"Forced" or "Mandatory" covenants

[taishar68]

how dare you min/max, you no life jerk !

True story...I have not raided past normal in BfA, and have a single +2 in Mythics.

And yet I optimize my spec with gear and enchants (to the best of my abilities), and I approach every piece of group content like I jumped out of a Higgins boat at Normandy. Why? Because I feel I owe it to the other players to do my best; they're giving their time to me as well as me, so why half ass it.

And I do blame Blizzard, in some ways, for being less than optimal. Icy Veins says Arcane Mages should use Worldvein Resonance. Which means I have to farm Islands. Which I hate. So lies the catch 22 that is BfA, and, being fair, Covenants have that potential, at least in the sense that someone might hate a Covenant, but align with them and do it's end game activities because they feel the need for X ability.

[Echocho]

What seems to be clear is that there is a market for a single player RPG in the Warcraft universe.

That game cannot be WoW, because WoW is an MMO. There are things you can do in single player RPGs that you just can't in an MMO. Your character can have a real impact on the world. Not just the odd bit of phasing here and there. You can choose things to happen. Permanently, throughout the entire world of your playthrough. Big things. Not like in an MMO where everything you kill pops back up somewhere between a few minutes to a week later.

An MMO will always be a half-arsed version of a single player game if it tries to be a single player game. If people want a single player game, ask for a single player game, because it will be better than trying to shoehorn it into a different genre.

Where did you get a stupid idea like that? Just because a lot of us want meaningful choice in our RPGs and not some call of duty loadout crap doesn't mean we want a single player RPG.

[taishar68]

Like half of every raid I've been in suffers from "well, if only we had 19 other me's we could one-shot all mythic bosses, but some fucks gotta bum around and suck at the game and here we are at 4/8 bosses."

I don't mind it to the point of being inconvenienced enough to go server hopping or applying for another guild, but this whole arguing for reasons as to why people DON'T need to min/max is simply an affront to my time. I'm here to fucking win, and I wouldn't USE teammates if I didn't have to. As well, there are certain things and time constraints I'm also not interested in pursuing. Further than that, the type of fuck that isn't about going to the Nth degree (as far as something stupid simple and easy, like covenants, correct talents, gear stats, etc) is already of a mentality that is not conducive to kills.


Beg to differ. Maybe at the start of the xpac when we don't have real-world data on what will be best, otherwise... you're intentionally hampering yourself same as any other shortcoming.


Someone hasn't seen the discrepancies in...
corruptions
azerite powers
legendaries
etc

I've seen the discrepancies, and I do not believe Covenant abilities, in their current state, are analogous. And, if Blizzard takes a hard line on switching covenants, unless you are in a hyper competitive guild, it's lame to punish someone for Blizzard's design.

[Specialka]

True story...I have not raided past normal in BfA, and have a single +2 in Mythics.

And yet I optimize my spec with gear and enchants (to the best of my abilities), and I approach every piece of group content like I jumped out of a Higgins boat at Normandy. Why? Because I feel I owe it to the other players to do my best; they're giving their time to me as well as me, so why half ass it.

And I do blame Blizzard, in some ways, for being less than optimal. Icy Veins says Arcane Mages should use Worldvein Resonance. Which means I have to farm Islands. Which I hate. So lies the catch 22 that is BfA, and, being fair, Covenants have that potential, at least in the sense that someone might hate a Covenant, but align with them and do it's end game activities because they feel the need for X ability.

Oh yeah, I miss the time where you would just need to farm stuff and call it done to do high end content. You would not have to farm azerite, essence, etc...

But yeah, I can't go into a raid with an half ass character because I am too lazy to optimize it. You do something to full or you do not do it.

[Sofo1]

remove player power from covenants and you are not forced to do anything.

It's been said million times, 1 covenant will be the best dps whise -> blizz will nerf it -> people will be pissed because of their investment in that covenant -> they have to mend the situation.

[Recovery]

True story...I have not raided past normal in BfA, and have a single +2 in Mythics.

And yet I optimize my spec with gear and enchants (to the best of my abilities), and I approach every piece of group content like I jumped out of a Higgins boat at Normandy. Why? Because I feel I owe it to the other players to do my best; they're giving their time to me as well as me, so why half ass it.

And I do blame Blizzard, in some ways, for being less than optimal. Icy Veins says Arcane Mages should use Worldvein Resonance. Which means I have to farm Islands. Which I hate. So lies the catch 22 that is BfA, and, being fair, Covenants have that potential, at least in the sense that someone might hate a Covenant, but align with them and do it's end game activities because they feel the need for X ability.

You can go even further into that and ask yourself why you would play Arcane when you can far outperform it by playing fire? lol

[taishar68]

Yes and no. Venthyr will probably be the go-to in high mm+. So if you pick your best covenant for raid and if it is not Venthyr, you won't be able to do high key as you will rejected because you won't have the tp to skip.

Well, some classes (Lock, Rogue, Mage, Druid, Monk, off the top of my head) don't really need it, but I don't doubt that the pug community will make it a demand. This is the real challenge for Blizzard because of the popularity of M+; with too many people making it a gate to content, I fear the community, instead of banding together and proving you can do high keys without it, will just quietly not do the content and I think the game is lessened because of it.

