The Great Classic Raid Lie

[Netherblood]

Well if you want to make THAT argument, for the very top in Classic WoW you need to grind out High Warlord/Grand Marshal else you can't compete and it's basically their job so still harder than retail.

Also lol at all the mythic simps ITT,
Yeah stacking 19 fire mages and 1 tank is really hard guys. Bosses die in a few seconds and no mechanics need to be followed, so difficult guys oh wow. You don't even need healers for mythic raiding fking lmao so hard guys.

I'll give you that r14 grind is mega tough but at that point you can compare that to very top guilds that grinded islands 18hours a day for a week and grinded out 5 characters before tier begins.

No bosses die in few seconds still compared to classic, fastest kills are 90 seconds basically. They all require at least 1 healer and thats on early bosses only. Later bosses still require you to do mechanics and more healers and take a while, even early bosses require you to do mechanics cause you only have 1 healer. This is also deep farm with insane corruptions, prog is long over. Everyone knows gear growth is insane in retail between tiers and end of x-pac always gets ridiculous with power gains, using that as example is stupid when completely ignoring difficulty of mythic during fresh tier release.

[Theoris]

I keep seeing people endlessly repeat the same lie over and over again about wow classic raids. They keep saying that others argued that classic raids would take months to clear because of mechanical difficulty.

Nobody ever made that argument. Nobody thought wow classic raids were mechanically difficult. Get over it. Move on.

Mark Kern did (if you want one example of someone who talked out of his ass about Classic raids themselves being harder than retail raids).

[Kikazz]

Funny you say that, We cleared Mythic Ashvane since week 2 of mythic.......We saw 4 Razer Corrals, 2 of them on bonus loot rolls for people who already had them for months. Many of us had to go back to mythic to get them.

but they were seen yes?

we have done MC since day Dot, we have yet to get a BRE to drop, or a Firelords Choker or a Strikers Mark.

as i said 6+ months for an ITEM to DROP.

you have at least seen one.

[Jurwi]

I keep seeing people endlessly repeat the same lie over and over again about wow classic raids. They keep saying that others argued that classic raids would take months to clear because of mechanical difficulty.

Nobody ever made that argument. Sure, maybe one person did somewhere, but that was never the conversation. The contention was that classic raids would take a long time to clear because of how long it takes to level, gear, and access the content. That’s it. It never had anything to do with mechanical difficulty.

Obviously, they were still wrong. I think for three reasons:

1. It’s faster to level and gear than people assumed, although still way longer than retail.
2. They underestimated how much more powerful 1.12 characters are.
3. They underestimated the knowledge held by people playing on private servers.

Bottom line: this never had anything to do with mechanical complexity. It was always about time investment, low drop rates, etc.. Can we please put this lie to bed? Nobody thought wow classic raids were mechanically difficult. Get over it. Move on.

I don't remember ever seeing this "lie" you're talking about. I don't remember seeing people argue that Classic raids would be mechanically hard, nor do I remember seeing anyone saying that people did argue about that. Closest thing to "lie" seems to be the OP.

[DeltrusDisc]

Why do I feel like every month I see another thread saying exactly this?

No one cares. Stop posting it.

[TJ]

Getting r14 in a month let alone a week is literally impossible. Not "try harder and you can do it" - literally never ever ever possible.

Dude, my brother's friend's aunty's dog's grandad works at Blizzard and he got R14 in 1 week. Git gud.

[VinceVega]

Classic vs vanilla threat No. 99854635

Why do you care? Just play the game you like and stop shitting on the other because there are more than enough people who like both...

Now MY strawman: A few friends of mine started classic again because retail was them to hard to keep up with encounter and class wise. In classic they can clear everything in retail they have problems with normal.

[ydraw]

Most people take around ten days of played time to reach 60 in classic. You can literally be max level in retail in 1/20th of that. You are delusional.

Why make shit up though?

Took me 4 days /played to reach level 60 in classic, starting fresh with nothing at all. Subsequent toons took less because I had gold to spend on gear.

And then the game is over because the raids are faceroll, boring trash.

- - - Updated - - -

Yea, it's been talked about numerous times now.. why did you feel the need to create another topic man? No one knew what they were doing completely back then and so it took forever. It was never hard, just really grindy.

Because classic players who have been calling retail "faceroll mode for morons" for years have a need to pretend that what they are doing is hard. In reality the reverse is true and that makes them incredibly mad.

[anon5123]

They keep saying that others argued that classic raids would take months to clear because of mechanical difficulty.

Strawman. I literally never saw a single person say this.

- - - Updated - - -

Why do I feel like every month I see another thread saying exactly this?

No one cares. Stop posting it.

Salty retail players have to desperately justify the $500 they spent on ingame pets and mounts that they can't use in Classic.

[Fathr]

Why do I feel like every month I see another thread saying exactly this?

No one cares. Stop posting it.

Exactly! Its patch 1.12 after all, and with all the years of research and training how can classic been seen as hard ? Its not like anyone is clueless about anything in classic, its been done a trillion times allready.

