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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    M+ has an affix rotation, and seasonal ones as well that significantly change how those dungeons are handled.
    "Significantly" is an overstatement.
    Like, you change a few pulls, but it's still the same dungeon, you still play the bosses the same way, you still deal with the same trash mechanics.

    Affixes do not reinvent dungeons.
    Heck, even the loot simply gets slapped on a higher Ilvl.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    People get tired of raids, but even those who don't like M+ that much rarely say they it is because they can't stand the entire dungeon roster anymore.
    I do for example, i think i'm pretty done with killing pirates in Freehold - yet somehow the game basically tells me to every new patch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Now, in the spirit of good discussion, I do concede that perhaps Blizzard could endeavor to make the tier prior to current (IE Eternal Palace as of now) give good rewards to encourage at least two raids being run with some regularity.
    I generally believe this is already fair comprise.

    I don't think it's good that your if a BiS item for the remainder of the expansion drops within the very first tier, but also it takes away a lot of value from your efforts if you throw your entire gear away within weeks after a new patch.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Mouri Kogorou View Post
    except you can collect those gears and have multiple items ready to swap (trinkets and weapons etc..)
    the fun there was in the challenge of killing bosses.

    now the challenge is getting the correct covenant, and then the correct soulbind and then relics.

    you can't swap that in raid.
    why should players have access to everything? and its not even that, why should you be able to swap everything at will? were you able to repec your vanilla talent tree on the fly? jesus. players are more interested in being able to change everything at the drop of a hat instead of actually not being horrible at the game. good luck you you all finding the perfect game for you.

    that doesnt exist.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Why am I not surprised that this thread was made on a new account that after three pages still stands at ONE pristine post?
    Someone is to scared to post it on their main account because they know it doesn't make sense.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    "Significantly" is an overstatement.
    Like, you change a few pulls, but it's still the same dungeon, you still play the bosses the same way, you still deal with the same trash mechanics.

    Affixes do not reinvent dungeons.
    Heck, even the loot simply gets slapped on a higher Ilvl.

    I do for example, i think i'm pretty done with killing pirates in Freehold - yet somehow the game basically tells me to every new patch.

    I generally believe this is already fair comprise.

    I don't think it's good that your if a BiS item for the remainder of the expansion drops within the very first tier, but also it takes away a lot of value from your efforts if you throw your entire gear away within weeks after a new patch.
    I dunno, I definitely felt the change from Infested (yuck) to Reaping (yay!) and Awakened is a really significant affix that completely changes the way some dungeons, such as Atal'dazar and Underrot, are approached. It's not the same as moving from one raid tier to the next, but unless one expects Blizzard to conjure up 8 to 10 new dungeons per major patch, it's the next best thing and works well enough in my books.

    Besides, while making Eternal Palace worth running could be good, the playerbase already whinged a whole lot about having to do 8.2 content to level Essences, and early 8.3 content for the cloak. I strongly doubt that having to play patch by patch would be at all popular, especially now that alts are a far bigger part of the game than in vanilla/TBC.

    Using what we know of Shadowlands, maybe make the last raid tier award extra Renown or have a higher chance of dropping its Conduits, or maybe give it bosses a chance to drop materials for high-level profession/Legendary crafting or whatnot, something along those lines. Going farther is unnecessary and will piss off far more people than it pleases; players who really want their epics gotten in Molten Core to last until AQ/Naxx can play Classic now, and Classic TBC sometime in 2021/2022. Let retail be retail, it's the game I want to play.

  5. #45
    You can have 50 systems if u want to and it wont be a problem, as long as you can freely change everything in all of them. Instead, you get to pick 1 out of 4 options severely limiting gameplay from story to performance-wise. Not sure why its ok to have access to only 1 of the covenants with your main and forcing ppl to make alts to see/use other covenants.

    So we have moved on from blizzard trying to stop raiders from having alts to now forcing raiders to have alts and try to choke them with minigames and flavor content.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    completely changes the way some dungeons, such as Atal'dazar and Underrot, are approached.
    Again, that's an overstatement, at best you play a pack that previously skipped.

    If that really counts for you as "complete change of approach", then fine, but not to me, because the overall mechanics are still the same within that dungeon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Besides, while making Eternal Palace worth running could be good, the playerbase already whinged a whole lot about having to do 8.2 content to level Essences
    Most of the issues related to Essences could've been solved if Blizzard hadn't dragged their feet on making them accountwide.
    But yeah, delaying obvious QoL changes for 6-10 months seems to be the Modus Operandi at Blizzard nowadays.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Using what we know of Shadowlands, maybe make the last raid tier award extra Renown or have a higher chance of dropping its Conduits, or maybe give it bosses a chance to drop materials for high-level profession/Legendary crafting or whatnot, something along those lines.
    I'm not going to judge systems within SL in that regard until i played them and seen them ingame.

