Mega-Thread: Gun Control Thread

[the game]

There was a 1911 I wanted very much.. the Para Ordnance Black Ops Recon. came in 14.45 or 9.18 double stack. It vanished from the market long before I had the money to actually spend on it. Then Remington, having acquired Para, basically started making it again as the R1 Recon. And pretty much right as I was ready to buy it you could never find them anymore. I don't know if they made like 20 each or if it's just the most in-demand damn pistol ever but I kind of irrationally dislike Remington for that little tease.

My shotgun is a Mossberg 500, can't go wrong.

I bet you could find that 1911 at that gun shop in Colorado. Dragon Arms and a military museum. The owner is a class III arms dealer.

[Specialka]

Does anyone have an explanation to the reasons of the number of deaths in the USA due to firearms ? Same for the impressive numbers of shooting or mass-shooting ?

[Ghostpanther]

Does anyone have an explanation to the reasons of the number of deaths in the USA due to firearms ? Same for the impressive numbers of shooting or mass-shooting ?

The death's are mainly in high crime, gang/drug related cities. And more people die each year in the US from automobile accidents then they do from criminals using guns. 2/3 of the number of deaths using guns, is from suicides. And you do not need a large number of death's in order to meet the definition of a mass shooting.

And we have a Second Amendment in our Constitution, which is naturally going to result in more firearms being present in the public. Hard to exercise a Constitutional right, if you do not have the means to get the item in order to exercise it. And exercising a Constitutional right, should never be overly burdensome. In other words, liberty has never been without some cost.

[Specialka]

The death's are mainly in high crime, gang/drug related cities. And more people die each year in the US from automobile accidents then they do from criminals using guns. 2/3 of the number of deaths using guns, is from suicides. And you do not need a large number of death's in order to meet the definition of a mass shooting.

And we have a Second Amendment in our Constitution, which is naturally going to result in more firearms being present in the public. Hard to exercise a Constitutional right, if you do not have the means to get the item in order to exercise it. And exercising a Constitutional right, should never be overly burdensome. In other words, liberty has never been without some cost.

And what do you think of country banning or severely restricting firearms ? (like a lot of countries on Europe for instance). Don't you think that second amendment is problematic ? I'd like to have the opinions of ppl pro-firearms and cons-firearms.

And don't you think that the police is more likely to shoot if the ppl they face are most probably armed even for a routine identity check ?

[the game]

And what do you think of country banning or severely restricting firearms ? (like a lot of countries on Europe for instance). Don't you think that second amendment is problematic ? I'd like to have the opinions of ppl pro-firearms and cons-firearms.

And don't you think that the police is more likely to shoot if the ppl they face are most probably armed even for a routine identity check ?

Should we ban alcohol to stop people from drunk driving? How many people are killed every year from drunk driving accidents?

[Specialka]

Should we ban alcohol to stop people from drunk driving? How many people are killed every year from drunk driving accidents?

We should ban car driving then as well.

Can we be serious plz ? How are those countries banning guns ? Why do they do that and I do not think we see a rise in crime and such ? So what do you think of those countries ?

[Ghostpanther]

And what do you think of country banning or severely restricting firearms ? (like a lot of countries on Europe for instance). Don't you think that second amendment is problematic ? I'd like to have the opinions of ppl pro-firearms and cons-firearms.

And don't you think that the police is more likely to shoot if the ppl they face are most probably armed even for a routine identity check ?

Other countries should have the right to determine their own destiny and decide their own laws.

And no, the Second Amendment is necessary to have for the peaceful citizens, a means to defend themselves and a firearm is a much greater effective tool for such than others. Esp. for those who are not strong physically.

Yes, the police are going to encounter more people who are armed here. Most of those they do encounter, great majority, will not be a threat to the police. It is the criminals who present the threat.

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We should ban car driving then as well.

Can we be serious plz ? How are those countries banning guns ? Why do they do that and I do not think we see a rise in crime and such ? So what do you think of those countries ?

