A Letter on Justice and Open Debate VS Immunity from Criticism

[Endus]

That's part of what this debate is even about. Trans "discussions" online are incredibly toxic and rip through trans people at an epic rate, and when the idea is raised that a lot of these people are particularly abusive (and not just to trans folks) to the point where one of the leading trans voices posted in frustration that she may leave the UK it's all just shouted down.

With the caveat that I'm a cishet guy, the idea that we should be discussing/debating identity, in the framing of whether some people should be treated as human beings with the same kinds of rights and freedoms and consideration as any other human being, that itself is a hostile and abusive position.

That anyone thinks that's a matter for discussion and debate is not acceptable. It is bigotry. Arguing about whether trans women should be able to use a womens' bathroom is not functionally different from arguing about whether blacks should be able to use the whites' bathroom. Same kind of bigotry. Same bullshit rationales. It isn't a "discussion", it's a demand that we allow bigotry and hate to be instituted as the law of the land. Just having that discussion is an attack.

I'm not even the target and I can see this shit clear as day.

[Machismo]

Oh yeah I'm not actually worried about JK Rowling. She is going to be fine, its cases where a Latino Worker was fired for making the OK sign and the mob thought he was a white supremacist or the one of David Shor where the mob tagged his employer to have him fired bc he did not 100% agree with the left's orthodoxy that worry me.

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...ckles/2347414/

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020...es-bennet.html

There are more cases but these are some recent ones I remember.

Once again, that's what free speech and capitalism are all about.

[Endus]

Oh yeah I'm not actually worried about JK Rowling. She is going to be fine, its cases where a Latino Worker was fired for making the OK sign and the mob thought he was a white supremacist or the one of David Shor where the mob tagged his employer to have him fired bc he did not 100% agree with the left's orthodoxy that worry me.

There is no "orthodoxy" on "the left".

Take your entirely imaginary persecution complex out of here.

Case in point; the guy who was fired for making a hand sign? That wasn't "the left" doing anything. That was his employer. No one else. Take it up with his employer.

[Elegiac]

left's orthodoxy

Yeah, the political ideology that gets into heated arguments over whether or not the term himbo is ableist has "orthodoxy".

[NED funded]

Once again, that's what free speech and capitalism are all about.

Lol I can imagine how this sort of talk would fly in the 80s were you could be shunned from society for being gay

[GreenGoldSharpie]

With the caveat that I'm a cishet guy, the idea that we should be discussing/debating identity, in the framing of whether some people should be treated as human beings with the same kinds of rights and freedoms and consideration as any other human being, that itself is a hostile and abusive position.

That anyone thinks that's a matter for discussion and debate is not acceptable. It is bigotry. Arguing about whether trans women should be able to use a womens' bathroom is not functionally different from arguing about whether blacks should be able to use the whites' bathroom. Same kind of bigotry. Same bullshit rationales. It isn't a "discussion", it's a demand that we allow bigotry and hate to be instituted as the law of the land. Just having that discussion is an attack.

I'm not even the target and I can see this shit clear as day.

Oh, you won't get any argument from me. As you referenced, all of these arguments are warmed over. "Polite discussion" hinges on "concerns" which is really nothing but concern trolling and the Opinion of the Popular Man. Same tactics are employed across the board against minorities.

The funny thing about the trans debate is those against our rights haven't offered anything since a bunch of TERFs ran Sandy Stone out of her career and Janice Raymond published the book that she repeatedly claims "that's not what I meant" about now. It's been cemented since 1980, and all that's left is these people sea lioning or being outright nasty.

Edit: BTW, Rowling is so interested in the exchange of ideas she's ignored Paris Lees' request for a sit down as well as GLAAD's.

[Machismo]

Lol I can imagine how this sort of talk would fly in the 80s were you could be shunned from society for being gay

It was also free speech, and one pushed by homophobes. But hey, if you want to compare racists and their ilk to being gay... more power to you.

[NED funded]

There is no "orthodoxy" on "the left".

Take your entirely imaginary persecution complex out of here.

Case in point; the guy who was fired for making a hand sign? That wasn't "the left" doing anything. That was his employer. No one else. Take it up with his employer.

He was literally branded a white supremacist to the world no shit he was fired. You said it yourself, people shouldnt tolerate their co-workers being nazis

But as a general point I agree, there should be stronger protections to ensure people arent getting fired over the sensibilities of the leftist mob or the evangelical mob

[downnola]

The problem with signing an open letter like this is that I may support free speech, open dialog, and dialectic but also share that same position with someone like Richard Spencer. Does that mean I support free speech for the same reasons he does? No, but I still don't want to be associated with him. That's the main reason I'd object to signing a letter like this. I also think that while open dialog is important, so is responsibility for said dialog. If you say some rotten shit, you will be told you're saying rotten shit. Deal with it, that's how free speech works.

I'm a little burned out on this whole "culture war" over "free speech" nonsense but I do have to say there are worse people to be lumped in with than Noam Chomsky, Bari Weiss, Martin Amis, and Jonathan Haidt. You have people like Tucker Carlson spreading white nationalist propaganda every night on cable news and people are still upset that Bari Weiss made a spur of the moment comment about immigrants "getting it done" on twitter and people are acting like she's the trojan horse for white supremacy. Can we get serious about the problem, please?

