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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    I'm a little rusty on more recent laws passed, but so far as I'm aware being terminally stupid doesn't justify attempted homicide. It makes you an awful judge of character and prone to exceptionally poor decisions, but that defense wouldn't hold up and it would just make the perpetrators look even worse. "Hey, look, i know this dude paid me to ice my roomie because they have beef from way back, but in my defense roomie is a serious fucking idiot who deserved it because he got me caught up in all this," is the fastest possible defense I can think of to guarantee maximum sentencing.
    Mercy-killing isn't legal, no. But it's not that they shafted the orcs and that justifies the orcs wiping them out or that the orcs lack culpability, it's that even from a view of pure self-interest, the draenei's actions were braindead and actively contributed to them ending up as they did.

    Also to amend a previous comment, the draenei did fight the Bladewind Clan, and despite being able to easily defeat it, Velen opted to live and let live with them. He didn't contact them nor any of the more reasonable clans like the Frostwolves, Whiteclaw or Shadowmoon and he didn't even have a show of force despite having humiliated the Gorians a little while ago.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-07-08 at 12:03 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

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  2. #122
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Mercy-killing isn't legal, no. But it's not that they shafted the orcs and that justifies the orcs wiping them out or that the orcs lack culpability, it's that even from a view of pure self-interest, the draenei's actions were braindead and actively contributed to them ending up as they did.
    That's also true. However, Cparle seems to be under the impression that the draenei having an abusive ex who paid off their new roommates does absolve the roommate of all culpability, which is not how this works. Especially not when all evidence points immediately to this not being a one-off affair for the Mag'har who went right back to it as soon as they resettled, and it took two times around for them to start realizing maybe they were being really shitty people (three if you count being on the receiving end of their own behavior also failed to present a reality-check for them and they instead presented themselves as being unfairly hunted down by their new besties).
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by cparle87 View Post
    You're being pursued by an intergalactic army who annihilate entire worlds for sport. Settling on a world you know has intelligent life is the epitome of stupidity. What do they call it in real life? Reckless endangerment homicide?
    Reckless endangerment explicitly means a choice was made. They crash landed, and that's not a choice nor is it acting in disregard of danger.

    Every bad thing that has happened to orcs happened because the most wanted race in the world chose to settle there.
    Oh, poor little orcs! They willingly gave themselves to demons, but hey no problem. They massacred another race, including sacrificing children to demons, and walked away from it. They massacred their way up an entire continent, but horror of horrors weren't allowed to go their merry way when defeated. They violently escaped, stole ships, and generously limited their murders to military trying to stop them.

    They have NEVER paid for their crimes. They have NEVER done the right thing for the right reasons. Stop this absurd orc apologist crap, or at least go ahead and say "The Draenei should have just let the Legion murder them!" You won't though, because it'd remove yet another bullshit excuse for the orcs.

    Dickman above put it well.
    If ignoring the crash landing and violently rebuffed attempts to talk to the orcs are putting it well, I'd hate to see putting it poorly.


    Edit:
    To address some of the points made while I was composing this post:
    - No, you do not deserve to be murdered because someone with a vendetta is chasing you. What kind of sick thinking is that?
    - How exactly were the Draenei supposed to deal with a dying/void Naru?
    - They did not settle, they were forced to settle.
    - The Draenei left Argus with the clothes on their backs. There are canon statements about Draenor being NOTHING compared to Argus. How then were they supposed to prepare a defense against the Legion?
    - They were trying to hide since fleeing was no longer an option.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2020-07-08 at 12:15 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Also to amend a previous comment, the draenei did fight the Bladewind Clan, and despite being able to easily defeat it, Velen opted to live and let live with them. He didn't contact them nor any of the more reasonable clans like the Frostwolves, Redwalkers or Shadowmoon and he didn't even have a show of force despite having humiliated the Gorians a little while ago.
    Velen is such a piece of shit, yeah its fine if some of our people are captured and raped, lets do nothing about it. Then he lets people die in shatt to ensure the survival and in legion he spits on all of these sacrifices, the moment he realizes his genocidal son is still alive and is about to blow up the rest of his race. His first reaction? He turns against you trying to save an individual, who has most likely a higher kill count than all the native azeroth races combined,just because this monster is his son.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Thage View Post
    That's also true. However, Cparle seems to be under the impression that the draenei having an abusive ex who paid off their new roommates does absolve the roommate of all culpability, which is not how this works. Especially not when all evidence points immediately to this not being a one-off affair for the Mag'har who went right back to it as soon as they resettled, and it took two times around for them to start realizing maybe they were being really shitty people (three if you count being on the receiving end of their own behavior also failed to present a reality-check for them and they instead presented themselves as being unfairly hunted down by their new besties).
    It's comparable to leaving your door unlocked in a high crime neighbourhood while already knowing a serial killer is after you and beginning to fill it with expensive merchandise. You aren't criminally liable when you are mugged, but your stupidity enabled that conclusion and made it inevitable given the circumstances. It's even more inexcusable if you already had this happen several times already. How easily the AU! Orcs were swayed as compared to the hoops jumped through in the main universe, especially in Chronicle Vol. 2 makes the case excusing the orcs very difficult, but it plus Yrel recruiting orcs for her jihad shows how easily those same orcish traits could be turned to the draenei's favour should they wished to. Their technological superiority and foreknowledge of a Legion invasion also means they had no excuse not to at least prepare themselves against the other races, given they are called the draenei precisely due to that kind of subversion. A subversion that took a lot less work to bring about than how the main universe orcs got swayed at that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro
    If ignoring the crash landing and violently rebuffed attempts to talk to the orcs are putting it well, I'd hate to see putting it poorly.
    There were no violently rebuffed attempts. Chronicle says in plain text that Velen deliberately never made any contact re: the Genedar.

