The Great Classic Raid Lie

[Chaelexi]

Five days played is a lot of time. You can easily be in mythic raids in five days played, easily.

I was not power leveled at all, and left myself logged in for periods jumping around in org doing nothing. In 5 days played in live you will not be mythic raid ready currently. A new player just joining wow in live(no BOA's) will take a couple days played to level to 120 alone. Then he will have to do all of his story quests to unlock zones, get AP, essences, cloak level, etc. He will not be mythic raid raid ready for 4-6 weeks after he hits 120.

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Classic raids took a long time, because we didn't know what the fuck we were doing in 2005.

The going in as a blind idiot factor was real. Did not make it difficult, just took time to learn mechanics.

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The thing is, LFR has always had bosses that require at least some/many players to actually do the mechanics. Typically, at least one tank knows exactly what they are doing, if not both. A couple of healers and a bunch of DPS do as well, but certainly some characters can slack and get carried. That is still the case now. This can give the impression to the slackers that nothing in there is dangerous at all, or that it didn't matter that they died, when in fact if everyone played at such a poor level, it would be endless wipes.

Best part is this guy will ignore everything about the current time commitment to raid.

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And how long would the equivalent take in retail with friends powering you through? Maybe 10 hours.

And power leveling characters is actually slower then leveling a character with them at the same time in live. Until you hit 110 when you could be power leveled by a 111 DH with Legendaries. This is the only true power leveling available until in retail. As for once they hit 120, you definitely can assist people with gearing and running through 5 mask Visions but the time gate limitation on visions will hold the player back from mythic raiding, as I already have explained. But you have already proven you know nothing about live wow.

[arkanon]

I was not power leveled at all, and left myself logged in for periods jumping around in org doing nothing. In 5 days played in live you will not be mythic raid ready currently. A new player just joining wow in live(no BOA's) will take a couple days played to level to 120 alone. Then he will have to do all of his story quests to unlock zones, get AP, essences, cloak level, etc. He will not be mythic raid raid ready for 4-6 weeks after he hits 120.
.

Sounds about right, even then you won't be first pick, but if you join a guild or join the group with geared friends with achievements, that would help.

[Relapses]

I keep seeing people endlessly repeat the same lie over and over again about wow classic raids. They keep saying that others argued that classic raids would take months to clear because of mechanical difficulty.

Nobody ever made that argument. Sure, maybe one person did somewhere, but that was never the conversation. The contention was that classic raids would take a long time to clear because of how long it takes to level, gear, and access the content. That’s it. It never had anything to do with mechanical difficulty.

Obviously, they were still wrong. I think for three reasons:

1. It’s faster to level and gear than people assumed, although still way longer than retail.
2. They underestimated how much more powerful 1.12 characters are.
3. They underestimated the knowledge held by people playing on private servers.

Bottom line: this never had anything to do with mechanical complexity. It was always about time investment, low drop rates, etc.. Can we please put this lie to bed? Nobody thought wow classic raids were mechanically difficult. Get over it. Move on.

Thanks for unequivocally solving an issue that didn't exist my guy.

[RickJamesLich]

This has to be a troll right?

I don’t do LFR, but even just on normal I can list a mechanic (or several) that will kill you or wipe you on every single boss if you don’t follow it just this tier.

Wrathion - don’t move to safe spot in smoke phase = dead

Maut - don’t move into void for annihltion = dead

Prophet - kill wrong image = wipe

Xanesh - miss soak or mess up 2 soccer phases = wipe

Vex - miss breath dodges or soaks in p2 = dead

Hive mind - not any real instant kills, but don’t interrupt poison nova or dodge rolls bugs will kill you quick. Tanks not seperating bringing bosses together = wipe

Raden - void orb soak, debuff soak, and vita lightning all easily cascade into a wipe.

Shad’har - easy, but blood not kited kill people or tanks messing up crush/dissolve.

Drest’agath - this fight is just annoying and slow.

Ilgy - beam placement can cause wipes.

Carapace - getting MC, dodging tenticals, tanks not getting adds in p1 can all kill you.

Nzoth - Psychus pathing causes wipes. Paranoia, bashers not picked up, not soaking and MC in p3.

Someone didn't read my previous posts apparently lol. I mentioned I did LFR in MoP and WoD. Back then you didn't have to know anything about the fights and could get to victory. I don't see how this is a contention people can disagree with either, it was commonly established even back then. My point was i never had an encounter in classic under similar terms.

