Is it just me or are the top mythic raiders coming off as extremely entitled?

[Steelangel]

They only play each patch for 3 weeks anyway.

^^ This.

The hardest of the hardcore top 1% guilds want to come in, do their stupid race, flash their epeen and maybe hang out on twitch and abuse women or something.

I usually can't wait until that nonsense ends, so I can go back to enjoying my favorite game without everyone in /2 yammering about some guild full of jobless weirdos who play for 24 hours a day for a week or two like that's something incredible.

[Azerate]

This isn't a "Top mythic raiders" issue.

If you honestly think it's only the top 1% players who care about min-maxing, that's just wrong.

In most situations, yes it's only them that the extra bit of dps matters to squeeze out of everything, but the pursuit of trying to have every choice the best they can have isn't limited to JUST the best players.

Yes, but usually even for all the people who like min-maxing, there is a limit. At some point they will just not do something if it requires too much work. Like 10 hour of islands every day.

Some people try to create this false divide into "people who min max" and "people who don't care about their character" and proceed to mock the latter for not caring about building their toon in an rpg game. This is but an unfair simplification of the situation. It's entirely possible to enjoy improving your throughput and your stats, without devoting 150 hours to 0,001% increase in dps, that you will eventually get anyway without effort, by simply waiting a couple weeks.

[Soon-TM]

It isn't the top mythic raiders.

The entitled folk are just elitists - those players aren't elite at all.

You have basically three groups of people.

1) People who care about min maxing. They are directly impacted by Covenants in its current iteration.

2) People who don't care about min maxing, but don't partake in high level play. For them, covenants being swappable or not doesn't impact them in the slightest, since at a casual level of play, you can do decently with pretty much any class and any assortment of talents (including covenants). These people could roll e.g. Kyrian because they like blue angels, and don't switch ever - and still do just fine.

3) People who don't care about min maxing, but DO partake in high level play. These are the ones expecting others to carry their underperforming asses, if they happen to have chosen the wrong covenant for their preferred venue of endgame.

I frankly don't think that any MMO should cater ever to the third group.

[Vakir]

Some people try to create this false divide into "people who min max" and "people who don't care about their character" and proceed to mock the latter for not caring about building their toon in an rpg game. This is but an unfair simplification of the situation. It's entirely possible to enjoy improving your throughput and your stats, without devoting 150 hours to 0,001% increase in dps, that you will eventually get anyway without effort, by simply waiting a couple weeks.

Or we can consider: Blizzard should not design a system around 150 hours of work to make a change if something overperforms. They should read the fucking room and read their own spotty history and adapt their design philosophies to be flexible.

Ignoring that this is a pretty weak example anyway, considering we both know it's not gonna be 0.001%. It's going to be like 10%. And then they'll nerf it after 2 weeks and talk about "lessons we learned." Then later there will be another overperformer, possibly around the same amount. Ad infinitum.

Who does it benefit to have this system besides people who want to "stick it to those elitists?" It certainly doesn't make me have more of an attachment to my Covenant or Soulbinds - it makes me resent them.

[Sylvestra]

It's you.

/10char

[exochaft]

The big argument is that they have to maximize everything because that's the only way to beat the mythic bosses early. The assumption (theirs) is that Blizzard is intentionally tuning the encounters so as to require min maxing every single thing in the game including hair color, if it gives 0,001% dps increase.

Of course the reality is that those encounters are not intended to be beaten week one, but rather to be progressed and tackled over the course of weeks and months. If someone wants to go to all these lengths to maximize absolutely everything day 1 of the patch/expansions, they can't really be expected to be catered for.

Should everyone else be denied outdoor content that gives marginal output increases, just because 500 people in the world feel like they have to do it? The answer is obviously no. Preach (and others) argue that content can just be there for the sake of being fun, and that's cool and all, but for a casual player it's a nice little bonus if it gives a little more power for your character. Removing that whole aspect of the game, just cause world first raiders don't have to farm an additional thing doesn't make sense from the point of view of the good of the game.

Actually, Blizz has even stated that they do design the mythic encounters with guilds like (former) Method in mind. They even have an internal raid team that they use as a basis and scale the content with those top end guilds in mind. Even the class design teams do similar things.

I think you probably miss the point as to what the actual complaint is from people like Preach, myself, and others who mythic raid at a higher level: the problem is that there's extreme outliers, not that there's some marginal difference... and this issue only seems to be getting worse. The unfortunate reality is that there are choices in the game that are always right (or always wrong) because of the innate design of classes/specs/content/etc. While we would LOVE to just choose whatever we like or enjoy to play, realistically there are choices that only a fool wouldn't weigh as the difference between the two outcomes is too large in a world where even the smallest gains matter. This even extends to the most casual of players, as a casual playing making choices that could swing your performance output wildly still matter.

As a small example, we can even use something that Preach discussed in his Soulbind video and someone that popped into my head the first time I saw the system. There are some extreme outliers in the soulbinds that are WAY more powerful than other options, even leaving out the other aspects of covenants. There was initially a soulbind talent that gave you a cheat death that's been removed, because that ability along with the rest of the package was way too strong. There are some other abilities that just completely outshine the other options, as well, such as the versatility buff. Now, the issue isn't that there's some powerful options... the issue is that there's limited or only one path with anything of that power.

Which comes to the crux of the matter: with how Blizz balances the game as a whole, they're going to run into balancing nightmares of their own making. They're left with three options given their current structure and limitations: make everything weak/bland so there's no wrong choice, make everything OP (compared to the content) so that every choice is right, or give an illusion of choice (if you want to even call it that) where there are right and wrong choices.

[Jester Joe]

Yes, but usually even for all the people who like min-maxing, there is a limit. At some point they will just not do something if it requires too much work. Like 10 hour of islands every day.

Some people try to create this false divide into "people who min max" and "people who don't care about their character" and proceed to mock the latter for not caring about building their toon in an rpg game. This is but an unfair simplification of the situation. It's entirely possible to enjoy improving your throughput and your stats, without devoting 150 hours to 0,001% increase in dps, that you will eventually get anyway without effort, by simply waiting a couple weeks.

I mean, you're not wrong.
There's different levels to everything.

But in this case specifically, I would venture to say even the casual min-maxers would do something when it's as simple as "pick x instead of y".
Which is what Covenants come down to at start at least.

So while most people aren't going to be a THD and do hours upon hours of island expeditions before a raid, a lot will swap talents or gear around to suit the best build.
Which is where I disagree with OP.

Don't punish everyone just for the sake of feeling unique from the person next to you playing the same class.

Hell, I could go a step further and point out a big push in Legion was spec identity, having one mage feel different than the other mage next to them because one is fire and one is frost.
Something they're admitting they went too far with and rolling back in Shadowlands.

[Kralljin]

I mean it doesn't fit anywhere near close to the definition of entitlement. Elitist? Potentially. Entitled? Not by a long shot.

Well, you gotta call people you don't like something, doesn't matter if the term actually fits.

[Oneirophobia]

I want to raid the hardest content in the game, and this is the way I have to do it. It's not something I enjoy thoroughly, I'm FORCED to do this so 300 N'Zoth wipes doesn't turn into 800+.

Okay, counterpoint, why is, say, Castle Nathria at any difficulty level tuned around optimal covenant choice (which I assume is what this thread is about)? Shouldn't it be tuned around the "weakest" choice? If it isn't, of course nobody would choose the "weakest" choice, it isn't even a choice. You're not meant to play on the hardest difficulty if the fight isn't tuned to accommodate someone - even the entire raid - making that choice.

If blizzard is tuning mythic Nathria around everyone having the weakest covenant then it really shouldn't be an issue if a handful of players wanted to choose any particular covenant because the game is designed with that in mind.

