Wait...When Did People Start To Bitter To Shadowlands?

[Malix Farwin]

BFA has been so bad people just want to be very CRITICAL of SL to make sure its good because if it flops like BFA did, WoW may never recover. People like Preach are doing the right thing by pointing out anything that may be a potential issues(for example pointing out the Paladin Blessing of Seasons Covenant ability that got removed) so that when you finally get your hands on the game its no the best possible state it can be and you wont have to wait until or 9.1 or a 9.1.5 or even them trying to spend the entire xpac trying to fix things and still fail like BFA.

[Krakan]

You know, the more I think on this, the more I've come to realize something. I think the problem is that the endgame is too 'tight'. To function at the highest level requires multiple people performing optimally in a situation. The solution to allow more varity while pleasing the hardcore could be to just flesh out how combat works in mythic raiding. Not really make it easier, but have different ways of doing it. I've noticed that the longer WoW goes on, the more specific strategies to fight bosses has become. It used to vary, depending on the classes, specs, and levels of player skill on EVERYONE involved. I mean, look at WoW classic. The first group to down Ragnaros didn't even have a full 40 level 60 max geared optimally specced raid team.

If you have a good strategy and gameplan for what you have, almost any team with the right item levels and skill level should be able to down a mythic boss, because they SHOULD be flexible enough for a new strategy depending on the team. Strategy and the ability to execute it should be the test of a mythic raider, not skills with a keyboard and team of optimally built characters. In a game like that there WOULDN'T be an optimal character, because every single character you can build to that point wouldn't be worth any more or less than another. Just a different tool in raid leader's belt when devising a strategy. Yeah, you might get more outright DPS on Boss Y with Covenant X, but if you enough players who picked Covenant Z, you might be able to beat it by having them all click the orbs with Covenant Z's 'mathematically inferior' movement abilities.

Making content easier would be a solution. It would drastically change end game though you would see a lot more guilds go into hibernation.

I don't honestly know if that is a better solution or not. It could well be a compromise though I wouldn't see it as an ideal one.

[Noct]

I've been in the camp of skeptical since announcement. Torghast and the general aesthetic are the two things that excite me about the expansion...but that's about it.

I appreciate Preach's point. As an avid PvPer, it's pretty clear some classes have a clear best covenant ability for the gamemode (*cough* *cough* monk *cough* *cough*), and the moment they announced it I was immediately concerned this would happen. It may also be that one movement ability (maybe Fae) is so good in PvP that everyone goes with that regardless of what the active ability is.

Regardless, it seems fun, but with the endless ways they are adding progression and customization, I am certainly overwhelmed at how far off I might be homebrewing a build compared to a raw statistics try-harder like Preach. I'm sure it'll be entertaining the first month but end up feeling like and endless grind for my alts after. We'll see!

Also, where is gouge for all rogue specs and troll beards????

[Selastan]

Making content easier would be a solution. It would drastically change end game though you would see a lot more guilds go into hibernation.

I don't honestly know if that is a better solution or not. It could well be a compromise though I wouldn't see it as an ideal one.

Never said easier, just flexible. If anything, it could be harder. Because not only would you have to get geared, but with the game built around more optional and drastic abilities, fights could be much, MUCH harder. With everyone having crazy abilities all over the place, finding a strategy to deal with much more powerful bosses would be a great and fun challenge.

[Dakara]

Or people are quick to brand people as haters as soon as they disagree. I like Preach, but with this particular topic I think he's way too biased to make content about it and it really shows in this latest video. He hasn't made a bad video for as long as I can remember but this covenant power thing is really messing with him.

I just think he needs to take a break and try to understand people who don't treat WoW as just a raiding game since he himself says he doesn't understand. Maybe talk to some people who has their roots in pen & paper RPGs like a lot of us do I'd imagine, talk to people who don't even try mythic or clear it just prior to the next content patch. He's not going to find those people in his audience, he's not going to find them in the circles he frequents.

I'm one of those people. I've played RPGs in all forms for my entire life and the loadout style game that WoW has become is very far from where it should be in my opinion. It's very gamey and if you think about it it really doesn't make any sense what so ever that my character would have a completely different setup from one group of mobs to the other. I absolutely understand what it is Blizzard is trying to save.
My mythic raid team doesn't always clear the raids but when we do it's way down the line. We go in with the classes we enjoy for the most part and we don't change our spec from what we enjoy and are comfortable with unless it's completely necessary. That's still more hardcore than the vast majority of the playerbase and we'll be completely fine with whatever covenants people pick.

There is no way Preach went to bed happy about that video because it came from a very bad place of fear and desperation.

I remember early BFA, when Azerite gear was scarce, the entire community was up in arms over the respec costs because the BIS traits were different for Raids/M+/PVP or simply so they could change between specs. Blizzard created the “load out” game and players like Preach just live in it.

