Is it just me or are the top mythic raiders coming off as extremely entitled?

[Vakir]

Making difficult and thoughtful choices used to be the backbone of this game, of this genre, but talent trees and specs being switchable at pretty much zero cost or inconvenience has spoiled you. Being able to change faction, race, and server has spoiled you. Being able to purchase a max level character has spoiled you. The game boiling down to "but mooom my DPS meterrr my guildmate might be 2% higher on AOE fight while I'm 2% higher on single target AND I WANT TO BE BOTH LET ME CHANGE REEE" is a damaging outlook and one of the core reasons this game has hemorrhaged players over the years.

You can still swap between specs in Vanilla, you just need to do some grinding to get the coin for it. Usually given enough time you can get enough farming on certain classes to cover these costs where they may as well not exist in the first place, particularly if you play a Frost Mage and do some Dire Maul AoEing.

It's an arbitrary amount of time invested for something that basically amounts to an additional chore to switch between different variations of what you'd like to play - PvP build, farming build, raiding build, etc.

There's a market for this, and you're not "wrong" for wanting it, but it's silly and short-sighted to believe that you can change the culture and the expectations that Blizzard has only emboldened for the last 10+ years on retail.

2% is also a huge underestimate. We both know that's not going to be where it stops. As it is, Door of Shadows is worth countless damage per second in M+ alone.

[Sithalos]

Yes, it is just you.

[Azerox]

Actualy you don't hear them, they are playing games.

[Oneirophobia]

There's a market for this, and you're not "wrong" for wanting it, but it's silly and short-sighted to believe that you can change the culture and the expectations that Blizzard has only emboldened for the last 10+ years on retail.

I'm not sure where I put that I was going to be able to change any of this but okay. I'm not sure making it worse is the right course of action.

2% is also a huge underestimate. We both know that's not going to be where it stops. As it is, Door of Shadows is worth countless damage per second in M+ alone.

Yes, and then in the first patch it'll be nerfed into oblivion and everyone will get upset they "missed out on choosing the covenant they actually wanted because they were 'forced' to be Venthyr", at which point blizzard will again reiterate that you shouldn't be choosing these stupid things based on optimization. Remember how many people sunk hours after hour farming infinite stars only to have temper tantrums on this very site when it got repeatedly adjusted and nerfed?

Blizzard is the fun police, obviously if something is worth "countless of damage in M+" to the point its completely blowing other things out of the water on alpha it aint gunna remain for long. Even if it gets to live, which it very well might, blizz is going to shit all over it eventually.

[Doffen]

So does this mean you support regrinding Conduits for Soulbind swaps and regrinding/being outright locked into Covenant abilities?

Honest question.

It means that I think anything I've seen from Bfa regarding end game system is that today's raiders have it easy. You need a new character? Level it up in a day. You need to gear up? Within 2 weeks, tops. The only issue now has been corruption, but corruption also made the last raid quite a lot easier faster than most other raids. Not a good thing imo. Maybe Shadowlands will make the last part harder, but I think that's long overdue. It doesn't mean I support anything really, it's an overall statement on the raiding scene today. If Shadowlands change this, doubtful, but who knows if gearing is going to be super slow. My bet is no.

I don't particularly like to regrind same stuff over and over if that answers your question, like Azerite traits which is crap, but having stuff bound to Covenant is a good thing. So your question is twofold. There is a balance issue, yes, but when has that never been a thing?

[Vakir]

Yes, and then in the first patch it'll be nerfed into oblivion and everyone will get upset they "missed out on choosing the covenant they actually wanted because they were 'forced' to be Venthyr", at which point blizzard will again reiterate that you shouldn't be choosing these stupid things based on optimization. Remember how many people sunk hours after hour farming infinite stars only to have temper tantrums on this very site when it got repeatedly adjusted and nerfed?

Infinite Stars is also still the best for single target and remains that way...? A better example was how people complained about corruptions being too RNG-heavy. Then Mythic guilds invested hundreds of millions of gold in getting corruptions. Then Blizzard implemented a QOL change to get targeted corruptions that frankly should've been in from the beginning.