    @Combatbulter

    The 'lol, it's just a small minority of our people getting raped and our caravans getting raided year on year, we can cope with that' bit is absolutely baffling.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-07-08 at 12:12 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Reckless endangerment explicitly means a choice was made. They crash landed, and that's not a choice nor is it acting in disregard of danger.

    Oh, poor little orcs! They willingly gave themselves to demons, but hey no problem. They massacred another race, including sacrificing children to demons, and walked away from it. They massacred their way up an entire continent, but horror of horrors weren't allowed to go their merry way when defeated. They violently escaped, stole ships, and generously limited their murders to military trying to stop them.

    They have NEVER paid for their crimes. They have NEVER done the right thing for the right reasons. Stop this absurd orc apologist crap, or at least go ahead and say "The Draenei should have just let the Legion murder them!" You won't though, because it'd remove yet another bullshit excuse for the orcs.

    If ignoring the crash landing and violently rebuffed attempts to talk to the orcs are putting it well, I'd hate to see putting it poorly.
    Never paid for their crimes? Are you serious? To this day, every non-Horde race brings it up as justification for murdering them wholesale. You don't punish genocide with more genocide.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Reckless endangerment explicitly means a choice was made. They crash landed, and that's not a choice nor is it acting in disregard of danger.
    The Draenei made a choice and that choice was sitting on their hands waiting to be slaughtered and what a surprise their shitty choice got them slaughtered like they deserved for their sheer stupidity. They are the most selfish race in the setting, that never put in the work necessary to even try to halt the legion, they were stuck and what did these darwin award winning champions do? Fuck all, they don't reach out to the arrakkoa, who at one point had a high society, they don't fortify, they don't militarize, they just build cities. But then again just like the eredar they were too busy crawling before their masters, waiting for them to tell them what to do.
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2020-07-08 at 12:16 AM.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    There were no violently rebuffed attempts. Chronicle says in plain text that Velen deliberately never made any contact re: the Genedar.
    Oh cool, another retcon to excuse the poor little Orcs, who've suffered so much as they leave behind a body count worthy of the Legion. Rise of the Horde said otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  9. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Oh cool, another retcon to excuse the poor little Orcs, who've suffered so much as they leave behind a body count worthy of the Legion. Rise of the Horde said otherwise.
    Orcs are pieces of shit, but so are the Draenei plain and simple.

  10. #130
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    It's comparable to leaving your door unlocked in a high crime neighbourhood while already knowing a serial killer is after you and beginning to fill it with expensive merchandise. You aren't criminally liable when you are mugged, but your stupidity enabled that conclusion and made it inevitable given the circumstances. It's even more inexcusable if you already had this happen several times already. How easily the AU! Orcs were swayed as compared to the hoops jumped through in the main universe, especially in Chronicle Vol. 2 makes the case excusing the orcs very difficult, but it plus Yrel recruiting orcs for her jihad shows how easily those same orcish traits could be turned to the draenei's favour should they wished to. Their technological superiority and foreknowledge of a Legion invasion also means they had no excuse not to at least prepare themselves against the other races, given they are called the draenei precisely due to that kind of subversion. A subversion that took a lot less work to bring about than how the main universe orcs got swayed at that.
    This is kind of a side note (because I think we're ultimately saying the same thing to each other with different sentences), but Yrel and the Lightbound present an interesting notion. If they make their way to the main universe and integrate with the Lightforged, they, the night elves, and worgen could provide some proactive troublemaking in the Alliance (I'll wait you for to stop laughing, it's okay, I couldn't keep a straight face with that, either), especially if they learn the Horde is harboring the Mag'har and that the Mag'har went back to old habits as soon as they settled in during the Fourth War.