I’ve spent most of my gaming life in RPG’s aswell, including pen and paper before we even had a computer... I wish WOW had more RPG and less MDI, but Blizzard seems to want its cake an eat it too by having an “RPG ESport”.

At some point they’re going to have to make a choice, otherwise the players will make it for them by moving on. Right now, I’d say they’re in no mans land. The RPG element is barely there with Covenants in a failed attempt to balance them, no matter how many times Ion try’s to sell us on “meaningful choice”.

So what we’ve got, will be top end players frustrated over another borrowed power system and RPG players getting sick of throwing the same Vampire party every week while only getting one spell that somehow sets them apart from others of the same class.

Yes, I’m probably over jaded on the Covenants but that’s because Blizzards history doesn’t instill much confidence that they’ll get this right.

[Sephirosu]

While people should take what "youtube/twitch celebrities" say with a pinch of salt, I believe preach has some solid points here.

Unlike order halls, which basically forced you to use your class specific hall for the entirety of the expac, here you can choose from any of the ones we've seen so far BUT, like he said, everyone levels differently thru out the expac.

Chances are that most people will not get the full grasp of what they're actually choosing until they've seen someone else's choice while they do dungeons or do random crap in the overworld and go "damn... I chose the woodland people because the quests that I did made them seem cool but I didn't know the vampires had this awesome ability later down the line!". Not to mention that we still don't know if they'll put enough testing on all of the "choices" to make them as close as possible (dmg wise for example) so that later on none of them gets the nerf hammer or boom... there goes your choice...

Not trying to invalidate people who will choose their covenant purely over cosmetics or "it just looks cooler than everything else" but if you watch preach's video without going "ugh, he's just bitching for the sake of views" you'll actually see he has some really interesting points that affect everyone even those that will just be doing low level dungeons or a few WQs every now and then....

Hope that blizzard keeps on listening to feedback on beta!

[Krakan]

Never said easier, just flexible. If anything, it could be harder. Because not only would you have to get geared, but with the game built around more optional and drastic abilities, fights could be much, MUCH harder. With everyone having crazy abilities all over the place, finding a strategy to deal with much more powerful bosses would be a great and fun challenge.

It would be easier. Far,far easier. Content simply can't be designed that way. I imagine the difficulty would cap out around black temple standards.

[Mirishka]

His feedback is pretty reasonable and he has SEVERAL other videos where he is praising the xpac. People just hear him talking about the negative of the system(which he isnt wrong about) and thinks he is being bitter.

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Fact: he isnt a moron for pointing out flays in the xpac

Fact: just because someone criticizes the xpac doesn't mean they hate it

Fact: Criticism can lead to positive change(which has happened a lot in the alpha)

Fact: Borrowed power is not a new concept in this game and we just went through an xpac where they couldn't achieve anything they said they would with it.

Fact: People see a content creator's video post and instead of watching it, they bash said content creator and draw their own baseless conclusions.

Aw, you copied my post, how cute. Anyway, here's a couple thoughts.

For one there's a difference between objective criticism of the game and 'imma make negative videos for clicks and to circlejerk all my WoW hating followers' which is absolutely what some of these people do. Hence my choice of the word 'morons'.

These constant topics that regurgitate streamer opinions and present them as some kind of infallible fact are useless. At the end of the day Blizzard is going to make the game they choose to make because it is their game. They don't need <insert name of streamer here> to sign off on their design decisions, and the idea that these guys somehow deserve to police the direction of the game (when they have literally nothing to do with the IP or its creation) is an absolute joke.

[crakerjack]

Most of the criticism I've seen is wannabe-elitests crying over not being able to switch covenant abilities freely. I severely doubt anyone will be impeded by what covenant ability they pick. You're not going to be un-invited or kicked from a dungeon/raid because you don't have a certain covenant ability. If you do, it's by some edgy player who is probably doing it for the shock value. If you are a skilled individual and play your class right, that's all that matters. I like to min/max too, but I'm just turning off that part of my brain when it comes to covenants. I know the theme of the covenant I join and how it relates to my alts class will matter the more than what abilities I get.

If I happen to pick a bad combo ability wise and would have been better off picking another covenant, then too bad. I don't think there's any scenario where I'll be ignored/removed from a raid because of my decisions. People will see how well I play and that's all that'll matter.