Basically what I'm saying is, either Blizzard is legitimately forcing players to choose specific "powerful" covenants because they're balancing around it (which I don't think is the case), or your guild is forcing players to choose specific powerful covenants because they can't meet a skill bar. IE, if a guild requires you to have specific rank III corruptions on your gear to do normal Uldir maybe it's a player problem and not a covenant problem.

Similarly, classes are a permanent RPG choice and the game is balanced around that. If your guild says you need an army of 25 feral druids to down mythic N'zoth because suddenly a patch makes that "optimal," then your guild is the issue - not the choices.

[Soon-TM]

If blizzard is tuning mythic Nathria around everyone having the weakest covenant then it really shouldn't be an issue if a handful of players wanted to choose any particular covenant because the game is designed with that in mind.

This is an additional problem with all these borrowed powers - they are a real problem when it comes to PvE tuning. The best example is probably Legion, with AP 1.0 - devs had an interesting dilemma: should they balance the raid around the bunch of nolifers who minmaxed the !@#$ out of their artifacts with a bajillion MoS runs, or should they balance it around more "restrained" people? In what was probably a prudent decision, they opted for the latter - but that meant that the raid was really undertuned for the more hardcore crowd. Fast forward to 7.2, they balanced ToS around nolifers, which meant that they had to nerf it several times in a row, which isn't really a good solution.

And in this case, if stuff like e.g. Venthyr teleport proves to be a must for M+, what are they going to do?

[Oneirophobia]

Why can't you be Night Fae?

It isn't optimal. Therein lies the problem OP is talking about. "Higher up" guilds don't want to be suboptimal for any situation. If they can't switch their covenant easily between dungeons/raids/whatever situation they'd rather not play at all, and because every single player in this game considers themselves "above average, diamond in the rough" they too feel they need to be "optimal" as if their clicking, keyboard turning, and improper rotation execution isn't going to be a far bigger issue than what covenant they chose.

Personally I don't see why you wouldn't just spread covenants out somewhat equally among your members so you always have a few people excelling at whatever it is you're doing. If Nightfae is good at, say, aoe, have a few people in aoe. If Venthyr is single target, have a few in single target, etc etc. They don't want that. They want everyone to switch to Venthyr for X boss, then switch to Nightfae for Y boss, then switch to Kyrian for the last two, and so on. The game, even at its hardest difficulty, isn't going to be tuned around everyone being the optimal covenant for every pull - and if it is, Blizzard is shitting the bed more thoroughly than ever before.

Basically, higher end guilds want covenants to be talent trees because that's what they're used to - hollow choices that don't mean anything and are little more than inconveniences to switch between.

It's just yet another round-about form of AlphaxX42069SephirothXx, Hand of A'dal the fire mage getting upset he has to choose between being top DPS on Details! for single target or top DPS for aoe. If he can't switch easily so he can do both he doesn't want to play.

Blizzard should create a "change your covenant" option in the cash shop for real money, they'd make a killing off the same guilds who switched faction multiple times to take advantage of warfronts in order to "be optimal."

- - - Updated - - -

Ignoring that this is a pretty weak example anyway, considering we both know it's not gonna be 0.001%. It's going to be like 10%. And then they'll nerf it after 2 weeks and talk about "lessons we learned." Then later there will be another overperformer, possibly around the same amount. Ad infinitum. .

Well, yes, that is 100% going to be the case, which is why nobody should give a fuck about whether or not which covenant they chose is optimal. One is going to be infinite stars at launch. Then its going to get nerfed. Then another. Then another. It'll be whack-a-mole all expansion, so just choose the one you like and leave it at that because who knows which one is going to be great from patch to patch. So, who cares how long the process is to pick a new covenant? You're going to spend time perfecting your rotation with a new covenant ability in it only to have to switch it again if it becomes easy to switch anyway.

They can barely balance classes and those are pretty permanent choices, so you may as well just pick what you want.

[ONCHEhap]

Nothing can ever be permanent, you have to be able to completely change your entire playstyle between trash packs otherwise they can't play the game. I'm surprised that they aren't demanding multi classing and the ability to swap class at the click of a button like in FFXIV because god forbid you're not 100% optimal 100% of the time.