[Dalinos]

For all of you saying Classic is easy, why don't you prove it by clearing it? I mean, if I say "Learning Spanish is piss easy, lol noobs" then the answer will probably be "Ok, go read and analyze the Adventures of Don Quixote in full Spanish for me please".

Hence, I ask for you to do the same. Go on Classic, make a guild, clear the content.

I think you all underestimate how difficult it is to keep a guild up and running. A guild that is both good and has fun when they play together. The officer team in my guild is putting tremendous amounts of effort in recruiting, researching gear lists and many other managerial things. Like, check this out: They post SUNDAY'S raid roster on a Google Docs Excel sheet on discord on FRIDAY, based on sign-ups they see from the in-game Calendar addon. There is another, public excel sheet, also on our discord which is the loot distribution. Every single piece of loot that has been given out by the Loot council has been recorded on that excel sheet - who got what, in which raid, on which date, since last October.

Wanna know what the officer teams of the past did when the raid format switched from 40man/20man to 25man/10man in TBC? they fucking rejoiced. They had a party. They LOVED the fact that the managerial aspect (the ACTUAL hard aspect) was being toned down, in place of a harder raid aspect.

Now, I'm not one to claim vanilla raids are hard MECHANICALLY. They are hard for other reasons. As an example, last Sunday, one of our warlocks was benched because it was his turn to be benched due to rotation. Sure, no problem, we're a guild with around 52 active raiders, so rotation happens every week. It would be suicidal to be a raiding guild that raids 40man with 40 raiders - that would need 100% raid attendance from everyone, which leads to burnout. So, we have more than 40, and we rotate. Nothing wrong with that. He joined a semi-guild/semi-PUG run.

It took our guild 63 minutes to clear BWL last Sunday. We started our raid at the same time as the semi-guild/semi-pug run that our warlock joined. By the time we had killed Nef, they had just killed Razorgore. Let that sink in for a little. In the time it took us to clear 8 bosses, the semi-guild/pug run had cleared 1.

Why, you ask? Well, as always, it's a myriad of factors. It's always a combination of player skill, fight difficulty, time spent preparing among other things. Razorgore for example is one of those bosses where if the tanks fuck up, the raid dies. If one of the melee gets Conflagrated and spreads dmg to the rest of the melee group they're dead in 3 seconds.

Also, don't forget MC and BWL were balanced around 8 debuff slots, not 16 like we have now. AQ40 was balanced around 16 debuff slots. Naxxramas was balanced around both 16 debuff slots AND flasks AND world-buffs (to an extent).

It's also the Dark Souls effect that takes place. My save file on Dark Souls 1 is at around 340 hours, my character is around level 245. I've basicly hit the ceiling on diminishing returns, where 1 extra point in Vitality gives me like 3.8 HP, instead of 15 like it used to. My first playthrough of Dark Souls 1 on the PS3 took me around 3 weeks. After 340 hours though, I reached a point where I was blazing through the whole game in 1 afternoon 6h session. Would you look at that. Numbers seem familiar, hm? Going from 2-3 weeks down to 6 hours?

Oh, what's that? I need the Butterfly bosses Soul Fragment to craft her weapon? Sure, lemme just complete the story, start a New Game +24, quickly clear to her and murder her with my eyes closed cause I've beat that boss 23 other times and know her movements, ability queues and hit-box perfectly. I'll also skip one of her mechanics while I'm at it, because after dying to it 3-4 times in the past I now have the knowledge of where to stand EXACTLY so I can ignore that mechanic and keep DPSing her. Seems...familiar, right? Is Dark Souls, the most difficult modern game franchise created considered EASY, because a random Greek dude called Dalinos can clear the whole game in 6 hours and kill bosses with his eyes closed? I...think not.

Now, apply the Dark Souls explanation to Vanilla WoW, replace the numbers with the relevant ones and you'll realise it's exactly the same thing. As the great Bruce Lee (may he rest in peace) once said,

"I do not fear the man who knows 1,000 techniques and has practised them once each. I fear the man who knows 1 technique and has practised it 1,000 times"

Just like I, and many others learned to clear Dark Souls 1 in 6 hours due to learning the game literally off by heart, by practicing and farming and perfecting our fighting styles, the same can be applied to Vanilla WoW. It's just that simple.

- - - Updated - - -

but they were seen yes?

we have done MC since day Dot, we have yet to get a BRE to drop, or a Firelords Choker or a Strikers Mark.

as i said 6+ months for an ITEM to DROP.

you have at least seen one.

Mate, I play both retail and classic. The other day 1 of my RL mates that I do M+ with was like "Ah fuck it Dali, 7th N'zoth kill on this char and I still don't have my BIS azerite helmet". My answer was "Bro...I've been killing Nefarian every week religiously for 4 MONTHS and I still don't have my Lok'Amir". We've also seen 0 Chromatically Tempered Swords and 0 Ash'Kandi's as well.

[arkanon]

snip

What an absolute load of garbage - i run with a guild that is nearly all first timers, me and a few friends are the only ones that played vanilla, and none of us played PS. We absolutely destroy every raid, every encounter, within hours of release. If we dont have 40, we run short, because in no way is the game tuned for 40. The game is easy because..........the game is easy. Your dark souls analogy is terrible - Games of that nature require hours of practice learning the bosses timing and tells, and requires a solid level of dexterity and quick control inputs - classic requires people to stand still and spam 1-2 buttons for a couple of minutes.