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You can go even further into that and ask yourself why you would play Arcane when you can far outperform it by playing fire? lol

Maybe you can

[Recovery]

Where did you get a stupid idea like that? Just because a lot of us want meaningful choice in our RPGs and not some call of duty loadout crap doesn't mean we want a single player RPG.

Its literally impossible for wow to have meaningful choice due to the holy trinity and the numbers each player needs for group content. There will always be a BIS for x activity and people will always want to min / max in order to make tasks less difficult and less time consuming.

[taishar68]

Oh yeah, I miss the time where you would just need to farm stuff and call it done to do high end content. You would not have to farm azerite, essence, etc...

But yeah, I can't go into a raid with an half ass character because I am too lazy to optimize it. You do something to full or you do not do it.

I have no problem farming content I think is fun; let me grind away for azerite and essences doing dungeons, WQ's, raids, heck a battleground once in a while. But boring timed content like Islands? Bleh. I'd rather cover myself in honey and lie down near a bear cave.

[Recovery]

Well, some classes (Lock, Rogue, Mage, Druid, Monk, off the top of my head) don't really need it, but I don't doubt that the pug community will make it a demand. This is the real challenge for Blizzard because of the popularity of M+; with too many people making it a gate to content, I fear the community, instead of banding together and proving you can do high keys without it, will just quietly not do the content and I think the game is lessened because of it.

Why would you down something in a more difficult manner just because you can? Most people dont have the mindset of doing something a more difficult way just because its possible. lol. I can loosen lug nuts with a tire iron, but why would i when i have an impact? I can fall this tree with a hand saw, but why would i when i have the option of using a chainsaw? lmao

[taishar68]

Why would you down something in a more difficult manner just because you can? Most people dont have the mindset of doing something a more difficult way just because its possible. lol. I can loosen lug nuts with a tire iron, but why would i when i have an impact? lol

It depends on what you consider difficult, I suppose. But also, it's a question of degrees. Say a group of 5 equally skilled and geared players (You know, that always happens XD) all with the Venthyr Covenant, defeat a +10 in 28 minutes, on a 40 minute timer. Same group, no one has the TP, and they clear it in 32-33 minutes. Not really much difference.

But I get it-in cases where not skipping a trash pack every minute would mean missing the timer, it's a valuable asset. But it isn't the communities fault if groups can't clear up to +15 without it.

But as to why would people do something, it depends on what they get out of it. It's faster to change lug nuts with an impact wrench, but changing a tire isn't a leisurely activity that you do in your spare time for personal satisfaction. Well, I mean most people, if it tickles your fancy, go for it And in this example, if someone really wants to not play Venthyr, that is the tradeoff.

[Recovery]

It depends on what you consider difficult, I suppose. But also, it's a question of degrees. Say a group of 5 equally skilled and geared players (You know, that always happens XD) all with the Venthyr Covenant, defeat a +10 in 28 minutes, on a 40 minute timer. Same group, no one has the TP, and they clear it in 32-33 minutes. Not really much difference.

But I get it-in cases where not skipping a trash pack every minute would mean missing the timer, it's a valuable asset. But it isn't the communities fault if groups can't clear up to +15 without it.

But as to why would people do something, it depends on what they get out of it. It's faster to change lug nuts with an impact wrench, but changing a tire isn't a leisurely activity that you do in your spare time for personal satisfaction. Well, I mean most people, if it tickles your fancy, go for it And in this example, if someone really wants to not play Venthyr, that is the tradeoff.

I view it as more of a nascar pit crew type deal. Everyone on the team is using an impact but one guy is taking his time with a hand wrench. lol. No one is going to want that guy on their team. M+ is timed and has rewards based off your completion time. It may not be the way everyone plays but i know that myself personally and the people i play with arent gunning to just complete the 15. We want to complete the 15 and upgrade it to 18. We obviously want to do this in the easiest and quickest way possible. Therefore, we min/max.. Everything.

[taishar68]

I view it as more of a nascar pit crew type deal. Everyone on the team is using an impact but one guy is taking his time with a hand wrench. lol. No one is going to want that guy on their team. M+ is timed and has rewards based off your completion time. It may not be the way everyone plays but i know that myself personally and the people i play with arent gunning to just complete the 15. We want to complete the 15 and upgrade it to 18. We obviously want to do this in the easiest and quickest way possible. Therefore, we min/max.. Everything.

And there is not a damn thing wrong with that, not should you feel like you have to apologize for it. But I think one of the misconceptions regarding power creep in WoW is that you don’t need to always be nth degree optimal to beat specific things. Think about this; right now, there is no universal skip option, and if a group lacks a rogue, it’s invis pots or class abilities that allow skips. But I am sure plenty of rogueless groups are getting the best gear possible by gearing those 15’s (Am I right in saying that there is no power reward for beating 16+?)

And for players like you, Covenants force gameplay restrictions, which is why the system is flawed, among others. The question ahead of us is, is that number of players so great as to warrant Blizzard to alter their design concept? We shall see.