Who did this benefit? Nobody. Well, actually, it benefits one - the bottom line of Blizzard.

They already said "If it becomes an issue, we'll make them all available to everyone." GUESS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN? The sooner it happens, the better we all are for it. Just like the Blizzard simps were against account-wide Essences and other QOL improvements, and then they totally supported their decision to make those things a reality once Father Blizzard declared it was OK.

Blizzard is the fun police, obviously if something is worth "countless of damage in M+" to the point its completely blowing other things out of the water on alpha it aint gunna remain for long. Even if it gets to live, which it very well might, blizz is going to shit all over it eventually.

But then that begs the question, what stops Blizzard from allowing something to be abusable before pulling the football away? Especially when they know it's going to encourage a large cross-section of the population (not just Mythic Raiders, see Ion's own quote) to have to swap and regrind to keep them hooked for a longer period of time.

Blizzard is the fun police, but their fun policing always feels so damn draconian and calculated. People not getting on the train to allow easily swappable Covenant abilities and non-destroyed Conduits don't realize that they're just backing a game design philosophy that doesn't care about them. They aren't trying to "save the beating heart of the RPG," because they haven't cared about the beating heart of the RPG for years. They're doing this to pad their system out and fuck around before implementing "fixes."

If they really want people to form a connection with a Covenant based on their world-building, ethos, lore, aesthetic, etc. and want people to "pick what they like, not the best one," then the easy solution is to not do this shit.

It means that I think anything I've seen from Bfa regarding end game system is that today's raiders have it easy. You need a new character? Level it up in a day. You need to gear up? Within 2 weeks, tops. The only issue now has been corruption, but corruption also made the last raid quite a lot easier faster than most other raids. Not a good thing imo. Maybe Shadowlands will make the last part harder, but I think that's long overdue. It doesn't mean I support anything really, it's an overall statement on the raiding scene today. If Shadowlands change this, doubtful, but who knows if gearing is going to be super slow. My bet is no.

So...let's allow them to design things poorly and openly encourage further balance disparity because "old man yells at cloud about having to raid uphill both ways." Got it.

[Jester Joe]

Only 50%? You're so optimistic.

People are acting like they're going to lose their raid spot because their covenant is 2% less effecting on X boss fight of the current tier instead of the reality, which is that they never had a raid spot to begin with because they click, keyboard turn, and don't show up on raid night until 40 minutes in.

It's weird that you feel the need to have to mock people/assume they're bad in some way to try to argue your point.

And even Ion admits there's a trickle down effect to it, and that there's the risk of people being punished for the "Wrong choice" at all levels of play.

[Eazy]

It's just you.

It's totally like in real life. While people on TOP of something(like being rich, or being a good engineer/doctor/artist/etc) don't care about opinion of others, they just do what they do and that's all. Most of the people I met on TOP are really nice and down to earth people.

While some kind of middle-class(or whatever you name it) are acting like they're TOP. They are bragging about almost anything, thinking like they're some super human beings(or you could say like... heroic/post-nerf mythic raiders).

...and then there are people who just don't give a fuck and do whatever they want.

[Vakir]

It's weird that you feel the need to have to mock people/assume they're bad in some way to try to argue your point.

And even Ion admits there's a trickle down effect to it, and that there's the risk of people being punished for the "Wrong choice" at all levels of play.

It feels hopeless to argue with these people. People will never be critical of the design decisions of Blizzard unless Blizzard themselves OKs it. Disparaging people's skill level is just their way of not having to acknowledge the elephant in the room that the norm is to optimize play rather than it being some 1% fringe.

Because I'm sure it was a total coincidence that it took so long for Visions to have guaranteed corruptions, followed by Echoes. Yup, the millions of gold people invested for corruptions surely didn't come from whales buying WoW Tokens as planned. Nope. Wasn't a calculated move at all. /s

Hold Blizzard accountable, people. Make Covenant abilities swappable and get destroyed Conduits the fuck out of here as a mechanic.

[Thetruth1400]

The feeling that my rogue is different from the rogue next to me is very important to a lot of people I would assume, it makes it feel like it's my rogue and not some disposable thing.

There's 100% nothing wrong with having everything different for personal reasons. The thing is, we're all disposable in this game and all want things as optimized as possible.

The problem arises when your personal choices make it so others don't want to play with you; this being an MMO and all.
- You're free to play whatever class, spec, covenant, soulbind, etc. system in place
- People are free to go "No thanks, we want X which brings Y% more utility, DPS, etc. to the group."

[Doffen]

So...let's allow them to design things poorly and openly encourage further balance disparity because "old man yells at cloud about having to raid uphill both ways." Got it.

So you don't want a proper conversation then, because "honest question". Got it.

[Vakir]

So you don't want a proper conversation then, because "honest question". Got it.

Nah, I just see through bullshit. There's a big difference between "balance problems have always existed" and "let's encourage balance problems because they're inevitable." Talking about your own history with previous raiding and how it was more difficult in certain ways doesn't change bad design decisions that amount to either extra busy-work or an outright lack of agency.

What is lost if Covenant abilities are flexible but everything else is not?

[Doffen]

Nah, I just see through bullshit. There's a big difference between "balance problems have always existed" and "let's encourage balance problems because they're inevitable." Talking about your own history with previous raiding and how it was more difficult in certain ways doesn't change bad design decisions that amount to either extra busy-work or an outright lack of agency.

That's not what I said at all, but I guess your intention was never to discuss this in a meaningful way. Someone having another opinion than you doesn't make it right to say that's bullshit. At least not when I didn't say that raiders today are entitled because of that reason. That was another question you asked. I have actually said that tuning of the Covenants is an issue for high end raiders several times in several threads. That I think today's raiders have it easier now than back then got nothing to do with that. But tuning has always been an issue, you think that's false?

What is lost if Covenant abilities are flexible but everything else is not?

The meaning of choice. That's actually a big one. And my opinion about that got zero to do with my statement of raiders having it easier today.

[Pury]

Wrath baby alert. Weeooeeeoo.

Making difficult and thoughtful choices used to be the backbone of this game, of this genre, but talent trees and specs being switchable at pretty much zero cost or inconvenience has spoiled you. Being able to change faction, race, and server has spoiled you. Being able to purchase a max level character has spoiled you. The game boiling down to "but mooom my DPS meterrr my guildmate might be 2% higher on AOE fight while I'm 2% higher on single target AND I WANT TO BE BOTH LET ME CHANGE REEE" is a damaging outlook and one of the core reasons this game has hemorrhaged players over the years.

It is not cataclysm outside, grandpa, "Wrath baby" doesn't work anymore.
There were a lot of expansions already and times have changed.

Only 50%? You're so optimistic.

People are acting like they're going to lose their raid spot because their covenant is 2% less effecting on X boss fight of the current tier instead of the reality, which is that they never had a raid spot to begin with because they click, keyboard turn, and don't show up on raid night until 40 minutes in.

Damn, this poor not even straw, but jellyman was completely demolished by you, he had no chance!

[Vakir]

That's not what I said at all, but I guess your intention was never to discuss this in a meaningful way. Someone having another opinion than you doesn't make it right to say that's bullshit. At least not when I didn't say that raiders today are entitled because of that reason. That was another question you asked. I have actually said that tuning of the Covenants is an issue for high end raiders several times in several threads. That I think today's raiders have it easier now than back then got nothing to do with that. But tuning has always been an issue, you think that's false?

They're an issue for high end raiders...and every single other person that approaches something outside LFR, whether they recognize right this second or not. This is the reality of the game's culture as it is now - as a cooperative game with a community that has an infrastructure to determine how optimized someone is, whether it's "easier" now or then, it's impossible to break away from the fact that people will feel compelled one way or the other. If that is not an issue for you, good on you - but it's selfish to pretend it won't influence others and that it doesn't matter to you just because it doesn't affect you.