[Zinstorm]

He was literally branded a white supremacist to the world no shit he was fired. You said it yourself, people shouldnt tolerate their co-workers being nazis

But as a general point I agree, there should be stronger protections to ensure people arent getting fired over the sensibilities of the leftist mob or the evangelical mob

I think what happened to that guy was terrible but I'm gonna put the blame on the employer for that... not the "mob". They said they investigated the claim and then fired him... if they only fired him on the perceived backlash alone then he is better off finding a new job in the long run as they clearly messed up the investigation or cared more about their perceived image then the truth.... and in that case I'm sure that guy can find a better place to work. Even more so now that the truth has come out and he is handling this in a mature way... his future employer's will see that and be grateful for it.

[Endus]

He was literally branded a white supremacist to the world no shit he was fired.

Again, there was no "branding". Nor was "the world" in any way involved. Literally the only person responsible for the decision to fire him was his employer.

If you've got an issue with that, take it up with the employer. No one else was involved in any reasonable respect whatsoever.

The entire argument you're making is literally a conspiracy theory piled on top of a baseless persecution complex. Stop jumping at imaginary shadows.

[Elegiac]

Again, there was no "branding". Nor was "the world" in any way involved. Literally the only person responsible for the decision to fire him was his employer.

If you've got an issue with that, take it up with the employer. No one else was involved in any reasonable respect whatsoever.

The entire argument you're making is literally a conspiracy theory piled on top of a baseless persecution complex. Stop jumping at imaginary shadows.

We can already see how this letter was nonsense to begin with from how many of its signatories are acting shocked now that they know who else (I.e. JK Terfling) has signed it and what they might be implicitly endorsing as a result. It's abundantly clear this was just circulated amongst publicist circles without anyone actually taking the time to like, read into any of the context.

But hey performative activism is about the most white celebrity thing I can think of, honestly.

[nonameelf]

Yeah, the whole "You said something that didn't line up with the orthodoxy, you must be punished" thing is getting old and it's good to see people from all sides supporting an end to that bullshit.

Stop treating politics like a fucking religion.

[Elegiac]

Yeah, the whole "You said something that didn't line up with the orthodoxy, you must be punished" thing is getting old and it's good to see people from all sides supporting an end to that bullshit.

Stop treating politics like a fucking religion.

Glad to see there are still people who are apparently glossing over the letter without reading it or the context surrounding it.

I'm just so tired of TERFs and the people who enable them...

[nonameelf]

Glad to see there are still people who are apparently glossing over the letter without reading it or the context surrounding it.

I'm just so tired of TERFs and the people who enable them...

JK Rowling is right though. Nothing she said is wrong, that's why everyone in the cult is so massively butthurt at her.

[Felya]

Yeah, the whole "You said something that didn't line up with the orthodoxy, you must be punished" thing is getting old and it's good to see people from all sides supporting an end to that bullshit.

Stop treating politics like a fucking religion.

I’m glad that US is demanding politics not be treated as a religion, because that’s a hell of a jump from... ‘I don’t like what you say’ vs ‘I don’t like that you don’t like what I said’... It seems too soon for the religious adherent step...

- - - Updated - - -

JK Rowling is right though. Nothing she said is wrong, that's why everyone in the cult is so massively butthurt at her.

If she is right, why don’t you care? You will continue to buy her shit and they will continue to not buy her shit. What’s the problem? It’s not like she kneeled to the flag or said Black Lives Mater...

Oh and it wasn’t the cancel culture that ruled today that religious can circumvent healthcare regulations.

[Endus]

JK Rowling is right though. Nothing she said is wrong, that's why everyone in the cult is so massively butthurt at her.

Except what she's been saying, over and over, is dismissive of the identities of millions of people, denying them basic human equity and consideration. Based on nothing but a shitty failure to grasp fairly basic biology and her personal animus against transgender people and their rights.

The only "cult" here is the TERFs.

[nonameelf]

Except what she's been saying, over and over, is dismissive of the identities of millions of people, denying them basic human equity and consideration. Based on nothing but a shitty failure to grasp fairly basic biology and her personal animus against transgender people and their rights.

The only "cult" here is the TERFs.

She doesn't hate transgender people though.

She just thinks that sex is an important characteristic and one that should be defended in law and not be erased in favor of gender.

Stop confusing disagreement for hate.

[Shadowferal]

JK Rowling is right though. Nothing she said is wrong, that's why everyone in the cult is so massively butthurt at her.

Nah..they all butthurt because they bought her books, and saw the movies, and bought related merchandise, and she became a billionaire. Now they feel swindled and betrayed. Just a matter of time before they fantasize winning a lawsuit to pay for being so butthurt...

[Felya]

Glad to see there are still people who are apparently glossing over the letter without reading it or the context surrounding it.

I'm just so tired of TERFs and the people who enable them...

It’s a tough argument to hold, when it seems to eventually devolve into pretty much console wars. If it helps to deal with it, just pretend the discussion is of the Xbox. I have this feeling that we have a generation coming up, where the primary debate they are used to is console wars or barrens chat. If people believe in conditioning... it’s a reasonable belief...