No, we do not need to ban driving cars. If you look at the number of cars being driven on the roads in the US, then compare it to the number of death's from that, you will see it is ridiculously low.

We are being serous. Some want to ban guns or restrict them to the point of being ridiculous.

Other countries have a easier time of banning guns because the citizens do not have a Constitutional right to keep and carry them.

I am not concerned what other people in other countries do as long as it does not effect our country in a negative way.

I think those countries should make laws they want.

[Specialka]

Other countries should have the right to determine their own destiny and decide their own laws.

And no, the Second Amendment is necessary to have for the peaceful citizens, a means to defend themselves and a firearm is a much greater effective tool for such than others. Esp. for those who are not strong physically.

Yes, the police are going to encounter more people who are armed here. Most of those they do encounter, great majority, will not be a threat to the police. It is the criminals who present the threat.

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No, we do not need to ban driving cars. If you look at the number of cars being driven on the roads in the US, then compare it to the number of death's from that, you will see it is ridiculously low.

We are being serous. Some want to ban guns or restrict them to the point of being ridiculous.

Other countries have a easier time of banning guns because the citizens do not have a Constitutional right to keep and carry them.

I am not concerned what other people in other countries do as long as it does not effect our country in a negative way.

I think those countries should make laws they want.

You should buy a irony detector with your next gun.

On a serious note, how are the other countries at peace since they banned the guns (or restricted them) ?

Listening to you, we could believe that guns are needed for protection when they are in fact needed because everyone has one, and everyone could use it at any moment.

So obviously, everyone will easily use one when they know that most others ppl they encounter can use theirs.

How about mass shooting or even shooting ? There are a lot of those, even more than any others countries it seems.

[Ghostpanther]

You should buy a irony detector with your next gun.

On a serious note, how are the other countries at peace since they banned the guns (or restricted them) ?

Listening to you, we could believe that guns are needed for protection when they are in fact needed because everyone has one, and everyone could use it at any moment.

So obviously, everyone will easily use one when they know that most others ppl they encounter can use theirs.

How about mass shooting or even shooting ? There are a lot of those, even more than any others countries it seems.

Mainly because the US happens to be the most powerful nation in the world if you mean at peace and not in a war. In terms of crime rate , there are many factors to consider than just using one factor. And some have a very large impact on the statistics, other than just access to firearms.

The media here, for political reasons, like to paint a much darker picture of gun related death's then they do with other death's.

There are people who are handicapped and as we all grow older, the bodies will decay. A simple fact of life. They can not defend themselves from a much stronger attacker. The elderly are often preyed upon by the younger criminals, because they understand this fact.

Well yeah, a knife, pokey stick, fists, are generally not going to be effecitve against someone with a firearm. Which once again, comes back to the point I made above this.

What about them? They often happen because of a lack of good security at the place of the mass shooting. In some cases, it is like shooting fish in a barrel and of course, hard to defend yourself from a gunman, when the place you are at, does not allow you to carry a firearm.

The number of citizens who die from mass shootings, pales in comparison to many other cases of preventable deaths in the US. And like I said before, I am not concerned about the laws in other countries, if they are not causing harm for us here in the US.

[Specialka]

Mainly because the US happens to be the most powerful nation in the world if you mean at peace and not in a war. In terms of crime rate , there are many factors to consider than just using one factor. And some have a very large impact on the statistics, other than just access to firearms.

The media here, for political reasons, like to paint a much darker picture of gun related death's then they do with other death's.

There are people who are handicapped and as we all grow older, the bodies will decay. A simple fact of life. They can not defend themselves from a much stronger attacker. The elderly are often preyed upon by the younger criminals, because they understand this fact.

Well yeah, a knife, pokey stick, fists, are generally not going to be effecitve against someone with a firearm. Which once again, comes back to the point I made above this.

What about them? They often happen because of a lack of good security at the place of the mass shooting. In some cases, it is like shooting fish in a barrel and of course, hard to defend yourself from a gunman, when the place you are at, does not allow you to carry a firearm.

The number of citizens who die from mass shootings, pales in comparison to many other cases of preventable deaths in the US. And like I said before, I am not concerned about the laws in other countries, if they are not causing harm for us here in the US.

How is that in other countries, elder ppl are rarely preyed upon by criminals ?

Interesting how you are not interested in seeing things evolved while some of the countries with the most restrictive laws about guns also have the lowest crime rate. Granted there are tons of social issues in the USA which lead to more violence from a portion of the population which lead to more guns overall, etc...

[Ghostpanther]

How is that in other countries, elder ppl are rarely preyed upon by criminals ?

Interesting how you are not interested in seeing things evolved while some of the countries with the most restrictive laws about guns also have the lowest crime rate. Granted there are tons of social issues in the USA which lead to more violence from a portion of the population which lead to more guns overall, etc...

If you are a victim, does rarely matter to you?

While in some ways, a different topic than the thread is for, I will keep it short by saying....when it comes to my neighbors, as long as they are not doing anything to endanger the health or safety of myself and family, I really do not give a shit what they do. In other words, I try to mind my own business and am not a busy body or in world terms, a globalist.

[Specialka]

If you are a victim, does rarely matter to you?

While in some ways, a different topic than the thread is for, I will keep it short by saying....when it comes to my neighbors, as long as they are not doing anything to endanger the health or safety of myself and family, I really do not give a shit what they do. In other words, I try to mind my own business and am not a busy body or in world terms, a globalist.

Yeah, sounds like an insult. And you do not answer my question, how is taht elder ppl are rarely mugged in other countries but not in the USA according to you ?

How can you explain the crime rate in the United States despite ppl having so many guns ? According to firearms apologists, that crime rate should be low since everybody can just defend themselves ? How do you explain that countries where firearms are banned/restricted have lower crime rate ?

[Zan15]

A breakdown? Your analytic capabilities are comparable to your knowledge (or rather lack thereof) about this topic. If someone who isn't supposed to for one reason or another ends up with his hands on the gun, then he isn't a legitimate gun owner by mere definition. The only difference is whether to fault the system, which I suppose accounts for the minority of cases, or the black market.

As to the brilliant point you make, I'll just point out that anyone can end up killing someone period. A gun, a hammer, a chemical, a car, your bare hands, a kitchen knife, a broken glass bottle, a shank, a syringe, a rope... your bare hands. And I hate to break it to you further because it must come as a shocking revelation to you but everyone is good till they are not. It's what our legal systems are based on.

Awwh you had to go an insult me instead of acting like an adult. Well you are a....ummm... meany head. There I said it...!!!!


I used to get paid a lot of money for my analytical skills in health insurance. Maybe you should contact them and consult them on getting a refund.

Let me know next time someone kills 20 3rd graders with a broken glass bottle in just a few minutes. Maybe someone can throw some kitchen knifes off a hotel from a dozen floors up and kill 30-40-50 people....

But i guess insulting me is easier than actually looking at the data and providing backup to statements and "facts" presented here.

And I hate to break it to you further because it must come as a shocking revelation to you but everyone is good till they are not. It's what our legal systems are based on.

If you paid attention you would see that was my whole point, that every time someone (ghostpanther) post a feel good story about a "good guy with a gun" saving the day as a way to support their 2A stance it's a bullshit way to show how great the 2A is and gun ownership/defense.

If enough people become "not good" with guns, wouldn't you say there might be a problem that needs to be addressed?


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It is clear you see all gun owners as criminals.

Nope, don't see my father as a criminal.
Don't see my older brother as a criminal.
Didn't see my mom as a criminal.
Didn't see most of my parents neighbors as criminals who all owned guns.
I don't see most people in general as criminals, including gun owners.

More crazy assumptions. You should make this a profession you are good at it.

I also see you did not bother to include "normal" murders in your "hard on crime stance", but seem to put terrorism, gun ownership, mass murder and white collar crime at the same level.....

As for murders, I don't see a need to change the current punishments on the books.
I mean you don't get much more punished then possible life sentences for murder with or without a gun. I am not apposed to the death penalty either for murder.

Shocking being all LUBRAL and stuffs huh?

i am not 100% sure I have ever voiced my opinion on actual sentencing and punishment here on the forums for that specifically for you to assume anything. But i guess that won't stop you from over generalizing people based on their assumed political spectrum.

"I make the point that anyone who owns (insert a wide range of physical objects) can end up killing someone." You really are more concerned about the weapon than the intent.....

.

Anyone should be.
So how many people are you going to kill with a knife vs a handgun vs AR15 vs bomb vs etc etc etc..??
Our laws are also based on that fact.
That is why there is vehicular charges if you kill someone with a car. Specific charges if you use a bomb.
Seems a lot of people are concerned with the weapon so much so they have made many laws to address and more severely punish those people based on the "wide range of physical objects" they might use.
And I support those extra punishment's just as much as i support extra punishment for those crimes when a firearm is used.

Damn there goes my LUBRAL card, i will have to forfeit it
(even though i am not technically a liberal on all or even the majority of my stances just the ones that are the most visible here)

A study by the Department of Justice on violent felony convictions in the 75 largest counties in the US between 1990 and 2002 found that 58% of convicted murders had a prior conviction and 67% had a prior arrest.

linky linky.

Good now you are starting to bring actual factual information to the table instead of basic assumptions.
Lets roll with this! Gimee some good data!

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The death's are mainly in high crime, gang/drug related cities. And more people die each year in the US from automobile accidents then they do from criminals using guns. 2/3 of the number of deaths using guns, is from suicides. And you do not need a large number of death's in order to meet the definition of a mass shooting.

And we have a Second Amendment in our Constitution, which is naturally going to result in more firearms being present in the public. Hard to exercise a Constitutional right, if you do not have the means to get the item in order to exercise it. And exercising a Constitutional right, should never be overly burdensome. In other words, liberty has never been without some cost.

Holy hell son how many times do you need to deflect to Cars and continue to ignore the sheer number of cars and usage of cars vs guns in your claims?
We've only been over this a thousand times in this thread.
Maybe its time to take a few thousand people off your ignore list so you can actually have a debate in this thread and learn something.

. And you do not need a large number of death's in order to meet the definition of a mass shooting.

.

Wait, did you really just.?.?? Ya you did make excuses that mass shooting problem is because we actually track them.
COVID is also a problem because we test too many people right?

Hell we could triple the number required and still would outpace the world by multiples.

. In other words, liberty has never been without some cost.

All good as long its someone else is suffering the "cost"

[Svifnymr]

There was a 1911 I wanted very much.. the Para Ordnance Black Ops Recon. came in 14.45 or 9.18 double stack. It vanished from the market long before I had the money to actually spend on it. Then Remington, having acquired Para, basically started making it again as the R1 Recon. And pretty much right as I was ready to buy it you could never find them anymore. I don't know if they made like 20 each or if it's just the most in-demand damn pistol ever but I kind of irrationally dislike Remington for that little tease.

Cerberus (then Freedom Group, then just Remington) was an investment company that bought Remington, Bushmaster, Marlin, DPMS, AAC, Para Ordnance, NEF (I think) and a few more. They then did the normal investment company routine of consolidating, driving up debt, removing all the money they could, then playing with bankruptcy.

Quality plummeted at all of the companies after the mergers and stuff. The former owners of Bushmaster (that had sold to Remington) later hired all the Bushmaster people that Remington fired to form Windham Arms (so basically a new Bushmaster company). It's a shame since I liked DPMS a lot back in the day. Also means my AAC Element 2 is probably not going to have a warranty...

I think Marlin is the biggest loss, hopefully the Navajo buy Remington and actually produce stuff to a good standard. I'd love a Navajo made lever gun of all things.

My shotgun is a Mossberg 500, can't go wrong.

Yeah, 590a1 here, no problems.

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And what do you think of country banning or severely restricting firearms ? (like a lot of countries on Europe for instance). Don't you think that second amendment is problematic ? I'd like to have the opinions of ppl pro-firearms and cons-firearms.

Luckily, you have access to a giant megathread that has years of back and forth from both sides, so plenty of reading if you'd like to give it a dive.

And don't you think that the police is more likely to shoot if the ppl they face are most probably armed even for a routine identity check ?

I'm sure we could get rid of a few amendments to make it easier on cops.

[Ghostpanther]

Yeah, sounds like an insult. And you do not answer my question, how is taht elder ppl are rarely mugged in other countries but not in the USA according to you ?

How can you explain the crime rate in the United States despite ppl having so many guns ? According to firearms apologists, that crime rate should be low since everybody can just defend themselves ? How do you explain that countries where firearms are banned/restricted have lower crime rate ?

Explain to me how it was a insult? It was a matter of fact statement, that if you are a victim, you really do not care about the statistics at that moment. Even if I lived in a country with the chances extremely low of being assaulted and killed, I would still want to have the right to carry a firearm to defend myself.

I already stated that the great majority of crimes committed using a firearm in the US, are drug/gang related and usually in specific large cities. So does the US have a drug abuse and a gang mentality issue? For sure.

[Zan15]

Explain to me how it was a insult? It was a matter of fact statement, that if you are a victim, you really do not care about the statistics at that moment. Even if I lived in a country with the chances extremely low of being assaulted and killed, I would still want to have the right to carry a firearm to defend myself.

I already stated that the great majority of crimes committed using a firearm in the US, are drug/gang related and usually in specific large cities. So does the US have a drug abuse and a gang mentality issue? For sure.

the irony coming from the guy that said this

Come on, do not get personal or I will have to put you on ignore.

SNIP

Without getting off topic too much, when you use the expression "you are" rather than "your argument is " along with a expletive, it can be easily taken as personal.

So easy to point the finger but can't understand when someone else takes offense.

[Kellhound]

Nope, don't see my father as a criminal.
Don't see my older brother as a criminal.
Didn't see my mom as a criminal.
Didn't see most of my parents neighbors as criminals who all owned guns.
I don't see most people in general as criminals, including gun owners.

More crazy assumptions. You should make this a profession you are good at it.


As for murders, I don't see a need to change the current punishments on the books.
I mean you don't get much more punished then possible life sentences for murder with or without a gun. I am not apposed to the death penalty either for murder.

Shocking being all LUBRAL and stuffs huh?

i am not 100% sure I have ever voiced my opinion on actual sentencing and punishment here on the forums for that specifically for you to assume anything. But i guess that won't stop you from over generalizing people based on their assumed political spectrum.

Anyone should be.
So how many people are you going to kill with a knife vs a handgun vs AR15 vs bomb vs etc etc etc..??
Our laws are also based on that fact.
That is why there is vehicular charges if you kill someone with a car. Specific charges if you use a bomb.
Seems a lot of people are concerned with the weapon so much so they have made many laws to address and more severely punish those people based on the "wide range of physical objects" they might use.
And I support those extra punishment's just as much as i support extra punishment for those crimes when a firearm is used.

Damn there goes my LUBRAL card, i will have to forfeit it
(even though i am not technically a liberal on all or even the majority of my stances just the ones that are the most visible here)


linky linky.

Good now you are starting to bring actual factual information to the table instead of basic assumptions.
Lets roll with this! Gimee some good data!

I base my assumptions off of what you say, not what I think your political leanings are. "TW feel free to check out my comments on political criminals in the current administration and see how soft on criminals i am. Also on terrorist, mass shooters, gun owners, corporate and financial fraud...etc etc." So, that would seem to very much include "gun owners" as criminals.

How do you get harsher punishments? Simple, sentence ANY intentional attempt to kill a person not in self defense as murder with a manditory life in prison w/o parole. No plea bargains, no multiple tiers of homicide, just either you intentionally performed an action that a normal person would know could lead to the death of another person, or you didn't. Just as any felon found in possession of a firearm should be sent to prison for life.