The level of mental gymnastics you lot go through to try and prove vanilla was hard, or that classic is hard is really quite cringe-worthy. Enjoy it for what it is - remedial wow.

[Trinkie]

im hoping we get a pre nerf Cthun

"I hope we get a prenerf BWL"
"I hope we get a prenerf MC"
"ZG priests up is gonna be hard"

When do you people stop thinking it's not gonna be a shitshow

"Oh just wait, Huhuran is gonna be very difficult with that poison tick!"
He's gonna fucking die in 10 seconds flat and you don't even need GNPP for it, that's how laughable it is.

[Dalinos]

What an absolute load of garbage - i run with a guild that is nearly all first timers, me and a few friends are the only ones that played vanilla, and none of us played PS. We absolutely destroy every raid, every encounter, within hours of release. If we dont have 40, we run short, because in no way is the game tuned for 40. The game is easy because..........the game is easy. Your dark souls analogy is terrible - Games of that nature require hours of practice learning the bosses timing and tells, and requires a solid level of dexterity and quick control inputs - classic requires people to stand still and spam 1-2 buttons for a couple of minutes.

The level of mental gymnastics you lot go through to try and prove vanilla was hard, or that classic is hard is really quite cringe-worthy. Enjoy it for what it is - remedial wow.

Mate, re-read my post please. I did not say Classic raids were hard MECHANICALLY. I said they were hard in the MANAGERIAL sense. Managing a team of 50 people of which you create a raid team of 40 people is factually harder to do than make a 25man raid or, in today's retail wow, a 20man raid. It is harder to get 40 people online at the same time than it is to find 20. It is harder to find 40 LIKE-MINDED people, so you can have a good functioning guild (that actually plays the game and doesn't simply raid log) than it is to find 20. This is simple fact. I said absolutely nothing about the mechanical difficulty of the raid - I simply said that once you've been playing a game for a long time, whether it's Dark Souls for 340 hours like my save file or World of Warcraft for 16 years, you just git gud at it, naturally. Hence the Bruce Lee quotation. No mental gymnastics here mate.

I ask you again - is Dark Souls 1 considered an easy game because I can finish the game in 6 hours flat? The hardest game-franchise the modern gaming world has seen? Ignore the fact I spent 3 months no-lifing it, ignore the fact I know all the bosses off by heart, ignore the fact my combos and hits and dodges are muscle-memory on the controller that I don't even need to think about in order to perform them, ignore the fact my character has maxed out stats and the best gear + weapons in the game. Is it an easy game because I can finish it, from beginning to end, in 6 hours?

[Trinkie]

Mate, re-read my post please. I did not say Classic raids were hard MECHANICALLY. I said they were hard in the MANAGERIAL sense. Managing a team of 50 people of which you create a raid team of 40 people is factually harder to do than make a 25man raid or, in today's retail wow, a 20man raid. It is harder to get 40 people online at the same time than it is to find 20. It is harder to find 40 LIKE-MINDED people, so you can have a good functioning guild (that actually plays the game and doesn't simply raid log) than it is to find 20. This is simple fact. I said absolutely nothing about the mechanical difficulty of the raid - I simply said that once you've been playing a game for a long time, whether it's Dark Souls for 340 hours like my save file or World of Warcraft for 16 years, you just git gud at it, naturally. Hence the Bruce Lee quotation. No mental gymnastics here mate.

You're confusing the word hard with tedious, there's your difference.

[Asrialol]

Scroll up. Lololol. Getting angry at people for not engaging the points being made after what you just did two posts up is funny stuff.

This argument is exactly the same every single time. Within 1 page the "classic raids are super duper hard" crowd are suddenly comparing it to LFR and talking about how leveling 1-60 takes longer than 110-120.

I love seeing them add leveling to their arguments. Though the fact that they seem to think any aspect of classic is "hard" is more amusing. Tedious isn't the same as hard.

[Gaidax]

This thread itself is the Classic Raid Lie.

The only response this shit thread needs.

We were hammered with various made up "vanilla this vanilla that" crap for years, which of course included these stories about raids and now suddenly you have the very same derps pop up and try to whitewash their crap with "it's not what we meant".

This is cute.

[Kumorii]

There is no lie. Some classic players claimed raiding was hard. Others told them they were delusional. It's proven that the ones claiming it was hard were wrong.

[Sinaa]

I'm not claiming that Vanilla raids were ever hard, however the modern healing addons, boss mods certainly help a ton. Back then you had to beg ppl to install addons, with mixed success.

[Torched]

Oh man the amount of delusion is hysterical. LFR N'soth is harder then any current classic boss atm.
Time investment does not mean = difficulty.
And no you will NOT be mythic raid ready in 10 hours like the OP said earlier, you would be being heavily carried by the other raiders if you even tried going in with only 10 hours of played time at max level, your cloak would be around rank 5, you would have rank 1 essences at max, no good corruption unless you are willing to kill yourself with them since you would have very little corruption resistance, your neck would be below 80.