    BfA has been a harsh mentor on that front.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Let retail be retail, it's the game I want to play.
    I'd buy that if Blizzard hadn't such a hardon on "trying to put the RPG back into WoW".

    Because i think the seasonal approach hurts WoW as an RPG, that may work for ARPG such as Diablo or PoE, but less so for an Open World MMORPG in my opinion, where a certain activity suddenly becomes so much more rewarding overnight (or devalued) for no real reason.

    And it's utterly silly how Blizzard feels the urge to place Dungeons on a pedestal which keep them relevant throughout the entire expansion, yet raids (and zones such as Nazjatar) get tossed aside every 6 months.
    That's just a waste and makes the game feel artificially smaller than it actually is.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2020-07-08 at 11:02 PM.

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post

    The game has always been about temporary incremental power gains that we eventually discard and replace. Literally always. Even the legendary items that we spend an entire raid tier/expansion grinding out. Wrathion's cloak. The rings from WoD. Hundreds of Legion legendaries. The artifacts. All of it.
    Boom. This. Right here. Nothing is worth SO MUCH ANGST because it's all going to reset in 6 months! That right there is the core of the "good enough is good enough" mantra that's gotten me through Legion and BFA with a relative smile on my face (more smiles for legion because better stories) because going deep is just flawed if you have any desire to play any alts, and I have over 30. Good enough has been and continues to be good enough, I can't even wrap my mind around the fact that people pug M+ and like obsess over the overlap of how this person they don't even know meshes with how they themselves play!

    The game is so accessible, so easy to just do "good enough" if you ignore the heavily misinterpreted opportunities to play every bit of team content with a mere group. Just... just play your character. Experience the content. There'll be an access lane. Stop when it gets intensely unfun or interdependent beyond circles of actual friends.. Is it so hard to just chill and play?

    I guess I just don't have a competitive bone in my body and I'm good at managing my time. I don't know how anyone goes so deep into complex systems intended for team players when all they can form is a group.

  8. #48
    you mean you weren't worried when they first showed it at blizzcon?

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Again, that's an overstatement, at best you play a pack that previously skipped.

    If that really counts for you as "complete change of approach", then fine, but not to me, because the overall mechanics are still the same within that dungeon.

    Most of the issues related to Essences could've been solved if Blizzard hadn't dragged their feet on making them accountwide.
    But yeah, delaying obvious QoL changes for 6-10 months seems to be the Modus Operandi at Blizzard nowadays.

    I'm not going to judge systems within SL in that regard until i played them and seen them ingame.

    BfA has been a harsh mentor on that front.

    I'd buy that if Blizzard hadn't such a hardon on "trying to put the RPG back into WoW".

    Because i think the seasonal approach hurts WoW as an RPG, that may work for ARPG such as Diablo or PoE, but less so for an Open World MMORPG in my opinion, where a certain activity suddenly becomes so much more rewarding overnight (or devalued) for no real reason.

    And it's utterly silly how Blizzard feels the urge to place Dungeons on a pedestal which keep them relevant throughout the entire expansion, yet raids (and zones such as Nazjatar) get tossed aside every 6 months.
    That's just a waste and makes the game feel artificially than it actually is.
    WoW has always been such a totally shit RPG compared to actual ones like Dragon Age or Baldur's Gate, or a tabletop session, that I never mourned for the death of those elements. Perhaps that's where we fundamentally differ, I dunno. Blizzard gives lip service to giving RPG back because muh Classic and muh RPG in MMORPG feelings, but ultimately WoW has been as artificial and unimmersive as games get from the moment a wolf respawned in plain sight of me while dozens of fellow murderhobos, err, adventurers were genociding them for 10 copper and a new pair of pants back when I first played in 2005. It's the same with putting the WAR back in WARcraft nonsense that drove BFA; as the subsequent storyline showed, Blizzard really doesn't give one iota of a fuck about that and paid lip service for marketing purposes.

    Dungeons are special because they're front-loaded, being all available the moment the xpack starts except for 2-3 of them due to being part of the leveling experience as well. Raids aren't, and that has been the tradition dating back to vanilla and won't ever change since raids form a core part of the post max level story.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Razion View Post
    I was under the impression Soulbinds are more of an open world thing. Has it been stated it will do anything else?
    Soulbinds apply everywhere, they're one of the primary features of the expansion.

