. Fair points. So it’s safe to assume the mastery corruptions are the same issue?
    No, because the Corruption says it empower your Mastery Value from all sources by 12% (T3) which translate for every Specc in different percentage Mastery Boost. Its different from a flat gain 10% Mastery.

  15. #935
    Warchief taishar68's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV USA
    Posts
    2,167
    Quote Originally Posted by Caparino View Post
    No, because the Corruption says it empower your Mastery Value from all sources by 12% (T3) which translate for every Specc in different percentage Mastery Boost. Its different from a flat gain 10% Mastery.
    Yeah, I always forget that; my son and I talk about it and I always forget. That's what happens when you get old
    "Can't you see this is the last act of a desperate man?"
    "We don't care if it's the first act of Henry the Fifth, we're leaving!"

  16. #936
    Mechagnome Recovery's Avatar
    3+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Dec 2019
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    645
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    Yeah, I always forget that; my son and I talk about it and I always forget. That's what happens when you get old
    yep, the reason mastery is good on mage is because for EACH T3 masterful it increases every mastery source you have by 12%. This includes static mastery on gear, any procs / on use, mastery from traits, enchants, food buffs, sockets, the mastery that you get your from your crit rating during combustion, etc. Mages have so many mastery sources and ignite deals damage based off of it.

  17. #937
    Quote Originally Posted by recovery View Post
    yep, the reason mastery is good on mage is because for each t3 masterful it increases every mastery source you have by 12%. This includes static mastery on gear, any procs / on use, mastery from traits, enchants, food buffs, sockets, the mastery that you get your from your crit rating during combustion, etc. Mages have so many mastery sources and ignite deals damage based off of it.
    how dare you min/max, you no life jerk !

  18. #938
    Warchief taishar68's Avatar
    15+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV USA
    Posts
    2,167
    I think the points regarding doing the minimum as opposed to the maximum, while fine on their own merits, don't apply directly to the covenant issue, in my opinion.

    We shouldn't hold someone who chooses Night Fae over Venthyr, for example, to the same criticism as someone who shows up to a raid missing enchants, no flasks or food. Especially because no covenant ability is going to gimp someone so bad that they will hold back a group from ever completing a raid, and if you're good enough to get a boss within 5%, you're going to down it, and soon. Obviously, guilds vying for world firsts are in a strata all their own, but if a rank and file guild is demanding people play Covenant X or else, it's a them problem, not a Blizzard problem.

    Which should not be construed, dear reader, as a tacit approval of the Covenant system; I feel it is flawed and arbitrarily punished players who always want to be the best, while not really providing a true sense of accomplishment by virtue of its uniqueness. Am I arguing from both sides of the fence? Yes. *

    *as written earlier, all opinions subject to change pending actually playing the damn thing
    "Can't you see this is the last act of a desperate man?"
    "We don't care if it's the first act of Henry the Fifth, we're leaving!"

  19. #939
    Quote Originally Posted by A Chozo View Post
    Nice assumption.

    The whole discussion is pointless when your arguments rely on reaching. We are losing our time here.
    Like half of every raid I've been in suffers from "well, if only we had 19 other me's we could one-shot all mythic bosses, but some fucks gotta bum around and suck at the game and here we are at 4/8 bosses."

    I don't mind it to the point of being inconvenienced enough to go server hopping or applying for another guild, but this whole arguing for reasons as to why people DON'T need to min/max is simply an affront to my time. I'm here to fucking win, and I wouldn't USE teammates if I didn't have to. As well, there are certain things and time constraints I'm also not interested in pursuing. Further than that, the type of fuck that isn't about going to the Nth degree (as far as something stupid simple and easy, like covenants, correct talents, gear stats, etc) is already of a mentality that is not conducive to kills.

    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    We shouldn't hold someone who chooses Night Fae over Venthyr, for example, to the same criticism as someone who shows up to a raid missing enchants, no flasks or food.
    Beg to differ. Maybe at the start of the xpac when we don't have real-world data on what will be best, otherwise... you're intentionally hampering yourself same as any other shortcoming.

    Especially because no covenant ability is going to gimp someone so bad that they will hold back a group from ever completing a raid
    Someone hasn't seen the discrepancies in...
    corruptions
    azerite powers
    legendaries
    etc
    Last edited by BeepBoo; 2020-07-07 at 04:17 PM.

  20. #940
    Quote Originally Posted by taishar68 View Post
    I think the points regarding doing the minimum as opposed to the maximum, while fine on their own merits, don't apply directly to the covenant issue, in my opinion.

    We shouldn't hold someone who chooses Night Fae over Venthyr, for example, to the same criticism as someone who shows up to a raid missing enchants, no flasks or food. Especially because no covenant ability is going to gimp someone so bad that they will hold back a group from ever completing a raid, and if you're good enough to get a boss within 5%, you're going to down it, and soon. Obviously, guilds vying for world firsts are in a strata all their own, but if a rank and file guild is demanding people play Covenant X or else, it's a them problem, not a Blizzard problem.

    Which should not be construed, dear reader, as a tacit approval of the Covenant system; I feel it is flawed and arbitrarily punished players who always want to be the best, while not really providing a true sense of accomplishment by virtue of its uniqueness. Am I arguing from both sides of the fence? Yes. *

    *as written earlier, all opinions subject to change pending actually playing the damn thing
    Yes and no. Venthyr will probably be the go-to in high mm+. So if you pick your best covenant for raid and if it is not Venthyr, you won't be able to do high key as you will rejected because you won't have the tp to skip.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •