Is WoW Light on RPG Elements?

[Demithio]

I'm going to assume you mean 'nooks and crannies' and 'smell the roses' type of things that make up the RPG part.

Current WoW is essentially void of RPG elements in a traditional sense. It was never an RPG giant (eg LORTO); however, it did has some elements there during its first years of life. As we know, most to all of these RPG elements have been removed in favor of 'high action'.

[Powerogue]

Yes but I'm not sure how they'd "recapture" that. Bring back more of WoW Classic's class-specific inconveniences, like hunters consuming an entire bag for ammo or rogues having to level two extra professions?

[LilSaihah]

you know what a rpg element would be? if you had several groups (lets call them covenants) that you had to make a choice to join. and it would be hard to rejoin them if you decided to leave and join another one.

yeah. thats why there arent many rpg elements. because people want to have their cake and eat it too.

Honestly it's really difficult to peg what an "RPG element" is, beyond the feel of the game. That said, consequences having no weight really doesn't help.

Hm. I can choose my race, gender, appearance, class, specialization, gear appearace, and modify some spells. That very sentence pretty much cements that WoW is an RPG.

Final Fantasy 7 is an RPG; probably one of the most famous ones. You do not get to choose your race, gender, appearance, class, specialization or gear appearance.
As far as modifying spells go... Is that what really makes an RPG? Battlefield 3 lets you modify your gun with different kinds of scopes, rounds and attachments; does that make Battlefield 3 an RPG?

[Cosmic Janitor]

Final Fantasy 7 is an RPG; probably one of the most famous ones. You do not get to choose your race, gender, appearance, class, specialization or gear appearance.
As far as modifying spells go... Is that what really makes an RPG? Battlefield 3 lets you modify your gun with different kinds of scopes, rounds and attachments; does that make Battlefield 3 an RPG?

That is why the gaming community has branded games like FF7 a JRPG, because this style is very prevalent in japanese RPGs that really only want to tell you their story while keep you busy with grinding inane shit monsters that make no sense what so ever (random ass planes filled with robo-dinosaur-gods and shit like that..). Traditionally western RPGs tried to stay closer to their pen & paper roots and allowed you to make your own character. Even a game like the Witcher3 is not really an RPG in that sense and more of an action adventure with some RPG elements - it just has such a good story with choices and fleshed out characters that people often forget about that fact and just call it an RPG, despite this being more of a secondary characteristic.

Anyway, people have been making a distinction between classical RPGs and games that only have RPG elements for ages.

[cparle87]

Honestly it's really difficult to peg what an "RPG element" is, beyond the feel of the game. That said, consequences having no weight really doesn't help.



Final Fantasy 7 is an RPG; probably one of the most famous ones. You do not get to choose your race, gender, appearance, class, specialization or gear appearance.
As far as modifying spells go... Is that what really makes an RPG? Battlefield 3 lets you modify your gun with different kinds of scopes, rounds and attachments; does that make Battlefield 3 an RPG?

Choosing those things isn't mandatory but is common. Simply breaking down the name, role-playing game. You take it on the role or persona of a character in the game and play as them. Typically able to customize your character to your liking. People who argue "RPG elements are being removed" at the same time they complain about customization options even existing makes no sense.

[Soon-TM]

Is it worth doing? Depends. Many players decisions are driven by loot. So if there is a choice to be made, it will be made based on which is the best reward to improve their character.

Agree with the whole post, but especially with this part. Besides, Ion seems to be well aware of the fact of min maxing and everything it entails. This part is particularly noteworthy:

"Today, people are almost trained to min-max,” says Hazzikostas, referring to the play strategy of minimizing weaknesses and maximizing strengths. “The community pushes people in that direction, especially socially. Even if it’s not your preferred playstyle, the people who may want you in your group or may not, are holding you to some of those standards. Once it’s knowable, you’re expected to know.”

So he knows there will be strong community reactions, but still he wants to push dem covenants like npnp. It's truly head scratching, if you ask me.

[Venziir]

WoW stripped away almost all of the RPG elements it once had to cater to a general audience that was never particularly interested in playing the game anyway. Things that were annoying, that felt unnecessary, were also immersive and important.

Weapon skills being maxed out was important for a melee class even if it was annoying, but the process of maxing them out was still something that felt good to do. The old talent system, while equally susceptible to cookie cutter builds, also allowed a large amount of freedom to make your own builds. Wanna be a Blood DK with a pet? You can! Queuing for Dungeons and Raids was a disastrous decision, it killed server communities.

"Felt good"? Hah, oh yes, spending ages slapping those immune mobs in Shadowmoon Valley was a pure thrill!

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That is why the gaming community has branded games like FF7 a JRPG, because this style is very prevalent in japanese RPGs that really only want to tell you their story while keep you busy with grinding inane shit monsters that make no sense what so ever (random ass planes filled with robo-dinosaur-gods and shit like that..). Traditionally western RPGs tried to stay closer to their pen & paper roots and allowed you to make your own character. Even a game like the Witcher3 is not really an RPG in that sense and more of an action adventure with some RPG elements - it just has such a good story with choices and fleshed out characters that people often forget about that fact and just call it an RPG, despite this being more of a secondary characteristic.

Anyway, people have been making a distinction between classical RPGs and games that only have RPG elements for ages.