  11. #51
    you know when the game was best?
    during wrath/tbc do you know how many systems it had? none add mythic plus onto wrath with world quests. give people vendors and a badge system add torghast which I think is a great idea for farming mounts item transmogs maybe legendaries don't know how I feel about the whole legendary shit again to be honest.
    you have rep grinds once there done you are done. then its chasing progress pvp ranks what ever is your poison. simplicity is all the game requires. I like the idea of a covenant. too but they could literally just add a rep grind onto it and you choose your favourite faction to champion throughout the expansion none of this ability crap. just enables you to unlock faction themed gear for mogging new spell animations mounts etc all faction oriented.
    power gain should be earned through m+ pvp and raiding.
    keep the faction end game story line have max level zones and all that but honestly simplicity is key. each tier you go up unlocks more faction based stuff new spell animations fancier mounts. and then that way if you are not interested in any of the asthetic stuff you can turn up to raid run dungeons or what ever you choose to do.
    badge vendors to buy items for tier sets too would be good solid catch up mechanic for any alt or main. you have a target you get to the target you buy what you want. or even taking it further mythic plus awards badges that are only earned inside m+ weapons have a fixed cost trinkets etc etc and then at the end of the week instead of going to a random chest you go to a vendor who gives you 1 random piece according to your weekly best. but if you farmed enough currency you can buy what ever piece of gear from that vendor you choose. probably be a weekly cap on that to avoid burnout. same system for pvp.
    blizzard are trying to reinvent the wheel MMORPGS don't require tons and tons of intricate systems all layerd into each other. its literally just a case of saying this is starting point over there is your end goal. you can choose to go to the end in a straight line or you can take your time and go the more scenic route. either way works you will be rewarded with more power completing harder content/higher pvp ranks. complete the tier take a break or enjoy our other features or don't its up to you. but if they do decide to do the other features reward people aesthetically doesn't need to be power related. save them selves tons of balancing issues by doing it this way imo

  12. #52
    It's not layers on top of layers... it's layers under layers. See, toooootally different!

    I feel more overwhelmed after today's stream than before.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Blizzard gives lip service to giving RPG back because muh Classic and muh RPG in MMORPG feelings
    They seem pretty fixated on the covenant system, so there you go.

    They probably cave in as they usually do, but that's most likely going to happen 6+ months into SL.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Dungeons are special because they're front-loaded
    And now they are basically everything, because they are relevant at every single point and allow you to even bypass raid progression unless you're raiding Mythic.

    If you think WoW is more sucessful without the RPG part, that's your opinion, i personally doubt it, but if that's their goal then they should also drop the pretense and remove a lot more systems as then they serve no real purpose (such as professions).
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    but ultimately WoW has been as artificial and unimmersive as games get from the moment a wolf respawned in plain sight of me while dozens of fellow murderhobos, err, adventurers were genociding them for 10 copper and a new pair of pants back when I first played in 2005.
    And at a certain point some concessions need to be made for the sake of gameplay, like seriously.
    This is a hollow criticism and you know it.

    What's the alternative, a new character shows up and the questgiver goes "yeah, everything's fine here"?

  14. #54
    Systemlands indeed.

    We couldn't have stopped at ability, wich was bad enough. No, we need new talent trees bolted on top, garrison style upgrades on top of that and multiple relics, cause that worked so well in Legion.

    Why? I just dont get why they do this. All you have to do to have a sucessful expansion is to not bolt extra systems on top. Just gear, just set bonuses like we used to have and instead of rental power, class progression.

    SL is launching with 3 (!) rental power systems and another one to unlock further acess and AP turned into a cosmetics grind. I can only imagine the horror show it will be by the end as they add more systems with patches.
    In the end, they learned almost nothing from BfA. Impressive!

    Also, no, this expansion will not be alt friendly. Prepare to do the grind 4 times over and if you chose the wrong covenant or it gets nerfed...nice meeting you! Back to square one!
    Enough to scare anyone, this stream was.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2020-07-09 at 12:34 AM.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Factsbeforefeelings View Post
    I tried to watch the stream but listening for 10 minutes of him explaining a whole bunch of garbage, convoluted temporary power systems made me cringe. There is zero chance I ever, EVER give Shadowlands a try.

    Logging in every single day to grind 10 different boring systems to gain small incremental power boosts over a 6 month tier before the next system or tier in current systems is released and I have to start it all over again.