[plz delete account]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dfMsHvxYFY

So Preach has made some videos explaining his issues with shadowlands. Something about players being "forced" to pick certain covenants and being stuck there forever? Can someone explain to me the sudden drama and hate surrounding shadowlands? Just a week ago Preach was praising the game. Now Shadowlands is going in a bad direction? What changed. I'm genuinely confused as to what happened over the past week. I'm trying to relate to the criticism but its really hard to relate to. I have never been forced by my guild to play something I don't like. His problem just sounds confusing to me as im so far removed from this issue. Can someone explain this drama to me? And the sudden bitterness to Shadowlands? This isn't specifically about Preaches feelings themself, the videos just seem to be the catalyst for the recent drama.

I'm sorry preach but this video treats the other side as bad and ignorant. That anyone that disagrees with him is selfish. Why am I selfish for prefering a permanent decision to being given the choice to swap abilities? For wanting covanents to not be swap able? Wouldn't the other side be just as selfish?

to answer the title: the moment *this* shadowlands was leaked, RDA was bitching about it.
Also, being "forced" to pick a movement ability and a class ability? With how soulbinds and paths are shaping up, that's actually turned into a rather stale joke muttered only for irony imo

[Selastan]

To better illustrate my hypothetical change, let me make up a boss.

A goblin inside a giant mech factory. Now, he has several abilities. A timed buff that gives him a cleave that deals electric damage. He frequently summons bombs that track a random player, blowing up and dealing damage to everyone around them, including himself. After crossing damage thresholds, he will fill the room with lava, up to three times, shrinking the arena each time. On the edge of the arena are switches, pulling one will activate a big mech, fighting for the raid until it dies. Assume this boss and his abilities' numbers are tuned much, much higher than normal.

Now, ordinarily, the strategy would be simple: When a bomb spawns, have target player kite it around until his cleave expires, then have everyone run out while the player lets the bomb catch them next to the boss. Melee players run out during the cleave, spawn all mechs before the lava spawns and you can't get to the levers.

Now imagine that with a new system. The boss would have so much health, even playing optimally the players wouldn't burn him down before the room filled to the max, forcing all players in range of his cleave, a soft enrage timer, (because regular rage timers are just lame). How does one win? Well, it varies. Maybe there is a super usefull mage ability that lets them stop time for an entity. It doesn't deal damage, doesn't work on bosses, so a mythic raider would never take it, right? Well, what if they could freeze the spouts that spawn the lava. If you had as many mages with this ability as the lava spouts, you could have them freeze it, but ONLY if they all acted quick and simultaneously froze the spouts at the same time the boss activated his ability. Now, you would think that this would mean that the ability would be required, and mages would be required, for the mythic raid, right? Nope, because if you don't have mages, maybe you have a paladin who can create a massive damage immunity bubble. That paladin could take the bombs even when players were near the boss, because they could help the raid ignore the splash damage, killing it faster.

Maybe some bosses do get easier, because the raid team just so happens to be ideal for said boss, but that tradeoff means that others will be much harder with the same abilities.

[Louz]

I don't get this drama over covenants and the constant crying over being "forced to pick one".

You are "forced" to pick a class too, and a race.

And just like with the covenants, they have direct impact on how will you perform and how you may or may not get invited for raids and M+

Except that class, you can't switch...

[cparle87]

"Of course he's going to be positive, they listened to feedback."
"Blizzard caved to fan pressure...also known as listening to feedback, after an entire expansion where they notoriously did not listen to feedback."

...yes. Yes, that's generally how things work.

Things like "caving" on Torghast not having timers when the community did not want timers...is a good thing for every type of player.
Making Enhancement an interesting and dynamic spec after it was widely regarded as poor in BFA...is a good thing for every type of player (that wants to play a Shaman).

Like, think about what you're saying. ...also, is turning with your mouse elitist now? Good gravy.

If it's a good thing they did, why use an expression with such negative connotations as "caving"? Blizz can't win. Don't do what the vocal forums demand "They don't listen to feedback!" Do what the vocal forums demand "They caved!"

[NihilSustinet]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dfMsHvxYFY

So Preach has made some videos explaining his issues with shadowlands. Something about players being "forced" to pick certain covenants and being stuck there forever? Can someone explain to me the sudden drama and hate surrounding shadowlands? Just a week ago Preach was praising the game. Now Shadowlands is going in a bad direction? What changed. I'm genuinely confused as to what happened over the past week. I'm trying to relate to the criticism but its really hard to relate to. I have never been forced by my guild to play something I don't like. His problem just sounds confusing to me as im so far removed from this issue. Can someone explain this drama to me? And the sudden bitterness to Shadowlands? This isn't specifically about Preaches feelings themself, the videos just seem to be the catalyst for the recent drama.

I'm sorry preach but this video treats the other side as bad and ignorant. That anyone that disagrees with him is selfish. Why am I selfish for prefering a permanent decision to being given the choice to swap abilities? For wanting covanents to not be swap able? Wouldn't the other side be just as selfish?

its so silly. since covenants were first unveiled people saw the problem if the system didnt change. several months have gone by, probably over a year, and the same problem exists with the same system, and theyve done nothing about it. its like watching someone lay down on train tracks a train coming at them at 1mph and just thinking like.. come on man, just move. you have plenty of time, just.. get out of the way. its insane.