[Ratukt]

Show me one person saying it’s more mechanically complex.

Here you have:
www .mmo-champion.com/content/7262-Method-World-First-Mythic-Argus-Kill?page=7

Final raid in Legion - 2 weeks. Final raid in TBC - 2 months.

I'm pretty sure that's exactly what people are talking about when they say it's easy. Back then top guilds played pretty much the same way they do now. Those few years ago the pressure on getting World First was much bigger than it is now simply because game was more popular. Now every few posts here we have mentions of "no one giving a damn" anymore.

And people defending current difficulty level - stop joking, please. Most of my friends that quit in late WotLK or early/mid Cata didn't quit because they didn't had time to play anymore. They quit because PVE race was killed by difficulty levels. "Allow everyone to kill end boss" is the worst thing that ever happened in this game. Like it or not MMOs are about elitism. This is what makes the game interesting and pushes people forward. To get those shiny purples, same as this guy showing off near the bank in IF. Take that away and you kill the game because no one feels special for achieving something difficult or requiring shitton of time (Frostsaber in vanilla anyone?). Everyone is the same - boring.
And if you have raids that elite clears in 2 weeks and after 4 months another 1500 guilds do the same (last expansion) than EVERYONE has allt he best items. There is no strive to get better stuff, no need to play more, no need to be better because you already got handed the best items.
Yes, current epix are basically handed over to people comparing to Vanilla/TBC and even WotLK. People miss that feel of either being elite or aspiring to elite and eventualy getting there.

[Darththeo]

The only argument I heard is raids were "harder" in Vanilla, not that they had more mechanics (though some vanilla raids have weird mechanics).

They never explained why it was "harder" just they were "harder." I heard this back during Wrath saying "Wrath raids are easier than Vanilla raids." That's was it. If you asked why, you never got an answer.

[arkanon]

There was an amazing thread here which I can't find, that openly said "how many of you will pretend this never happened?" In regards to people openly claiming Maxx in particular would be on par or harder than current mythics.

It was closed pretty quick, but people genuinely believed bwl was on par with heroic, and Naxx would "break" mythic guilds when they realised how much harder than retail it was.

This was ALWAYS going to happen - the goalposts shifted so much we are not on the same field anymore, and not even playing the the same sport anymore.

And as I said, many people called this long ago - it went from "mc will kill guilds", to "no one EVER said mc was hard, but BWL will take weeks to clear", followed by "no one EVER said bwl would be hard, but Naxx will teach mythic raiders what REAL difficulty is" and eventually, it will shift to "no one EVER said vanilla was hard, but TBC will end mythic raiders"

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Someone didn't read my previous posts apparently lol. I mentioned I did LFR in MoP and WoD. Back then you didn't have to know anything about the fights and could get to victory. I don't see how this is a contention people can disagree with either, it was commonly established even back then. My point was i never had an encounter in classic under similar terms.

This is not true. You as an individual could blindly flop around in LFR and still get to the end, but that was only because others were doing the mechanics you ignored. I don't see how this is a contention people can disagree with either, it was commonly established even back then.

[RickJamesLich]

This is not true. You as an individual could blindly flop around in LFR and still get to the end, but that was only because others were doing the mechanics you ignored. I don't see how this is a contention people can disagree with either, it was commonly established even back then.

As I mentioned I could blindly flop into LFR and clear it, but on top of that flat out ignore mechanics and not die in the fights. I do not understand how you can disagree with this statement? If LFR has changed since the days of me playing, great, I think it makes for a better playing experience, but back when I was playing it was incredibly mindless, to the point where it made the game a lot less fun.

[Chaelexi]

As I mentioned I could blindly flop into LFR and clear it, but on top of that flat out ignore mechanics and not die in the fights. I do not understand how you can disagree with this statement? If LFR has changed since the days of me playing, great, I think it makes for a better playing experience, but back when I was playing it was incredibly mindless, to the point where it made the game a lot less fun.

Durumu proves you wrong. You could not blindly flop around and stay alive during that fight.

[RickJamesLich]

Durumu proves you wrong. You could not blindly flop around and stay alive during that fight.

That was *one* fight and most people skipped that wing. And it did end up getting nerfed a month after release.

[arkanon]

That was *one* fight and most people skipped that wing. And it did end up getting nerfed a month after release.

You should check behind you before backtracking anymore. Your argument initially was framed as "the entire group could ignore ALL mechanics and easily clear the raid" and now you are saying "I got carried through LFR and did no mechanics, therefore everyone could do the same".

The fact remains you were able to play this way because others were doing all the mechanics for you. You got carried. Through LFR.

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"People keep saying that OTHERS argued"? Jesus..what is this about?

Throw us a link if you see this "endlessly repeat". Really do, please....I want to read these threads

For myself I can't remember anyone arguing Classic (Vanilla) raids were "mechanically" hard. Not if you fought Rag in MC and Rag in FL or Onyxia and Nef in Vanilla and then in Cata.

I and my guild still struggled in MC and BWL and ofc ppl stuggled like HELL in Vanilla Naxx. They just don't struggle anymore today

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Here is my answer. Me and my guild were just n00bs. First MMO ever. There were hardly guides or addons. We had no clue about class stacking etc etc. Today, after ppl doing MC for 15 years and on private servers...there is just no way to objectively compare "back then and now" (but I swear that WotLK WAS harder...just look at fights like LK 25 man HM, Yogg, Mimiron HM, Faction champions. The only thing easier in WotLK than Vanilla was Naxx IMHO)

Many people argued that although they did not have many mechanics, each mechanic was substantially more difficult than anything on offer in retail. This is obviously a complete fallacy as well, as even LFR has mechanics as punishing or more punishing than vanilla.

Then there were the numerous breakdowns trying to "prove" that Naxx was more dangerous than wrath, and not just naxx2.0, but everything in wrath.

As I said, people called this -- it was always going to happen - and when Naxx is absolutely steamrolled by casuals, the argument will shift to "no one EVER said vanilla was hard, but TBC will destroy guilds."

[arkanon]

We do pretty much only get the news how the bleeding edge destroy every raid. I am interested how "normals" do in Classic...and soon TBC. Even if they don't kill guilds...just like..."Oh, we needed 3 lockouts to clear BWL" - or "we didn't one-shot MC in 1 hr"


...and ofc how "normals" do in AQ and Naxx...if "normals" actually exist. Sometimes it feels like Classic is only populated by ppl who have been around on private servers for years and just know every trick in the book. Ofc you could argue that is the new "normal"

There are countless examples of players who never played vanilla, never played PS, and don't do anything beyond MAYBE dabbling in normal on retail clearing all content so far without any issues at all. Problem is much of the classic community just flat out refuses to accept this is a reality for many people.

Bwl wasn't cleared only by a few "bleeding edge" guilds - it was like 2500 guilds within 12 hours of launch - and those are just the ones who logged.

[Pohut]

We do pretty much only get the news how the bleeding edge destroy every raid. I am interested how "normals" do in Classic...and soon TBC. Even if they don't kill guilds...just like..."Oh, we needed 3 lockouts to clear BWL" - or "we didn't one-shot MC in 1 hr"


...and ofc how "normals" do in AQ and Naxx...if "normals" actually exist. Sometimes it feels like Classic is only populated by ppl who have been around on private servers for years and just know every trick in the book. Ofc you could argue that is the new "normal"

Why are we doing this again?
AQ will be cleared in under an hour the first night. Both of them.
Naxx will be cleared in under 2 hours, only because it is just bigger overall. By the third lockout raids will be split running the wings (2x20), and in about a month will be split running all 4 wings (4x10).
10 manning Naxx will be about as hard as going into 10-man Naxx freshin WotLK.

[RickJamesLich]

You should check behind you before backtracking anymore. Your argument initially was framed as "the entire group could ignore ALL mechanics and easily clear the raid" and now you are saying "I got carried through LFR and did no mechanics, therefore everyone could do the same".

The fact remains you were able to play this way because others were doing all the mechanics for you. You got carried. Through LFR.

The majority of boss fights fights allowed a player could ignore mechanics entirely, and in all of these cases you could come out of it being rewarded with loot. A horrible system that has hopefully been replaced. I remember in particular the heart of fear, getting creative with trying to find a way to make my character die with no avail lol. Essentially a lot of the stuff was fail proof and boring because of that. You may not like classic but it didn't really contain that type of stuff, that was my point.

[arkanon]

The majority of boss fights fights allowed a player could ignore mechanics entirely, and in all of these cases you could come out of it being rewarded with loot. A horrible system that has hopefully been replaced. I remember in particular the heart of fear, getting creative with trying to find a way to make my character die with no avail lol. Essentially a lot of the stuff was fail proof and boring because of that. You may not like classic but it didn't really contain that type of stuff, that was my point.