What about everyone else who do like to express themselves through their character and make it permanently unique from everyone else? I don't think we need less systems like covenant abilities, we need more of them. The feeling that my rogue is different from the rogue next to me is very important to a lot of people I would assume, it makes it feel like it's my rogue and not some disposable thing.

Yes I know that you can respec freely in Divinity, good job for finding that one game that allows for it, most RPGs don't.

these aren't top mythic raiders,they're middle of the pack raiders who believe themselves to be top mythic raiders,and act as if the entire game should bow down to their every whim.

As a mythic raider myself,I met plenty of those types,and I've met plenty of good players,and there's not much overlap

[Feral Druid ist Op]

Shit players still think "evil raiders" want to take things away from them, while in reality, terrible systems fuck everybody, you are just too bad to realise it.
Besides.
If I can switch everything easy - it doesn't affect you. Make your choice and roleplay the way you want.
But if we can not switch - it is fine for you, nothing changed, but other people are punished for nothing.
So...looks like you are the one who is entitled. You want to put an anchor on other, better player's feet to make them equal with you, and all this other bullshit about "but muh RPG" is just crap.
Make your choice and stick with it, fuck of with this shit from others, who want to change things like it was possible since the day one of the game.

this exactly, it still blows my mind that trashbag casual Jim WR 5000 raider even talks about things like game balance and rental powers stuff he dont have any clue about let alone theorycrafting or even palying this game @60%+ capacity....

those are the same ppl crying that lfr Nzoth is to hard and needs to get nerfed and that they geting declined from pugs with thier 20k dps..

I mean do your normal mode raid as a Nightfee Warlock and candicap yourself with -20% dps and farm yourself new relics every time you want to siwtch your spec but dont try to play down people with legetim complains... people who raiding progress for 10+ years at high lvl, people who know what they are talking about, people who did the math and testing

just stop it, do your lfr and stop talking about stuff you have no clue about

[Oneirophobia]

This is an additional problem with all these borrowed powers - they are a real problem when it comes to PvE tuning. The best example is probably Legion, with AP 1.0 - devs had an interesting dilemma: should they balance the raid around the bunch of nolifers who minmaxed the !@#$ out of their artifacts with a bajillion MoS runs, or should they balance it around more "restrained" people? In what was probably a prudent decision, they opted for the latter - but that meant that the raid was really undertuned for the more hardcore crowd. Fast forward to 7.2, they balanced ToS around nolifers, which meant that they had to nerf it several times in a row, which isn't really a good solution.

They tried having mobs in the outdoor world scale with your gear, which makes getting the gear in the first place a waste of your time. I'm glad that didn't end up in raids, which I kind of suspect is what it was fishing around testing for. The only real way to combat this stuff is to either cap power creep so you don't become absurdly powerful within a tier, IE if Mythic drops, say 450 gear, don't make 450 gear completely trivialize the content. Don't have infinitely scaling power creep options with infinitely farm-able currencies. It's also a bit of a player problem too, if someone sinks 1500 hours into Maw of Souls farming and then bitches and complains they're too powerful, who do they have to blame but themselves? I didn't collect all the most powerful gear in Breath of the Wild and then head to Ganon expecting him to beat the shit out of me.

They could also consider adding back in achievements and titles based on ilvl/AP level at time of content completion. Farming MoS for 1500 hours so everything is ezpz maybe shouldn't offer you the same achievements because now you've artificially decreased the difficulty to nothing. Nothing too strict though.

Venthyr teleport proves to be a must for M+, what are they going to do?

Honestly utility stuff like that either shouldn't exist or needs to be thought out far more carefully. They learned literally nothing from displacer beast and now they have gone and added displacer beast as an option for all the classes. Jesus christ, Blizzard.

