Do you still support Donald Trump?

[Kellhound]

What do you think of Trump forcing meat processing workers during a pandemic, to return to work?

Not a fan of making them work.

[Thee ANCOM]

Or you realize the choice is between working for less/same or not having your job. Unions are not a win-win situation most of the time.

I am well versed in the entire economic spectrum, which is why I know there is no pure economic system in reality.

yet you're still very quick to insinuate anyone who doesn't agree with you is on the extreme end of the spectrum.

And we dont, which is why we now lament about the degradation of our manufacturing and the death of the middle class.

then keep lamenting? I am baffled how you seem to think this line of argument is going to get people over to your side.

[Healing Rain]

Yes, I still support Donald Trump.

-He saved us from a Crooked Hillary presidency. Now the first woman president can be someone everyone can rally around, like Nikki Haley.
-He exposed that the "liberal media" wasn't a joke, but a dangerous reality.
-He's stood his ground against a Democrat Party that represents everything that's wrong with political parties..
-

[Kellhound]

Do you rather robust steel making or robust steel working?

In 1967 the US made about 23% of the world's steel, in 2019 that dropped to under 5%. The US used more steel in 1967 than it did in 2019. So we have neither robust steel making nor robust steel working compared to 1967.

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yet you're still very quick to insinuate anyone who doesn't agree with you is on the extreme end of the spectrum.



then keep lamenting? I am baffled how you seem to think this line of argument is going to get people over to your side.

I insinuated nothing. Communism is the "natural" foil of Capitalism, but Stalinism is what the USSR actually had.

I am not stupid enough to think anything anyone says here will change peoples thinking.

[Thee ANCOM]

wow, what a coward.

[Draco-Onis]

And we dont, which is why we now lament about the degradation of our manufacturing and the death of the middle class.

But that is false manufacturing is booming has been for decades. We just switched from low skill to higher skilled workers with higher pay.

Our problem is we don't have the educational and training programs in place needed because of greed.

[Themius]

In 1967 the US made about 23% of the world's steel, in 2019 that dropped to under 5%. The US used more steel in 1967 than it did in 2019. So we have neither robust steel making nor robust steel working compared to 1967.

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I insinuated nothing. Communism is the "natural" foil of Capitalism, but Stalinism is what the USSR actually had.

I am not stupid enough to think anything anyone says here will change peoples thinking.

The US uses more steel than it produces and they use that steel to make products that are more expensive and contribute more to the GDP than pure steelwhy don't you try thinking these things through.

[Thee ANCOM]

But that is false manufacturing is booming has been for decades. We just switched from low skill to higher skilled workers with higher pay.

Our problem is we don't have the educational and training programs in place needed because of greed.

shocking to see that markets shift over the course of half a century...

[Themius]

But that is false manufacturing is booming has been for decades. We just switched from low skill to higher skilled workers with higher pay.

Our problem is we don't have the educational and training programs in place needed because of greed.

His argument is like "We used to grow all the cotton to make all our own clothing by hand! But now people are using looms!!! Now people are buying cotton from other countries!"

Meanwhile ignoring that buying cotton to then be massed loomed is more profitable

[Kellhound]

But that is false manufacturing is booming has been for decades. We just switched from low skill to higher skilled workers with higher pay.

Our problem is we don't have the educational and training programs in place needed because of greed.

We switched from a high number of unskilled workers to a much smaller number of skilled workers. Automation is bringing manufacturing back, but it is not bringing back many jobs. Even then, manufacturing makes up less than half of the GDP that it did in the 1960's, and is now even less important than the government in GDP creation.

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His argument is like "We used to grow all the cotton to make all our own clothing by hand! But now people are using looms!!! Now people are buying cotton from other countries!"

Meanwhile ignoring that buying cotton to then be massed loomed is more profitable

For a smaller number of people.

[DKjaigen]

Not like the democrats who's entire platform is about middle class growth would do that... nope... not like government funded healthcare, and schooling helps the working class nope..