The meaning of choice. That's actually a big one. And my opinion about that got zero to do with my statement of raiders having it easier today.

You know, I'd almost respect them and this Covenant decision if they also locked you into your specialization and talents. Or made it as expensive/time consuming to swap as it is to swap Covenants. Because at least then it would be a new developer ethos - "we want to go full scorched earth, go old school on everything." At least that would mean something.

But having it JUST be Covenants, and having player power so heavily wrapped in them, just makes me see it as a sham. They're selling an ointment they know they are going to have flies in just so they can give us a flyless version 9.1.5 to the callooh callays of the general unthinking public, all while keeping people who stay hooked for longer as a result. It's a calculated decision to sell a spottier version of the system.

I cannot buy, whether it is intentionally BS on your part or not, that "choice" only enters the picture when weighed on 2 player power based abilities but not every other aspect of a Covenant, because that implies those 2 abilities are all that matters and thus the rest of the Covenant is pointless window dressing and filler. And if it is, they've already failed. So if choice stops mattering because those two abilities are all that matters, I guess we can declare SL a failure, then? Since Covenants are basically their whole damn expac other than Torghast - a great system because I don't need to regrind to go to a different fucking cell block.

It's equally nonsensical because having a difference of 2 abilities when two of the same classes next to one another are already identical based on how talents are selected also undermines this so-called "meaning of choice." And that's only assuming that you aren't just seeing everyone using the same abilities anyway because the game currently encourages it, as we've established.

It creates less diversity in decision, not more, because it inherently discourages experimentation. If you want to play optimally, which we've established per the game's own director is not just Mythic raiders, you are uncomfortable going outside of the Covenant that is the undisputed "best." WoW's present systems don't work with it because everything else is so flexible - even if there's optimal talents, I still don't lose anything to try a different one for shits and giggles on run of the mill content. Not so with Covenants.

The biggest "fuck you" though is the people calling it elitism - caring that someone next to you has flexibility and only being satisfied if they are limited is elitism, no matter what level of content you're trying. Me giving you (general "you", not YOU) the full right to make a bad decision and deal with your own consequences of making that decision is the polar opposite of elitism. If you want to play something that isn't good, have a blast - but don't wrap the rest of us up in a bad system that encourages arbitrary swapping because of Blizzard's inevitable failure.

[Kageaki]

i'm finding the casuals are more entitled than top players tbh

[Frolk]

i'm finding the casuals are more entitled than top players tbh

Wish i could upvote and sticky this post to the frontpage forever.

[Doffen]

They're an issue for high end raiders...and every single other person that approaches something outside LFR, whether they recognize right this second or not. This is the reality of the game's culture as it is now - as a cooperative game with a community that has an infrastructure to determine how optimized someone is, whether it's "easier" now or then, it's impossible to break away from the fact that people will feel compelled one way or the other. If that is not an issue for you, good on you - but it's selfish to pretend it won't influence others and that it doesn't matter to you just because it doesn't affect you.

You know, I'd almost respect them and this Covenant decision if they also locked you into your specialization and talents. Or made it as expensive/time consuming to swap as it is to swap Covenants. Because at least then it would be a new developer ethos - "we want to go full scorched earth, go old school on everything." At least that would mean something.

But having it JUST be Covenants, and having player power so heavily wrapped in them, just makes me see it as a sham. They're selling an ointment they know they are going to have flies in just so they can give us a flyless version 9.1.5 to the callooh callays of the general unthinking public, all while keeping people who stay hooked for longer as a result. It's a calculated decision to sell a spottier version of the system.

I cannot buy, whether it is intentionally BS on your part or not, that "choice" only enters the picture when weighed on 2 player power based abilities but not every other aspect of a Covenant, because that implies those 2 abilities are all that matters and thus the rest of the Covenant is pointless window dressing and filler. And if it is, they've already failed. So if choice stops mattering because those two abilities are all that matters, I guess we can declare SL a failure, then? Since Covenants are basically their whole damn expac other than Torghast - a great system because I don't need to regrind to go to a different fucking cell block.

It's equally nonsensical because having a difference of 2 abilities when two of the same classes next to one another are already identical based on how talents are selected also undermines this so-called "meaning of choice." And that's only assuming that you aren't just seeing everyone using the same abilities anyway because the game currently encourages it, as we've established.

It creates less diversity in decision, not more, because it inherently discourages experimentation. If you want to play optimally, which we've established per the game's own director is not just Mythic raiders, you are uncomfortable going outside of the Covenant that is the undisputed "best." WoW's present systems don't work with it because everything else is so flexible - even if there's optimal talents, I still don't lose anything to try a different one for shits and giggles on run of the mill content. Not so with Covenants.

Yeah, it is selfish, that's why I think it's a concern that there are a good possibility that tuning will be an issue for those raiders, or those who wants to be the best. And I have said so, quite a few times in other threads. I mean, I am part of that myself, but I am at the point in the game that being best is not going to stop me from having the most fun I can as possible. My best time in WoW was in TBC where I played for hours every single day to be competitive, but where I was at that point in the game people didn't complain so much about it. Some people did, I am sure, but when I came back to WoD for example I was kinda blown away how easy it was to be a high end raider. Which is something I would think as a high end raider would be very boring. Because World of Warcraft is so much more than that. Which is why coming into Legion it was so good that there was some personal and group motives to come and play besides only raid. But there was a group who complained a lot of having to grind AP, which I think wasn't something to be complaining about. The AP being for one spec would be valid, but not the part when it comes to how you got that AP. The legendary rng acquisition was also bad, but to me being previously a hardcore raider, I thought you guys have nothing to complain about. And that was kinda strengthened going into BfA. I am not saying you or others are wrong however, that's just the way I see it. But I see the points. There are people who loves to raidlog, but that is not good for the health of the game. But I am convinced there is a place in between, and as of now Shadowlands seems to be that.

That there are issues, well, I think that's inevitable, and that's more my point about tuning generally. But that does not mean I am coming with bullshit when I say this, because 100% balance is impossible. But I am in the same boat as you when it comes to that blizzard better do this right. But I don't think they will 100%, but I am in a position to be more forgiving seeing I kinda like playing this game, not only to raid, but for stuff outside it too. That does not mean I don't see, or anyone else perspective. Not in the slightest.

The biggest "fuck you" though is the people calling it elitism - caring that someone next to you has flexibility and only being satisfied if they are limited is elitism, no matter what level of content you're trying. Me giving you (general "you", not YOU) the full right to make a bad decision and deal with your own consequences of making that decision is the polar opposite of elitism. If you want to play something that isn't good, have a blast - but don't wrap the rest of us up in a bad system that encourages arbitrary swapping because of Blizzard's inevitable failure.

I agree, I don't think its elitism. I think it's a valid concern. But I also think that you already made up your mind of what I am thinking, even though I am writing why and that I also see the issues. Does not take away my point of players being more entitled today when it comes to the high end raiding scene, I think when people complain about what they have to do is blown out of proportion a lot. But not when it comes to actual issues like RNG and grind that feels bad because you have this feeling of already grinded this thing, like Azerite traits. Which is why when I am reading about the soulbinds being re-grinded might not be a good decision, but it all depends about accessibility of said items.

[Vakir]

@Doffen OK, understandable and reasonable. I misunderstood entirely that "It was harder back in X" was unrelated to the same point. I genuinely apologize.

[Doffen]

@Doffen OK, understandable and reasonable. I misunderstood entirely that "It was harder back in X" was unrelated to the same point. I genuinely apologize.

No worries, I was just as bad as you, so I am sorry too.

I do hope they get stuff right for Shadowlands, for all of us. I really do. If I get into beta you bet I will complain for every kind of players that plays wow. Except Pet Battlers.