    How the fuck did we get to this point?
    Curious, how did you feel about having to get new Emblems every patch in Wrath? Having to do PVP (wg) just to PVE? What about raiding current tiers that only give you a power boost for a couple months until the next patch? What a silly complaint lol. There's been temporary systems in every expansion. The initial complaint about SL was that it looked light on content and features. Now people are complaining that it has too many lol

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    They seem pretty fixated on the covenant system, so there you go.

    They probably cave in as they usually do, but that's most likely going to happen 6+ months into SL.

    And now they are basically everything, because they are relevant at every single point and allow you to even bypass raid progression unless you're raiding Mythic.

    If you think WoW is more sucessful without the RPG part, that's your opinion, i personally doubt it, then they should also drop the pretense and remove a lot more systems as then they serve no real purpose (such as professions).

    And at a certain point some concessions need to be made for the sake of gameplay, like seriously.
    This is a hollow criticism and you know it.

    What's the alternative, a new character shows up and the questgiver goes "yeah, everything's fine here"?
    Nothing needs to be done about it, because it's an MMORPG and gameplay is more important than story and immersion here. To be clear, I'm fine with that happening within the context of WoW the game, but in my eyes it makes it a much poorer RPG than single player games where your actions and choices can actually affect the world. When I gun down an NCR soldier camp in Fallout New Vegas, they don't respawn and I get a massive negative reputation malus towards the faction because I did it, the action matters within the context of the world. I can also loot superior equipment from them as they're soldiers of a semi-professional army, not ragtag raiders. There isn't a line of people farming the poor dudes for five bottlecaps and a half broken machete from the nearby Legion questgiver which would be the case were the game an MMO.

    The RPG part in an MMO mostly exists in terms of crunch and mechanics, not story or immersion. Harder bosses = better rewards, doesn't matter how much sense it makes that as of now killing a demon lord or a nascent Titan yields shit gear but killing pirates on the ass end of nowhere can give BiS because the pirates are numerically harder. Meaningful choices, however, in a multiplayer game? I don't buy it, simple as that, which is why I'd rather we could easily change Covenants, or make the choice about cosmetics while not affecting gameplay, or hell allow us to choose two Covenants, one joined in full and one that just gives us the abilities/soulbinds, so we don't have to make an unnecessary compromise in a game that is inevitably min-maxed to death even in content that absolutely does not need it, such as Normal raids or Molten Core in Classic. As you said, they'll probably implement something like that months into Shadowlands sadly.

    Anyway, this has been a pretty huge tangent and I'm not sure how relevant it all actually is. My core point is that I don't play a game where I can repeat the exact same quests over and over and kill the same bosses over and over for the RPG elements, I play it for the +1 power boost treadmill, and I'm fairly certain Blizzard knows most players are like me, even those playing Classic right now. They keep feeding us for a reason.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Halfaheart View Post
    Curious, how did you feel about having to get new Emblems every patch in Wrath? Having to do PVP (wg) just to PVE? What about raiding current tiers that only give you a power boost for a couple months until the next patch? What a silly complaint lol. There's been temporary systems in every expansion. The initial complaint about SL was that it looked light on content and features. Now people are complaining that it has too many lol
    Rental power systems aren't new features. A new class, a new zone, a new spec, a new race, a new way to explore the game, a new content type... those are features.
    Calling rental power systems features is like saying the AP grind is a feature. Sorry, but rental power systems aren't new features in any way nor am i sure they ever were a selling point.

    It went completely over your head what people were asking for.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2020-07-09 at 12:45 AM.

  18. #58
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    as long we don't have essences and azerite gear i think i can live.

    fucking hate the randomness of azerite gear, and how you had to stick with shit ones because some piece didn't drop, and how you need a perfect setup, that was way to hard to get to be decent.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Factsbeforefeelings View Post
    I tried to watch the stream but listening for 10 minutes of him explaining a whole bunch of garbage, convoluted temporary power systems made me cringe. There is zero chance I ever, EVER give Shadowlands a try.

    Logging in every single day to grind 10 different boring systems to gain small incremental power boosts over a 6 month tier before the next system or tier in current systems is released and I have to start it all over again.

    How the fuck did we get to this point?
    got to agree with you dude,its sounding like same old crap,i thought blizz had listened this time but its not looking good.

  20. #60
    The vibe they give off is "Heres more zones and dungeons. It's literally all stuff you've done before, but we changed the shape and color of the experience a little so it looks a little different. Happy? Continue giving us money, since we did our job."
    Last edited by Mojo03; 2020-07-09 at 01:17 AM.

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