You know what helps the working class? Giving corporations trillions, so they can lay off the working class and then buy back their own stock thereby not creating any jobs but just fabricating extra wealth in what used to be stock manipulation until another republican actor got rid of the law that made it illegal. That certainly helps the yeomen, right?

Ignorance is bliss i guess.

[Draco-Onis]

We switched from a high number of unskilled workers to a much smaller number of skilled workers. Automation is bringing manufacturing back, but it is not bringing back many jobs. Even then, manufacturing makes up less than half of the GDP that it did in the 1960's, and is now even less important than the government in GDP creation.

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For a smaller number of people.

Also false because new manufacturing requires other high skilled workers to support it. That's why there are shortages in those sectors, you seem to be reading from a very old playbook.

[Shadowferal]

Steel Crisis



By 1989, the American steel industry cut operating costs by 35% and increased labor productivity by 38%. U.S. Steel exported steel profitably for the first time in a decade.

[Kaleredar]

And we dont, which is why we now lament about the degradation of our manufacturing and the death of the middle class.

Manufacturing was on its way out regardless. The only "mistruth" here is some president promising that jobs that wont ever come back or jobs for dying industries will return in spades, instead of requiring people to do what actually needs to be done, which is retrain for new and applicable jobs.


As for the "death of the middle class," simply look to history. The times when tax rates on top earners were highest, (we're talking ~90% taxation,) the wealth inequality was smallest. (In essence, the middle class was the largest.) And this was during the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s, the so-called "halcyon days of America" with your ideals of quaint middle-class nuclear families and white picket fences.

Then look at when the marginal tax rate on top earners was lowest... the 1920s going into the 1930s, and then in the early 2000s to now... So in essence, leading up to the great depression and then the recession of the 2000s and the one Trump is now spinning us into.

It seems that businesses had no problems starting up when top earners were being taxed literally 90% of their income. However, when those tax numbers were greatly reduced and top earners were allowed to keep more and more of their income, the rest of the economy (and consequently, the middle class) entered times of great economic turmoil.

(And no, the middle class, by definition, are not "top earners.")

[Kellhound]

Also false because new manufacturing requires other high skilled workers to support it. That's why there are shortages in those sectors, you seem to be reading from a very old playbook.

There is a shortage because there is a much smaller number of people that can perform the new jobs than the ones who could do the old jobs. If you replace 100 jobs with 10 better ones, but can only find 5 that can do it, you have a worker shortage. US employment in manufacturing is just now getting back to what it was in 2007, but is still only 75% of what it was in 1985 (in actual # of employees), even though the US population has increase by almost 40% in that time. So both the actual number of manufacturing employees and the ration of them to the total population have dropped significantly over time.

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Steel Crisis



By 1989, the American steel industry cut operating costs by 35% and increased labor productivity by 38%. U.S. Steel exported steel profitably for the first time in a decade.

The US currently is the largest net importer of steel in the world, not that it imports that much compared to the world's production.

[PC2]

History is not data and can never be used to determine probability of the future... I literally laughed out loud at this abhorrently ridiculous statement.

What do you think the word data means?

Are you familiar with the phrase historical data quite literally historical data is used to project the future. Within some error bound.

Are you aware of the arguments again made 200 years ago, that were based on history 100 years prior to that, that predicted issues we face to this very day? That history affects today no? And in fact many issues were projected back then based on history further back still..

Actually that has never reliably worked and it won't ever work in the future either as a matter of principle. However if you think that does work then simply use it to make betting decisions. Since you believe it can tell you the future ahead of time this means you're going to be a very rich person once you apply it to gambling scenarios.

Have you been to university?

Yeah but for online forums you should only be debating the merit of ideas and not worrying about personal details.