Look at that - you managed to water it down even further! And still fail to realise that you stayed alive and cleared the encounter because others did everything for you and you completely got carried. You realise this happens in vanilla and classic yes?

Do we really need to go back to when the claim was made that the entire raid could if it's all mechanics and still clear all LFR bosses?

Now it's watered down and backtracked all the way to "I clowned around in LFR and everyone carried me and I got loot lol LFR must be easy"

[xGLxAnubis]

Yet I've had more than my fair share of people in multiple guilds make the claim that Classic raids are more difficult than Retail raids, so your claim that nobody ever made that argument is a lie and decredits your post.

The only argument I've seen close to this is that *VANILLA* raids *WERE* more difficult than Retail raids are now.

Two key points:
Vanilla, not Classic.
Were, not are.

This is because the time period. Vanilla *was* harder. We had less tools, less knowledge, less sharing.

It's just like how farming *was* hard. Hunting *was* hard. Surviving *was* hard. Over time, we've gotten more tools, more knowledge, more sharing: Now those things are no longer hard. For the people of the 1200's though, they were definitely hard.

[deenman]

I keep seeing people endlessly repeat the same lie over and over again about wow classic raids. They keep saying that others argued that classic raids would take months to clear because of mechanical difficulty.

Nobody ever made that argument. Sure, maybe one person did somewhere, but that was never the conversation. The contention was that classic raids would take a long time to clear because of how long it takes to level, gear, and access the content. That’s it. It never had anything to do with mechanical difficulty.

Obviously, they were still wrong. I think for three reasons:

1. It’s faster to level and gear than people assumed, although still way longer than retail.
2. They underestimated how much more powerful 1.12 characters are.
3. They underestimated the knowledge held by people playing on private servers.

Bottom line: this never had anything to do with mechanical complexity. It was always about time investment, low drop rates, etc.. Can we please put this lie to bed? Nobody thought wow classic raids were mechanically difficult. Get over it. Move on.

classic is a snoozefest easier than lfr capital city world buff simulator...we get it,get over it,atleast tbc will be sligthy better

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The only argument I've seen close to this is that *VANILLA* raids *WERE* more difficult than Retail raids are now.

Two key points:
Vanilla, not Classic.
Were, not are.

This is because the time period. Vanilla *was* harder. We had less tools, less knowledge, less sharing.

It's just like how farming *was* hard. Hunting *was* hard. Surviving *was* hard. Over time, we've gotten more tools, more knowledge, more sharing: Now those things are no longer hard. For the people of the 1200's though, they were definitely hard.

yeah,im sure people really needed all those tools and knowlege and thausands of youtube guides in vanila to grasp the concept of moving out of the group with a debuff

[arkanon]

The only argument I've seen close to this is that *VANILLA* raids *WERE* more difficult than Retail raids are now.

Two key points:
Vanilla, not Classic.
Were, not are.

This is because the time period. Vanilla *was* harder. We had less tools, less knowledge, less sharing.

It's just like how farming *was* hard. Hunting *was* hard. Surviving *was* hard. Over time, we've gotten more tools, more knowledge, more sharing: Now those things are no longer hard. For the people of the 1200's though, they were definitely hard.

What an absolute load of garbage. If vanilla raids had even 50% of the complexity of a retail mythic encounter, this would be somewhat true. But you don't need guides and YouTube videos to tell you "fire is hot, don't stand in it".

[deenman]

It's funny I stopped playing in WoD but did LFR actually become challenging? I remember being able to tank stuff as a clothy and live, completely disobey raid mechanics, even afk on the fights and still come out victorious.

most bosses are easy but there are some that blizzard for some crazy reason felt they should keep mecanics that if failed at will cause a 100% wipe,some bosses have been notorious for this,preach even made a video about how he spent an entire day trying to kill nzoth on lfr,and i remember archimonde getting a crazy ammount of nerfs in lfr,its actualy amusing,to the point where many mythic bosses felt easier to me than killing some lfr bosses,not cuz lfr is hard,but when the people have no clue what to do plus blizzard thinking these mecanics are ok for lfr..thats what happens

[Headayke]

I cant help but laugh every time a guildie is worried about next phases content because of their horrible vanilla experience and spending hours fighting this one boss.

Go watch the fully raid buffed, BWL geared group kill 5 Priest Hakkar before any of the mechanics start. Even doubling Hakkars HP to match the harder bosses in AQ would provide no challenge to any competent guild.