[Specialka]

And there is not a damn thing wrong with that, not should you feel like you have to apologize for it. But I think one of the misconceptions regarding power creep in WoW is that you don’t need to always be nth degree optimal to beat specific things. Think about this; right now, there is no universal skip option, and if a group lacks a rogue, it’s invis pots or class abilities that allow skips. But I am sure plenty of rogueless groups are getting the best gear possible by gearing those 15’s (Am I right in saying that there is no power reward for beating 16+?)

And for players like you, Covenants force gameplay restrictions, which is why the system is flawed, among others. The question ahead of us is, is that number of players so great as to warrant Blizzard to alter their design concept? We shall see.

Power reward stops at +15 but there is a leaderboard and the pleasure to beat high level key.

[Echocho]

The most amazing thing to me is how some people just don't mind being terrible and getting carried. It's just really baffling. Like obviously having too big of an ego and needing to be #1 all the time is problematic for a variety of other reasons, but a total lack of pride is frankly even worse. You really just don't mind never carrying your own weight?

I'm a mythic raider, I build my character however I want and so does the rest of my team. I'm one of our top performers.
Just because you don't do whatever some spreadsheet tells you doesn't mean you're getting carried.

[Krakan]

And there is not a damn thing wrong with that, not should you feel like you have to apologize for it. But I think one of the misconceptions regarding power creep in WoW is that you don’t need to always be nth degree optimal to beat specific things. Think about this; right now, there is no universal skip option, and if a group lacks a rogue, it’s invis pots or class abilities that allow skips. But I am sure plenty of rogueless groups are getting the best gear possible by gearing those 15’s (Am I right in saying that there is no power reward for beating 16+?)

And for players like you, Covenants force gameplay restrictions, which is why the system is flawed, among others. The question ahead of us is, is that number of players so great as to warrant Blizzard to alter their design concept? We shall see.

Has blizzard ever developed content around the idea of you can do whatever and succeed at end game? Can a group of frost mages marksman hunters hit the dos check of the last boss?

I honestly don't think they can. What you want is a wonderful dream but it wont ever happen.

[Tyris Flare]

Just reiterating again that I don't even see what is good about intractable covenant choices even for casual players.

In the absolute BEST case scenario, you love your covenant abilities...and they will still get stripped away in two years with a new expansion. And this time, they probably won't even return in the form of talents.

This is not just a bad system for min-maxers!

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I'm a mythic raider, I build my character however I want and so does the rest of my team. I'm one of our top performers.
Just because you don't do whatever some spreadsheet tells you doesn't mean you're getting carried.

I never said anything about spreadsheets? If you are performing well then that has nothing to do with you.

The point is that I don't understand how some people can just gray parse over and over for months and apparently not care about getting carried.

[taishar68]

Has blizzard ever developed content around the idea of you can do whatever and succeed at end game? Can a group of frost mages marksman hunters hit the dos check of the last boss?

I honestly don't think they can. What you want is a wonderful dream but it wont ever happen.

I'm not sure if they have, but to a certain degree, they should. I think heroic raids and Mythic dungeons, to a point, SHOULD be doable by any combination of specs and abilities. And I'll wager a pint that is the case, even today. I don't think there is anything wrong with Mythic raids, really high keys, and Gladiator level PvP needing more specific spec/gear/enhancement combos, it is meant to be challenging.

[Echocho]

Has blizzard ever developed content around the idea of you can do whatever and succeed at end game? Can a group of frost mages marksman hunters hit the dos check of the last boss?

I honestly don't think they can. What you want is a wonderful dream but it wont ever happen.

I'm not sure if they have, but to a certain degree, they should. I think heroic raids and Mythic dungeons, to a point, SHOULD be doable by any combination of specs and abilities. And I'll wager a pint that is the case, even today. I don't think there is anything wrong with Mythic raids, really high keys, and Gladiator level PvP needing more specific spec/gear/enhancement combos, it is meant to be challenging.

Back in vanilla you could fall ass backwards on your keyboard regardless of character and spec and still clear every piece of content. But then again Classic is a joke when it comes to difficulty, every single LFR encounter today has more mechanics and every single class has more than 1 button to press in their core rotation.
I'm also fine with mythic etc. being more challenging but they shouldn't design the rest of the game around that. I'm not much of a dungeoneer or pvp-player but my mythic team does just fine bringing classes and speccing in ways other than what some spreadsheet says, but apparently that's wrong and you should treat the spreadsheets as bibles and exile ourselves if we deviate from it.

[Specialka]

Back in vanilla you could fall ass backwards on your keyboard regardless of character and spec and still clear every piece of content. But then again Classic is a joke when it comes to difficulty, every single LFR encounter today has more mechanics and every single class has more than 1 button to press in their core rotation.
I'm also fine with mythic etc. being more challenging but they shouldn't design the rest of the game around that. I'm not much of a dungeoneer or pvp-player but my mythic team does just fine bringing classes and speccing in ways other than what some spreadsheet says, but apparently that's wrong and you should treat the spreadsheets as bibles and exile ourselves if we deviate from it.

Yes you do fine, but you would do better if you would bring the fotm than a survival hunter. That's what is said.