Raiding has been meaningless since Cataclysm.
Raiding has been meaningless since Cataclysm.
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Also, risk/effort versus reward is out of whack, you can spamm mythic+ for hours a day with a pug, and end up with a set of gear thats on par with whatever mythic raiders roll with, titanforging and corruptions ensure that nobody has to step foot in a raid.
But if you choose to raid, you have to deal with organizing raids or joining a raid guild, unflexible raiding hours usually 2-3 days a week for x hours.
You have to deal with progression before you reach the bosses that drop the loot you could use, but by the time you reach the boss, you've gotten better from your weekly m+ cache.
There needs to be something other than challenge, as a reward for raiders. And i'm pretty excited to see where shadowlands goes with ilvl and set bonus's following the death of titanforging. Because i do want m+ to be relevant, just not a complete substition for raiding. Ideally you should get 70% of your bis from raiding, 15% from m+ and maybe 15% from pvp.
Give people some chase items to aim and work for, that doesnt include a slotmachine with 0 difficulty that offers titanforging.
1, as a raider, more options for those that want other activities and those that want endgame progression without raiding the better.
2, If you really look at the numbers WotLK barely grew WoW. Wrath added about 1M total players from the 11M at the of TBC.
3, These days with the extra competition for players time, and the option to raid easier options present, I can see it being a bigger issue today that is was 12 years ago.
4, Fragile, insecure people who base their life's value by what they accomplish in video games. When they see others do something similar but easier they easily feel invalidated. Instead of doing the rational and mature thing of ignoring them we see them post here daily.
5, Here, here. Been there done that. It's an awful mentality to have and an awful group to be a part of. Glad I found a group of like minded people that just want to have fun and not worry about the progression and loots. Yes we all better gear, but having fun a couple nights a week is more important to us.
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Everything is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. You make of it what you will. Raiding has been more meaningful since Cata since I got away from the progression race BS attitudes and mini dictators acting as raid/guild leaders.
That's definitely not how it works. See here, most specifically:
When the Dungeon is complete, you will receive a chest containing loot at the end of the dungeon and the Mythic Keystone will be updated:
- Beating the timer rewards the party with a new, higher-level Keystone of a different dungeon, and a Challenger's Cache that contains Artifact Power and 3 pieces of loot at an appropriate ilvl.
- If you miss the timer but complete the dungeon, you will still get the Challenger's Cache upon killing the final boss of the dungeon containing Artifact Power and 2 pieces of loot. The Mythic Keystone will point to a different dungeon that is one level lower than the one you just used.
- If you do not complete the dungeon, you will have a Keystone that is one level lower for the same dungeon and receive no loot.
- For every Keystone level above level 15 (Patch 8.3), there is an additive 40% chance for an additional piece of loot in the chest.
I'm literally the worst wow player of all time, that's exactly what I do, I just run one single 15 a week, log out - POOF next week BIS 475 WITH Corruption DANG DOE RIPINPEACE BLIZZ ;D (no really tho that's all I wear is some 475's from my mythic weekly cache... you think I have friends that can carry my weakass through mythicc raids?! I just afk through my 15's every week and reap the rewards)
Every thread is like entering an LFR with 5 stacks of determination. -Compstance
Raiding is meaningless. It is in dungeons we are truly tested.
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the problem with early cata dungeons wasnt that they were to hard,it was that they upped the difficulty HUGELY by comparison to wrath,also they added 1 shot mecanics to bosses and guaranteed wipes if failing to deal with some mecanics,a better way to handle it would have been to have heroic not queable,have it be like mythic now
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dont think anyone really contests this,simply on the fact that it scales it means its harder than a raid,also being only 5 people where if your healer makes a mistake,there is no1 else to pick up the slack,same with dps,on high keys a dead dps is a failed key,on raids even mythic often times even with a few dead dps you can still kill a boss if its not some uber dps check one
i wish they would bring back some form of hard mode for raids also,it would still not compare with dungeons almost infinite scaling but atleast it would offer somewhat of an extra challenge once the raid starts getting to easy
Normal and Heroic ought to be combined... afterall, there's no "LFR" difficulty for dungeons, LFG does Normal and Heroic.
I agree, but I also want to see raid rewards improve or M+ rewards throttled.
M+ loot increases by increments of 5. It’s a much smoother progression curve, for someone starting out at M0 and working their way up.
Raids however, jump by +15 ilvls. Whilst the difficulty from Normal to Heroic is minimal, Heroic to Mythic is massive. As such, players hit a wall and turn to M+ for their upgrades after getting AOTC.
In PVP, there is a single weekly chest earned via Conquest, yet for PVE, the weekly chest is only from M+. If the weekly chest were changed to reward your highest content of the week +10 ilvls (right now it’s M+ +10 ilvls), it would five raids a bit more longevity and purpose.
This has nothing to do with gear for challenge, because raiding was for the most part of WoW the easiest possible way to gear a character.
Blizzard decided that it is no longer needed to nerf a raid tier while its relevant (or at all) since LEGION and that makes basicly every other gearing path an alternative, if you are just a casual raider and not really successfull with progression raiding.
In the past you could just farm the entry bosses, wait for raid wide OVERNERFS and easy gear the full group, alts and guild socials with a casual raiding guild. That was changed because the "raiders" demanded more prestige. They got now more "prestige" but how that is really worth is seen on this m+/pvp envy discussions.
The truth is that the majority of the active players will ALLWAYS choose the least amount of resistance for gearprogression. Raiding is simply not that anymore and for the why - just ask the never happy raid community from WoD why they wanted prestige raiding in the first place. Complaing after they got what they wanted is a bit silly.
I raided since vanilla, every tier, it was stupid easy to keep up with high end gearing for many years. Tried LEGION with progression raiding and mythic+ and it made not much sense and the only string that keept me at least to participating in raiding was the tier sets. Thats dead in BfA and thats the reason why the raid community imploded. Casual raiding is not worth it when you can just get more out of mythic+ with the same amount of difficulty and time investment. With raider.io and its community acceptance building PUGs with a high success rate is the easiest thing in the world.
Last edited by Ange; 2020-07-13 at 10:38 AM.
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I agree. I don't like doing (essentially) the same content four times over. I care about the looks and feel of the dungeon tho, it does get much harder mechanically in heroic and mythic (no duh).
good news. in shadowlands loot will end up being more rare. only 1 weekly box for everyone. reduced loot in raids and m+. just lego mats from torghast (and cosmetics) you can grind pvp for currency to buy gear i guess. thats pretty much it except world quests and crafted gear.
have fun.
You don't raid for the gear, you gear for the raid. Raiding is it's own reward.
Problem is if you remove multiple forms of progression via raid, it becomes harder to justify dumping resources and dev time into designing raids given how niche Mythic raiding is. Only a small percentage of the playerbase clears Mythic raid and if you remove a lot of the avenues of progression in raiding you basically cut out and alienate sizable portion of the playerbase which means they'll be designing content for a small minority which to the shareholders is money not effectively spent.
At the end of the day they're a business and if they alienate a large portion of playerbase that no longer see's much reason to play due to time constraints and just general lack of interest in harder content, that translates to less player engagement which reflects badly on the company which leaves investors and shareholders starting to ask questions.
The game is not designed to cater to the minority that wants and participates in that bleeding edge progression and it won't anytime soon because it's not a good return on investment. The buck stops at the majority population, which isn't your typical Mythic raider.
I only play to see the content in raiding terms, when I do LFR kill the last boss in a raid I loose all interest in spending my time to commit to raiding it..
In TBC all I wanted to do was kill Illidan so I commited the time to do it, LFR kills the game for me completely I just loose interest and yes I could just not do it but then what guild would recruit you if you dont even get the easy gear from LFR.
YES it makes things easier for progression etc but then when I buy a single player game I always put it on hard so I see all the content in a challening way if you just want to breeze through all the video games in your life see all the content without challenge why not just watch youtube runs I just cant understand the need to have like 4 difficulties have a normal which is challenging and potentially puggable and very puggable towards the end of the patch who just want to experience the bosses and then a hard mode which truely challenges what more do you need.