Seriously, f**k Hunters Mark

[Eapoe]

And that would be irrelevant because you can only have 1 up anyway. This is no different than an enhancement having to set up Frostbrand and flametongue just to start dps'ing. Infact in Shadowlands they'll do exactly that as hunters, it's called Windfury totem

What’s irrelevant? The fact you only have 1, on a fight that requires constant reapplication to different targets is the entire relevancy of some people being upset. It’s a crap ability. It’s also one that allows a Hunter to do their full damage, based on ability kit, to one target.
In a way, it’s almost a nerf. For an example, outside of Shadowlands you might do 1,000 damage. SL drops and say you still do 1,000 damage ST, but to compensate for the ability being added back Blizzard reduces it by 5%. So w/o using the ability you actually do 950 damage. To get back to 1,000 you need to apply it, otherwise you nerf yourself. Considering if you nerf yourself w/o using it, that means in any situation involving cleave/AoE you only get to do your full damage to 1 target while doing 5% less to every other target.
You can’t try and argue this as HM isn’t a potion or flask, or even a single target damage proc on a weapon or trinket. The issue is that HM is a Hunter’s base toolkit, which means it’s full damage requires that ability, so you only get to do your full base kit damage to 1 target.
Shamans also effect everyone’s damage, or just themselves. It also needs reapplied once every 2 minutes instead of every target swap (which can be quite frequent on cleave/priority target fights). It’s not like it’s a huge difference, but it is still different.

[The Butt Witch]

Guys, if you want to play something with a shitload of keys and gimmicks, there are plenty of options for you: feral druid, ww monk, demo warlock, unholy dk, survival hunter. You should do us a favor and reroll to one of these specs and let the rest of us enjoy a straightforward, gimmick-less rotation, that isn't considered training for a career in playing the piano.

[Skorpionss]

Guys, if you want to play something with a shitload of keys and gimmicks, there are plenty of options for you: feral druid, ww monk, demo warlock, unholy dk, survival hunter. You should do us a favor and reroll to one of these specs and let the rest of us enjoy a straightforward, gimmick-less rotation, that isn't considered training for a career in playing the piano.

I want to play Hunter, a class that hasn't been fun to play since WOTLK, for me obviously.

[The Butt Witch]

I want to play Hunter, a class that hasn't been fun to play since WOTLK, for me obviously.

Hunters, as well as all classes, had a lot less keys and gimmicks in previous expansions. But once Blizzard started bringing in new abilities, new active talents, new active pvp abilities, and threw the expansion specific rental abilities on top them, hunters and most classes-specs in the game got too many buttons and gimmicks for a comfortable rotation for most players. Of course with the exception of destro locks, ret palas, sin rogues, havoc dhs, frost dks, which still have a low...ish amount of keys.

I just want to play a Hunter that isn't requiring that I grow a 3rd arm and a 3rd eye to press all the keys and watch all the buffs/debuffs/short cds. There are plenty of classes-specs that do have that requirement and apparently plenty of people enjoy them , but that doesn't mean all should be like that despite certain people here advocating for more keys. God knows Hunters really don't need more keys than they had in BFA!!!

[Duskpanther]

I don't want it in Shadowlands. It's boring and using a gcd on it hurts my stomach everytime.

If hunter marks would give you really 5% increased damage over all other classes then ok, but blizzard is (trying to) balance dps for all classes so they give us hunter mark keeping our dps same as all other. So my dear blizzard, whats the point ? In any single target fight we will just have to waste a gcd to get in exchange nothing. Btw , do the rogues vanish clear hunters mark ?

[Pigglix]

No, but cloak of shadows clear it

[Kaver]

What’s irrelevant? The fact you only have 1, on a fight that requires constant reapplication to different targets is the entire relevancy of some people being upset. It’s a crap ability. It’s also one that allows a Hunter to do their full damage, based on ability kit, to one target.
In a way, it’s almost a nerf. For an example, outside of Shadowlands you might do 1,000 damage. SL drops and say you still do 1,000 damage ST, but to compensate for the ability being added back Blizzard reduces it by 5%. So w/o using the ability you actually do 950 damage. To get back to 1,000 you need to apply it, otherwise you nerf yourself. Considering if you nerf yourself w/o using it, that means in any situation involving cleave/AoE you only get to do your full damage to 1 target while doing 5% less to every other target.
You can’t try and argue this as HM isn’t a potion or flask, or even a single target damage proc on a weapon or trinket. The issue is that HM is a Hunter’s base toolkit, which means it’s full damage requires that ability, so you only get to do your full base kit damage to 1 target.
Shamans also effect everyone’s damage, or just themselves. It also needs reapplied once every 2 minutes instead of every target swap (which can be quite frequent on cleave/priority target fights). It’s not like it’s a huge difference, but it is still different.