    If the Horde were to court the Defias or Syndicate to shore up their presence in the Eastern Kingdoms (the Syndicate being the most obvious choice here given the Horde had allied with Alterac before, and the Syndicate might be desperate enough to give it another go if it means pushing the Alliance and ogres out of Alterac's former territories), this could also open up those orcs who joined the Lightbound to the Alliance. Don't worry, I'll wait for you to stop laughing again. Couldn't keep a straight face typing that one, either. I mean, complex interfaction tensions with the potential for the Alliance to visibly* be the aggressor and the Alliance and Horde being on the receiving end of a proxy war for a change, potentially causing them to rethink their policies on proxy wars every time they make landfall somewhere new? Right, that'd be the day.

    *Starred for emphasis, since there are records where the Alliance threw the first punch but did so in a novel or a now-removed quest line, leaving the Horde looking like the aggressors when they're typically more guilty of large-scale escalation than incitement.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The Draenei made a choice and that choice was sitting on their hands waiting to be slaughtered and what a surprise their shitty choice got them slaughtered like they deserved for their sheer stupidity. They are the most selfish race in the setting, that never put in the work necessary to even try to halt the legion, they were stuck and what did these darwin award winning champions do? Fuck all, they don't reach out to the arrakkoa, who at one point had a high society, they don't fortify, they don't militarize, they just build cities. But then again just like the eredar they were too busy crawling before their masters, waiting for them to tell them what to do.
    It's almost like the Arrakoa were added after the main orc/draenei story, without any thought whatsoever of the implications. Another fine example of WoD screwing things up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Orcs are pieces of shit, but so are the Draenei plain and simple.
    Draenei are written the way they are as Metzen tried to flail his way into turning the orcs into something besides demon fueled monsters. His desperation to redeem his precious orcs have caused more retcons and absurdities than anything else.
    Last edited by Feanoro; 2020-07-08 at 12:21 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Oh cool, another retcon to excuse the poor little Orcs, who've suffered so much as they leave behind a body count worthy of the Legion. Rise of the Horde said otherwise.
    There's no version of the story after the TBC draenei retcon where the Draenei weren't a) aware of the Legion having hunted them down every other time, b) aware of the naaru in the Genedar, which we know can be cleansed even when it's far more corrupted like Velen does at the end of the Shadowmoon questing area, c) more advanced and powerful than the separate clans and arguably the whole Horde barring the element of surprise and trick weapons like the red mist.

    This is kind of a side note (because I think we're ultimately saying the same thing to each other with different sentences), but Yrel and the Lightbound present an interesting notion. If they make their way to the main universe and integrate with the Lightforged, they, the night elves, and worgen could provide some proactive troublemaking in the Alliance (I'll wait you for to stop laughing, it's okay, I couldn't keep a straight face with that, either), especially if they learn the Horde is harboring the Mag'har and that the Mag'har went back to old habits as soon as they settled in during the Fourth War.
    More sad than laughing but the line is thin these days. I genuinely can't tell you if I'd prefer the Lightbound join up with the Alliance to give them more of an actually proactive edge or to have them be a major neutral enemy. The former would theoretically be the better choice and open far more story-telling opportunities, both intra-faction and with the Horde, given the Mag'har, Calia and even the blood elves. But in practice, we all know they'd get the Tyrande/Jaina treatment in five minutes and as a neutral enemy they have the benefit of far more screentime and ample reasons to oppose both factions given the Alliance's suicidal compromises, of the kind she, unlike Velen, avoided making and the Horde's track record and roster. That and I love the aesthetic we briefly saw with the Xenedar and the golden field next to it, plus the descriptions in a Thousand Years of War.