Aside from that fact that you, litterally, roleplay as Geralt. Customizing his life, appearance, skills, love interests etc.

[Cosmic Janitor]

Aside from that fact that you, litterally, roleplay as Geralt. Customizing his life, appearance, skills, love interests etc.

And the whole point of my post was to point out that it's not a classical RPG where you make your own character. You even quoted me stating that caveat ("in that sense") Giving Geralt a new hair cut is a gimmik, not an integral part of an RPG of any kind. It's still a predefined characters whose story you follow and that you can infulence to some degree. You also can pick a few playstyles, but your customization is nowhere near as deep as making a character and freely distributing stats ranging from weekling to strongman, from barely literate dolt to highly educated wiseman, from clumsy oaf to highly dexterious and nimble fighter.

Witcher 3 is one of the best games I've ever played, easily top 3, that doesn't mean I would put it into the same category as games like DA:O or BG1 in terms of classical /traditional RPG options.

[Demithio]

WoW stripped away almost all of the RPG elements it once had to cater to a general audience that was never particularly interested in playing the game anyway. Things that were annoying, that felt unnecessary, were also immersive and important.

Weapon skills being maxed out was important for a melee class even if it was annoying, but the process of maxing them out was still something that felt good to do. The old talent system, while equally susceptible to cookie cutter builds, also allowed a large amount of freedom to make your own builds. Wanna be a Blood DK with a pet? You can! Queuing for Dungeons and Raids was a disastrous decision, it killed server communities.

Couldn't agree more. Blizzard removed all the "annoying" things in WoW that kept people playing. Of course you're not going to convince much of the new WoW crowd of this. Instant gratification and "new" gimmick systems have taken over due to design decisions Blizzard made over the years. The end result is far more boredom and far less people playing. Blizzard either forgot, or simply ignored what made WoW addictive to begin with.

[MrFawlty]

Wrong in every way. First, you are re-stating the same myth about the old talent trees. There was no freedom. Just the illuysion of it. If you want ed to play end game, you had to use the cookie cutter build or be laughed at and told "Git gud newb". Weapons kills was the stupidest most idiotic waste of time ever in the game. Also, queueing did not ruin server communities. Players did.

Wrong in every way.

[Doffen]

Seeing all the shit stuff like Covenants gets on this forum it doesn't seem like people want RPG elements anyway.

Good thing its another story in game. Anecdotal experience of course, since I don't know every wow player.

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Yes but I'm not sure how they'd "recapture" that. Bring back more of WoW Classic's class-specific inconveniences, like hunters consuming an entire bag for ammo or rogues having to level two extra professions?

Zul Aman Bear run on my hunter. Killed first boss. Ops, forgot to fill up on arrows. Had to get a friend buy arrows, portal to Quel'danas, fly down to Zul Aman while I was meleeing my way inside, and then meet up outside entrance. Good times!

[rrayy]

Wrong in every way.

Nope. I am right in every way because I saws it and experienced it. YOu declaringh me wrong doesn't change that fact.

[MrFawlty]

Nope. I am right in every way because I saws it and experienced it. YOu declaringh me wrong doesn't change that fact.

Nope sorry just because you saws it and experienced it does not make you right. If Blizzard make a change that alters players behaviour to the detriment of server communities the fault lies with them and the specifically the change they made. The same goes for any positive changes when I'm sure you would be the first to congratulate Blizzard.

[arkanon]

Weapon skills being maxed out was important for a melee class even if it was annoying, but the process of maxing them out was still something that felt good to do.

Yeah, engaging those immune mobs and afking for a cup of tea and a couple of episodes of [popular tv show] was SUPER rewarding and felt amazing to do.

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Wrong in every way.

I happen to agree with what they are saying as well, am i wrong too?

[cparle87]

Blizzard either forgot, or simply ignored what made WoW addictive to begin with.

The fact that it was easier than all the other MMOs on the market at the time? Or that it came as a perfect storm combination of timing, existing franchise strength, and other factors that are not replicable?

[rrayy]

Nope sorry just because you saws it and experienced it does not make you right. If Blizzard make a change that alters players behaviour to the detriment of server communities the fault lies with them and the specifically the change they made. The same goes for any positive changes when I'm sure you would be the first to congratulate Blizzard.

LOL You can't say nope when it actually happened. All your claim amounts to is " I'm right because I told you so". I brought facts which proves mine.

[Elise the Seeker]

It wasn't before Cata. With Cataclysm came most of the removements of WoW's rpg aspect, and each expansion afterward giving us a fraction of what we once had.

[MrFawlty]

LOL You can't say nope when it actually happened. All your claim amounts to is " I'm right because I told you so". I brought facts which proves mine.

What in my statement is factually incorrect, and what have you provided other than your blinkered opinion?

[Merin]

There aren’t many modern western RPGs left outside of indie CRPGs and WoWs claim to fame was always simplicity.

The only thing I’d argue with WoW is the initial mystery of system design and world building was lost. Current mass market doesn’t like learning curves, getting lost or ever dying, so that all had to be removed

Also have to pander to media and we’ve seen multiple media outlets who will slam your product if they can’t instantly succeed. What was the most recent foible? Didn’t Kotaku just go apeshit on the FF7 demo because the game wouldn’t let you button mash your way through the boss?