I fully understand this point, but you have to consider that what you describe will probably only apply to single target abilities. With HM Blizzard have to balance our damage in single target encounters based on HM. You’re completely right. But they don’t have to balance the damage AOE abilities like multishot and beast cleave based on HM. They don’t need to nerf beast cleave just because 1 out of 5 targets got a 5% buff. So it will most likely only impact our single target abilities like KC and CS.

[Eapoe]

I fully understand this point, but you have to consider that what you describe will probably only apply to single target abilities. With HM Blizzard have to balance our damage in single target encounters based on HM. You’re completely right. But they don’t have to balance the damage AOE abilities like multishot and beast cleave based on HM. They don’t need to nerf beast cleave just because 1 out of 5 targets got a 5% buff. So it will most likely only impact our single target abilities like KC and CS.

I’m not stating they have to nerf our cleave because of HM. I’m saying it IS nerfed because of it. We have an ability that if we don’t use we nerf our own damage. So that translates that to do or full available damage we have to use it. To not use it means we do 5% less than we should. This ability only applies to single target, so in a cleave/AoE situation it becomes 2 ways of thinking:
Positive thinking-HM allows you to do full damage to 1 target and 5% less to all others, but hey that’s how it was designed so it’s our full damage regardless.
Negative thinking-HM only allows our full damage potential on 1 target and 5% less on all others. Due to this our damage is nerfed on all other targets because we can’t mark all of them.
So, while there can be 2 conflicting thoughts on the same subject, I take it as the negative because we also have to add juggling a GCD usage around on specific encounters which doesn’t allow us to do damage from it.

[Darkke]

I wonder how many of the people calling HM iconic etc would just macro this "iconic ability" to another ability if it was off GCD?

[Kaver]

I’m not stating they have to nerf our cleave because of HM. I’m saying it IS nerfed because of it. We have an ability that if we don’t use we nerf our own damage. So that translates that to do or full available damage we have to use it. To not use it means we do 5% less than we should. This ability only applies to single target, so in a cleave/AoE situation it becomes 2 ways of thinking:
Positive thinking-HM allows you to do full damage to 1 target and 5% less to all others, but hey that’s how it was designed so it’s our full damage regardless.
Negative thinking-HM only allows our full damage potential on 1 target and 5% less on all others. Due to this our damage is nerfed on all other targets because we can’t mark all of them.
So, while there can be 2 conflicting thoughts on the same subject, I take it as the negative because we also have to add juggling a GCD usage around on specific encounters which doesn’t allow us to do damage from it.

But in the end doesn’t the impact of it depend on how Blizzard balance our AOE abilities? I mean a nerf is relative. If beast cleave still does good damage to targets without HM compared to other classes then we don’t really have a problem. I think people are starting to be overly critical at this point and focus on small nitpick issues.

[Unholyground]

They should make Hunters Mark a cool looking shot that does some damage over time and then you extend it with Aimed Shot. Bam synergy and it took me like 15 seconds to come up with it.

[Schizoide]

That also would be perfectly fine, but it isn't how Hunter's Mark worked in vanilla so they don't see it as an unprune and won't do it.

[Tyze]

That also would be perfectly fine, but it isn't how Hunter's Mark worked in vanilla so they don't see it as an unprune and won't do it.

If they don't want to change it then remove it. Or simply make it for pvp only to spot invis.

[Kumorii]

It's almost as if pruning sometimes have a purpose....

[Srg56]

Hunter's mark hales from an era in which WoW tried to be an RPG. Not every ability has to be in constant use for it to exist, this isn't a fisher-price toy store. You're supposed to want your class to be able to differentiate itself from others, to have it's own, separate gameplay style. Otherwise, let's just scrap all classes and go the cookie cutter korean type game way of having "the warrior, the mage, the archer" and be done with it.

Hunter's mark should remain not only because it brings flavor to a class but because it's also useful in PvP for keeping track of rogues and druids, who in turn, ask for help from classes which can dispel the debuff. This starts a feedback effect in PvP, be it arenas or battlegrounds or even world pvp, in which players are able to interact with each other beyond getting healed or getting killed. It's small stuff like this which gives more depth to the game without necessitating big developer investment in game systems. The mage's "detect magic" was also one of these types of buff/debuff areas of the game which have been removed for no good reason and hurt the game in the long term.

Wanting quick, snappy, reaction based combat with little investment outside of pressing keyboard buttons has it's place, to be sure. The warrior class has that in droves, it's one of the reasons i've mained one for the last few years. But you shouldn't deride those who want to see more depth to combat and more options to the way they can affect it, even before engaging in it. Hunter's mark is one of those abilities, which, when used properly, can turn the tide of battle when fighting any stealth or invisibility using class.