    There was a massive misfire done with how the Lightforged were handled from their introduction. Everything from their aesthetic to their backstory and their leader, that being Xe'ra, not Turalyon and Captain Whoeverthefuck makes clear that they were meant to be what the Lightbound ended up being. A militant group intimately tied to the Light who are genuinely benevolent but at the same time dogmatic and consider letting others make the wrong choices and harm others to be unconscionable. Conceptually they're perfectly positioned to do this without Yrel. Hell, you could transplant AU!Yrel's personality onto Fareeya and no one would bat an eye since no one would ever have thought Yrel would end up that way before hand. The benefit of having such a character on the Alliance is endless. And yet, they've never actually existed - their first appearance has them okay with the void-corrupted elf, okay with Xe'ra's death after 25k years, deferring to a human with a fraction of their experience and alright with deferring to Illidan. The pre-patch and the void elves entering the Alliance is the nail in the coffin. It's one of the failings with massive consequences that doesn't get much attention and it's one of those that I'm at a loss as to how you can fix without some retcons. Not just for themselves or the void elves, but the concept of mortals who are part of the cosmic powers in general and any credibility to both the Light and Void as major players given how easily they are subverted. The Kyrians are pretty much what I'd have wanted from the Lightforged mindset-wise.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-07-08 at 12:32 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    It's almost like the Arrakoa were added after the main orc/draenei story, without any thought whatsoever of the implications. Another fine example of WoD screwing things up.
    The Draenei are a retcon and it shows, but it is what it is, making them pretty much contender for the most stupid race in existence and one of the most vile.

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    The Draenei made a choice and that choice was sitting on their hands waiting to be slaughtered and what a surprise their shitty choice got them slaughtered like they deserved for their sheer stupidity. They are the most selfish race in the setting, that never put in the work necessary to even try to halt the legion, they were stuck and what did these darwin award winning champions do? Fuck all, they don't reach out to the arrakkoa, who at one point had a high society, they don't fortify, they don't militarize, they just build cities. But then again just like the eredar they were too busy crawling before their masters, waiting for them to tell them what to do.
    That's not true though. The Lightforged draenei are also part of the original group. They were the elite warriors of their race. Velen's group obviously had all the civilians. Which does explain why they are so passive and only built cities. The trained combatants(the Lightforged) were literally fighting the Legion for thousands of years literally took the fight to the Legion's headquarters in Argus. That's literally the opposite of not doing shit. Doesn't really matter in the end though since it was thanks to Velen's draenei building the Vindicaar that allowed the Legion to ultimately be defeated.
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    That's not true though. The Lightforged draenei are also part of the original group. They were the elite warriors of their race. Velen's group obviously had all the civilians. Which does explain why they are so passive and only built cities. The trained combatants(the Lightforged) were literally fighting the Legion for thousands of years literally took the fight to the Legion's headquarters in Argus. That's literally the opposite of not doing shit. Doesn't really matter in the end though since it was thanks to Velen's draenei building the Vindicaar that allowed the Legion to ultimately be defeated.
    It is true, since they didn't all commit to the war effort, which is why I underlined necessary effort, instead the Draenei went about to live their daily routines, while in some cases their literal family butchered others by the trillions. Their entire society should have been restructured, civilians should no longer exist period, every aspect of their society should be turned on one single goal, stopping the legion, which means actively recruiting races, developing new technologies, having tons of children for the war effort, building fortress cities with prolonged sieges in mind, infiltration, subversion, assassination etc. the cozy lives they lived, should have never existed with the existential threat they faced.