[Vakir]

Well, yes, that is 100% going to be the case, which is why nobody should give a fuck about whether or not which covenant they chose is optimal. One is going to be infinite stars at launch. Then its going to get nerfed. Then another. Then another. It'll be whack-a-mole all expansion, so just choose the one you like and leave it at that because who knows which one is going to be great from patch to patch. So, who cares how long the process is to pick a new covenant? You're going to spend time perfecting your rotation with a new covenant ability in it only to have to switch it again if it becomes easy to switch anyway.

They can barely balance classes and those are pretty permanent choices, so you may as well just pick what you want.

Or. Or. Ooor...they can stop tying player power to things with lockouts and/or long grinds to swap when they know they are going to have tuning issues.

There is literally no excuse for not allowing flexibility between abilities, and there's also no excuse for not allowing more play diversity for each class. Nobody ends up with fear of missing out, people get to experiment with more builds, and people will always pick the Covenant they like most, as there is no direct benefit that overshadows your interest in a given Covenant's story, ethos, aesthetic, etc.. Everyone wins.

This is like if you got Seed of Corruption for going Aldor and Incinerate for going Scryer. It's dumb and shouldn't exist. The only reasons people defend it is purely out of this blind appeal to trusting the developers to always make the right call or purely out of spite towards "the elite," even though it'll negatively affect everyone in the long run.

[Tyris Flare]

The Preach video this is mostly referencing is incredibly fair and even-handed. He flat out owns up to his biases like 50 times and adds caveats to everything.

Anyway, my opinion hasn't change that this system is literally bad for everybody, it's just that some people haven't figured that out yet.

[Doffen]

Yes, high end raiders these days are entitled. To do current content to be competitive we could only dream of back when I was there. Seeing all the shit we had to do in TBC to be on top makes me feels today's raiders comes from another generation.

And they probably do.

[Tesshin83]

One more thing.

I agree that the upper 1% should min max. And I agree that for them, the covenants might be a very annoying issue.

The problem is that when I read these forums, I see that 50% of the population believe they are part of the 1%

[Vakir]

Yes, high end raiders these days are entitled. To do current content to be competitive we could only dream of back when I was there. Seeing all the shit we had to do in TBC to be on top makes me feels today's raiders comes from another generation.

And they probably do.

So does this mean you support regrinding Conduits for Soulbind swaps and regrinding/being outright locked into Covenant abilities?

Honest question.

The problem is that when I read these forums, I see that 50% of the population believe they are part of the 1%

One more time for the slow people in the back:

https://www.pcgamer.com/wow-covenant...ffer-pcgamertw

"What can easily be dismissed as a concern for only like the top fraction of one percent of players has a way of trickling down through guides and player perception into the behavior of a broader range of players," game director Ion Hazzikostas told me in an interview yesterday. "And I think, at the core of a lot of these concerns is the anxiety that someone is going to pick the Covenant that they think is coolest and then get told that they're being declined for a Mythic+ group, or pick-up group raid or whatever, because they're in the wrong Covenant. That's a very valid concern."

[Oneirophobia]

who want to change things like it was possible since the day one of the game.

Wrath baby alert. Weeooeeeoo.

Making difficult and thoughtful choices used to be the backbone of this game, of this genre, but talent trees and specs being switchable at pretty much zero cost or inconvenience has spoiled you. Being able to change faction, race, and server has spoiled you. Being able to purchase a max level character has spoiled you. The game boiling down to "but mooom my DPS meterrr my guildmate might be 2% higher on AOE fight while I'm 2% higher on single target AND I WANT TO BE BOTH LET ME CHANGE REEE" is a damaging outlook and one of the core reasons this game has hemorrhaged players over the years.

- - - Updated - - -

One more thing.

I agree that the upper 1% should min max. And I agree that for them, the covenants might be a very annoying issue.

The problem is that when I read these forums, I see that 50% of the population believe they are part of the 1%

Only 50%? You're so optimistic.

People are acting like they're going to lose their raid spot because their covenant is 2% less effecting on X boss fight of the current tier instead of the reality, which is that they never had a raid spot to begin with because they click, keyboard turn, and don't show up on raid night until 40 minutes in.