[Kellhound]

Manufacturing was on its way out regardless. The only "mistruth" here is some president promising that jobs that wont ever come back or jobs for dying industries will return in spades, instead of requiring people to do what actually needs to be done, which is retrain for new and applicable jobs.


As for the "death of the middle class," simply look to history. The times when tax rates on top earners were highest, (we're talking ~90% taxation,) the wealth inequality was smallest. (In essence, the middle class was the largest.) And this was during the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s, the so-called "halcyon days of America" with your ideals of quaint middle-class nuclear families and white picket fences.

Then look at when the marginal tax rate on top earners was lowest... the 1920s going into the 1930s, and then in the early 2000s to now... So in essence, leading up to the great depression and then the recession of the 2000s and the one Trump is now spinning us into.

It seems that businesses had no problems starting up when top earners were being taxed literally 90% of their income. However, when those tax numbers were greatly reduced and top earners were allowed to keep more and more of their income, the rest of the economy (and consequently, the middle class) entered times of great economic turmoil.

(And no, the middle class, by definition, are not "top earners.")

The number of new jobs is less than the number of old jobs, and require an entire different skill set, which is not an easy transition for many people.

Today you are seeing an increase in the number of upper class, former middle class getting paid for their knowledge of tech, and an increase in the lower class, because the service industry jobs that are replacing manufacturing jobs pay less.

[Themius]

Ignorance is bliss i guess.

Oh? Explain this to me.

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Actually that has never reliably worked and it won't ever work in the future either as a matter of principle. However if you think that does work then simply use it to make betting decisions. Since you believe it can tell you the future ahead of time this means you're going to be a very rich person once you apply it to gambling scenarios.



Yeah but for online forums you should only be debating the merit of ideas and not worrying about personal details.

That has never worked? My god what planet do you live on.

Your idea has zero merit. Your idea is pure folly. Your idea exist in your own fantasy world.

In reality history matter. Matter determines what will be because things that are, are for a reason which is due to, you guess it, history and the past.

[Thekri]

Manufacturing was on its way out regardless. The only "mistruth" here is some president promising that jobs that wont ever come back or jobs for dying industries will return in spades, instead of requiring people to do what actually needs to be done, which is retrain for new and applicable jobs.

Manufacturing is not on the way out, it is changing. Much like Agriculture did. In fact, Agriculture is the dominate reason for the changing US economy, not Manufacturing. Manufacturing was a relatively temporary boom, lasting from the last few decades of the 19th Century to about two thirds of the way through the twentieth. Agriculture was the primary industry for labor, and had been for millennia.

The productivity of Agriculture is higher then it has ever been, but it has fragmented, between capitol intensive mechanized farming, which is largely done in developed countries, and labor intensive agriculture, which is largely done in developing nations (With some being immigrant labor in developed countries). Manufacturing is following exactly the same pattern. At the upper end of the scale, US Manufacturing is very much alive. I work in Manufacturing, in a huge plant that makes giant things out of steel. But pretty much nobody in that plant makes less than $30 an hour, and most make considerably more. It wouldn't be efficient to make our steel, so we buy it. We buy most components actually, isn't worth paying the labor costs to produce it here, even though we have more then enough skill. Instead, we use this plant to do the design, experimentation, assembly, and quality stages of each product. We do all the complex bits and moving parts, but we don't cast the frames and such.

A lot of people like looking at the world through nostalgia goggles, and claiming unions killed manufacturing. They didn't. Low shipping costs and global resource availability "Killed" manufacturing. It never died, and it isn't likely too, but the good old days with 1500 workers in a plant are never coming back. We can run it just fine with 150.

[PC2]

That has never worked? My god what planet do you live on.

Your idea has zero merit. Your idea is pure folly. Your idea exist in your own fantasy world.

In reality history matter. Matter determines what will be because things that are, are for a reason which is due to, you guess it, history and the past.

Okay so if i'm wrong and that idea has merit then you should exploit it by betting more and more of your money on future events. Put your money where your mouth is.