  16. #136
    The fact that after the draenei crashed Velen didn't bother to even contact the Naaru or the AoL until after it was obvious the horde was working for the legion is too big of a fuck up to be handwaved by his meth visions telling him to do nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is true, since they didn't all commit to the war effort, which is why I underlined necessary effort, instead the Draenei went about to live their daily routines, while in some cases their literal family butchered others by the trillions. Their entire society should have been restructured, civilians should no longer exist period, every aspect of their society should be turned on one single goal, stopping the legion, which means actively recruiting races, developing new technologies, having tons of children for the war effort, building fortress cities with prolonged sieges in mind, infiltration, subversion, assassination etc. the cozy lives they lived, should have never existed with the existential threat they faced.
    You can argue velen not telling the orcs about the legion or trying to get off draenor was a blunder of the century tier mistake (because it was). But It's not fair to say the draenei should have spent their time exclusively preparing every race to fight a force that cannot be beaten by conventional means unless you have the exact specific confluence of macguffins and plot armour blizzard asspulled to let Azeroth 'win'.
    Last edited by Saltysquidoon; 2020-07-08 at 12:41 AM.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post
    That's not true though. The Lightforged draenei are also part of the original group. They were the elite warriors of their race. Velen's group obviously had all the civilians. Which does explain why they are so passive and only built cities. The trained combatants(the Lightforged) were literally fighting the Legion for thousands of years literally took the fight to the Legion's headquarters in Argus. That's literally the opposite of not doing shit. Doesn't really matter in the end though since it was thanks to Velen's draenei building the Vindicaar that allowed the Legion to ultimately be defeated.
    The last part is true, but the early parts gives the regular draenei far too little credit in terms of ability. While the Lightforged and how their entire military mindset of the kind that @Combatbulter describes would gel with the draenei who tried and failed to live their lives is yet another plotline we won't see, the draenei aren't defenseless. They give the orcs a good fight, they have trained warriors, mages and constructs and even right after landing when Shattrath is just popping up and they're at their weakest without a pair of centuries to prepare they easily defeat the Gorian ogres. Hell, that they could build the Vindicaar using just the crashed Exodar parts and a far smaller population goes to show they can do shit when they actually try, but they didn't, to a suicidally negligent degree on Draenor.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  18. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is true, since they didn't all commit to the war effort, which is why I underlined necessary effort, instead the Draenei went about to live their daily routines, while in some cases their literal family butchered others by the trillions. Their entire society should have been restructured, civilians should no longer exist period, every aspect of their society should be turned on one single goal, stopping the legion
    As an aside, my, that worked out narratively so well for Night Elves, whose reward was to be Worfed beyond recognition.

    which means actively recruiting races, developing new technologies, having tons of children for the war effort, building fortress cities with prolonged sieges in mind, infiltration, subversion, assassination etc. the cozy lives they lived, should have never existed with the existential threat they faced.
    WAY more thought than Metzen put into it, because he doesn't know jack shit about military strategy and tactics, just "duuuuuuuuuuuuude cooooooool!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    It is true, since they didn't all commit to the war effort, which is why I underlined necessary effort, instead the Draenei went about to live their daily routines, while in some cases their literal family butchered others by the trillions. Their entire society should have been restructured, civilians should no longer exist period, every aspect of their society should be turned on one single goal, stopping the legion, which means actively recruiting races, developing new technologies, having tons of children for the war effort, building fortress cities with prolonged sieges in mind, infiltration, subversion, assassination etc. the cozy lives they lived, should have never existed with the existential threat they faced.
    Well, they aren't the only race to take existential threats as non issues that ultimately result in the genocide of their race. Look at the High elves and the Scourge as another example.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The last part is true, but the early parts gives the regular draenei far too little credit in terms of ability. While the Lightforged and how their entire military mindset of the kind that @Combatbulter describes would gel with the draenei who tried and failed to live their lives is yet another plotline we won't see, the draenei aren't defenseless. They give the orcs a good fight, they have trained warriors, mages and constructs and even right after landing when Shattrath is just popping up and they're at their weakest without a pair of centuries to prepare they easily defeat the Gorian ogres. Hell, that they could build the Vindicaar using just the crashed Exodar parts and a far smaller population goes to show they can do shit when they actually try, but they didn't, to a suicidally negligent degree on Draenor.
    Obviously if they actually tried to resolve the problem with every possible action there would be 2 outcomes.

    1. The Legion gets defeated.

    2. The Draenei get defeated.

    Clearly that's "not the story blizzard wants to tell."
    "Father, is it over? I see only darkness before me."

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Tripzzz View Post

    Obviously if they actually tried to resolve the problem with every possible action there would be 2 outcomes.

    1. The Legion gets defeated.

    2. The Draenei get defeated.

    Clearly that's "not the story blizzard wants to tell."
    I don't actually consider it irrreparably bad writing, mind, since most of this gets touched upon later as having a role. After ages as refugees I can believe that the draenei would settle down, ditto I can buy that Velen, having grown dependant on visions, is reluctant to act if he isn't 100% sure of the consequences of his actions. There's a thousand things that they could've done better, but I don't think it's incoherent that they didn't, with the exception of the business with the Bladewind Clan which is really inexcusable. The worst bits of the new draenei narrative are forced by the backstory - including their defeat which as they've become more and more advanced has required more and more tools to achieve. I find the Chronicle version holds up pretty well in that regard, but it's impossible to both make the draenei act reasonably and not have the story fall apart.

    This was a story beat intented to have the draenei be neighbouring peaceful savages. The draenei retcon opens massive issues with that have yet to at once preserve the end result and not require them to act like suicidal morons.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2020-07-08 at 12:54 AM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

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