If i were to have any input in it's implementation, i'd definitely choose the off GCD version, even if it will be macroed by heavy PvE enthusiasts, who seem to be the majority in this thread. Even if it's to be implemented as part of GCD, i'd still want it ingame because if there's no hunter's mark, you're only a ranged rogue or a mana-less mage at the end of the day.

[Schizoide]

If they don't want to change it then remove it. Or simply make it for pvp only to spot invis.

Yes, that is what most people want and it absolutely will happen.

...in patch 10.0.

[Jamais]

Hunter's mark hales from an era in which WoW tried to be an RPG. Not every ability has to be in constant use for it to exist, this isn't a fisher-price toy store. You're supposed to want your class to be able to differentiate itself from others, to have it's own, separate gameplay style. Otherwise, let's just scrap all classes and go the cookie cutter korean type game way of having "the warrior, the mage, the archer" and be done with it.

Hunter's mark should remain not only because it brings flavor to a class but because it's also useful in PvP for keeping track of rogues and druids, who in turn, ask for help from classes which can dispel the debuff. This starts a feedback effect in PvP, be it arenas or battlegrounds or even world pvp, in which players are able to interact with each other beyond getting healed or getting killed. It's small stuff like this which gives more depth to the game without necessitating big developer investment in game systems. The mage's "detect magic" was also one of these types of buff/debuff areas of the game which have been removed for no good reason and hurt the game in the long term.

Wanting quick, snappy, reaction based combat with little investment outside of pressing keyboard buttons has it's place, to be sure. The warrior class has that in droves, it's one of the reasons i've mained one for the last few years. But you shouldn't deride those who want to see more depth to combat and more options to the way they can affect it, even before engaging in it. Hunter's mark is one of those abilities, which, when used properly, can turn the tide of battle when fighting any stealth or invisibility using class.

If i were to have any input in it's implementation, i'd definitely choose the off GCD version, even if it will be macroed by heavy PvE enthusiasts, who seem to be the majority in this thread. Even if it's to be implemented as part of GCD, i'd still want it ingame because if there's no hunter's mark, you're only a ranged rogue or a mana-less mage at the end of the day.

Good post, agree 100%.

[Noctiphobia]

Hunter's mark hales from an era in which WoW tried to be an RPG. Not every ability has to be in constant use for it to exist, this isn't a fisher-price toy store. You're supposed to want your class to be able to differentiate itself from others, to have it's own, separate gameplay style. Otherwise, let's just scrap all classes and go the cookie cutter korean type game way of having "the warrior, the mage, the archer" and be done with it.

Hunter's mark should remain not only because it brings flavor to a class but because it's also useful in PvP for keeping track of rogues and druids, who in turn, ask for help from classes which can dispel the debuff. This starts a feedback effect in PvP, be it arenas or battlegrounds or even world pvp, in which players are able to interact with each other beyond getting healed or getting killed. It's small stuff like this which gives more depth to the game without necessitating big developer investment in game systems. The mage's "detect magic" was also one of these types of buff/debuff areas of the game which have been removed for no good reason and hurt the game in the long term.

Wanting quick, snappy, reaction based combat with little investment outside of pressing keyboard buttons has it's place, to be sure. The warrior class has that in droves, it's one of the reasons i've mained one for the last few years. But you shouldn't deride those who want to see more depth to combat and more options to the way they can affect it, even before engaging in it. Hunter's mark is one of those abilities, which, when used properly, can turn the tide of battle when fighting any stealth or invisibility using class.

If i were to have any input in it's implementation, i'd definitely choose the off GCD version, even if it will be macroed by heavy PvE enthusiasts, who seem to be the majority in this thread. Even if it's to be implemented as part of GCD, i'd still want it ingame because if there's no hunter's mark, you're only a ranged rogue or a mana-less mage at the end of the day.

Remove damage increase from it. Keep stealth detection. Then you have an ability that isn't always useful, but when you actually use it, it's meaningful.
Having damage increase on it just so that you use it on everything you attack is stupid and boring.

[Beatman]

Just apply it to high priority or high health targets in AoE - otherwise don't bother with it. In boss encounters you literally apply it one time. Don't really see the problem. I like Hunters Mark.

[Jamais]

Remove damage increase from it. Keep stealth detection. Then you have an ability that isn't always useful, but when you actually use it, it's meaningful.
Having damage increase on it just so that you use it on everything you attack is stupid and boring.

Except that you are not supposed to use it on everything you attack. You are supposed to evaluate will it be worth putting HM up on a target (how long will it live, how high of a prio the target it, etc.). It is your right to deem it boring, but nevertheless, it is still smth that needs management.