I can intentionally kill multiple people with any of the items you listed, or with a baseball bat, hatchet, etc. All those different charges all come down to treating criminals differently. Just like you think the tool changes how murder should be treated (I guess their are murders that are more acceptable to you than others). Get rid of all of them, just make it a simple "murder" and lock them away forever. Of course it would be better if prison was more like it was 150 years ago.

I have a long standing tradition of not doing research for others. Try Google, it will give you the same information.

[Specialka]

Explain to me how it was a insult? It was a matter of fact statement, that if you are a victim, you really do not care about the statistics at that moment. Even if I lived in a country with the chances extremely low of being assaulted and killed, I would still want to have the right to carry a firearm to defend myself.

I already stated that the great majority of crimes committed using a firearm in the US, are drug/gang related and usually in specific large cities. So does the US have a drug abuse and a gang mentality issue? For sure.

I was refering to the term: globalist.

Even this week-end, nearly 160 ppl lost their lives to firearms (and several children as well). I can assure you that if getting a gun is hard, and no one is armed, you do not need to get one yourself as the necessity dissipate.

You do realize that most of the violence in the USA comes from the facts that most ppl is armed ? Obviously, it is far easier to kill ppl with a gun than with a knife or a blunt weapon. Again, how is that the USA have such a crime rate if everyone is armed ? If no one was armed, the crime rate would be lower as getting a weapon would be difficult, and the number of mass shooting would be lower as well. Obviously, it can't happen in a few years, as the gun tradition is well implanted in the USA culture.

What do you think about what happen in Atlanta this week end where armed people shot a car and killed a 8 years old kid ?

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I base my assumptions off of what you say, not what I think your political leanings are. "TW feel free to check out my comments on political criminals in the current administration and see how soft on criminals i am. Also on terrorist, mass shooters, gun owners, corporate and financial fraud...etc etc." So, that would seem to very much include "gun owners" as criminals.

How do you get harsher punishments? Simple, sentence ANY intentional attempt to kill a person not in self defense as murder with a manditory life in prison w/o parole. No plea bargains, no multiple tiers of homicide, just either you intentionally performed an action that a normal person would know could lead to the death of another person, or you didn't. Just as any felon found in possession of a firearm should be sent to prison for life.

I can intentionally kill multiple people with any of the items you listed, or with a baseball bat, hatchet, etc. All those different charges all come down to treating criminals differently. Just like you think the tool changes how murder should be treated (I guess their are murders that are more acceptable to you than others). Get rid of all of them, just make it a simple "murder" and lock them away forever. Of course it would be better if prison was more like it was 150 years ago.

I have a long standing tradition of not doing research for others. Try Google, it will give you the same information.

When you state something, the burden of proof is on you.

In my country, murder is treated the same way even even if it was only the intent (well, every crime or felony is dealt like that in fact) and whatever the method or weapon you used.

[PickleballAce]

Honestly... given the predilection that eurotrash have for instigating devastating world wars, letting them hold anything more dangerous than sticks and stones is probably a mistake. A disarmed european populace is a polite one for those of us outside europe.

Mind you, things would be different if they had the sense and ability to fight off fascist governments before they take root (as they should have in the early 20th century), and could be trusted with something like the 2nd Amendment, but they are an unfailingly obedient demographic. 2A would be wasted on them.

It's better off for the rest of us that only their government has the firepower and we wouldn't have to deal with firearms "behind every blade of grass" on top of that.

[Specialka]

Honestly... given the predilection that eurotrash have for instigating devastating world wars, letting them hold anything more dangerous than sticks and stones is probably a mistake. A disarmed european populace is a polite one for those of us outside europe.

Mind you, things would be different if they had the sense and ability to fight off fascist governments before they take root (as they should have in the early 20th century), and could be trusted with something like the 2nd Amendment, but they are an unfailingly obedient demographic. 2A would be wasted on them.

It's better off for the rest of us that only their government has the firepower and we wouldn't have to deal with firearms "behind every blade of grass" on top of that.

Did you forget that the USA elected Trump as a president ? Granted it was not the population that voted for him since the voting system is broken in the US, but still ?

Can you define fascism ?