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I don't get this drama over covenants and the constant crying over being "forced to pick one".

You are "forced" to pick a class too, and a race.

And just like with the covenants, they have direct impact on how will you perform and how you may or may not get invited for raids and M+

Except that class, you can't switch...

this logic is bad. every class can get into raids. only certainclass/covenant combos being viable means 1: most people will figure out the meta during beta and just pick that, leading to this system where you can pick what you like on paper having 0 flexibility or 2: big parts of the playerbase who didnt know the meta ahead of time will just be screwed. defend it all you want, but its just a bad system. hopefully the mass feedback about it in beta will have them walk this back.

[Aqua]

He's a drama content creator. He shits on the game nonstop, this is how he makes money after all.

Preach is one of the few I won't say is 'stirring the pot'. Yes his opinions hold alot of weight in the community, and people are going to look at any negative he comes back with as galling and HOMG ITS GOING TO BE ANOTHER BFA.

But he is rightfully pointing out a flaw with the system, if you're locked into a covenant, and one gets nerfed/buffed or your class changes in a way that a different covenant is now better for you, and your min maxing raiding guild requires you to all take the movement/dps options. You're fluffed. Without making the skills of the covenant completely unimpactful, not allowing some system of moving covenants is going to create serious issues in game play further down the line.

I do applaud him pointing it out and highlighting it for blizzard, because this needs to be thought of early, before it gets out of hand and people sour to the notions of this covenant system. (honestly should have just made it class based with no options priests/paladins/warriors etc go to Kyrin... Deathkights,Warlocks etc etc... you get the idea)

Allowing so much choice is going to make this expansion gargantuanly tricky to balance.

My advice, if you're not in a top raiding guild (Aka mythic cleared in the first month of release) or a Keytotin Mythic dungeon min max, cleared in optimal times, manic person. Relax. It's not an issue that's going to effect you much more than maybe a bit of regret if another covenant gets something cool.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I think for me it was the first time Blizz published class feedback notes where they said they were going to re-prune abilities they had added back. So I believe when they posted the Mage update.

The press tour only reinforced that by giving me flashbacks to the 5001 unfinished systems of BFA.

[Sharnie786]

He is still praising the game now. However, being critical is allowed. It should be welcomed. The covenant system won't really impact the people that don't engage in group content or if they do their performance isn't really that important. It only affects people who care about their performance.

You can't relate, great, but the majority of us can. They need to remove power attached to such choices. It adds nothing to the game and instead takes away fun gameplay. I want all my toons to join Night Fae but I know that won't happen because the Soulshape ability is pants for most of the classes in comparison to the Venthyr ability. Not to mention the class specific ability that is definitely pants for mages and druids (the 2 classes i mainly play) and then there will be a layer of soulbinds with power attached too. Just those 3 things alone are going to be hard to balance. Why they're adding them is beyond me.

Make covenants COSMETIC ONLY!

[Xykotic]

He's a drama content creator. He shits on the game nonstop, this is how he makes money after all.

Projection much? You're the one that seem to want to create drama, and you seem to be the one wanting to shit on something.

[Orwell7]

I don't get this drama over covenants and the constant crying over being "forced to pick one".

You are "forced" to pick a class too, and a race.

And just like with the covenants, they have direct impact on how will you perform and how you may or may not get invited for raids and M+

Except that class, you can't switch...

I've seen this bought up a lot, valid point!

However, in the past (pre-Legion), if you choose the "wrong" class, or needed 2 more mages for the next raid boss, you could REROLL, level up quickly, have your guild/friends gear you up pretty easily, and then you are ready to raid.
WITH YOUR FRIENDS, while being useful, and you felt good about your accomplishment.
Get it?

Now, you level your class, you choose a spec with a proper (?) Covenant, then grind for random Conduit drops... and then shit happens and what you have chosen IS NOT NEEDED, and some random guy who appearently has the needed "systems" for the next endboss, he just gets invited over you.
Because you choose WRONG.
And that feels BAD!

What we all campaining for is to make it easy to switch. Make the initial grind on one character a necessity to see the story (we didn't like this either, we like to raid and do dungeons, not soloing, this is an MMO for God's sake), and then, for your alts (or even specs) make it EASY.

That's it.


Also, classes are MUCH different from each other, new experiences, trying out new things is always FUN.
Having an overpowered (for that boss, particularly) ability to have is NOT a new experience, it just simplifies the game.
And, again, in the past, leveling and gearing A COMPLETELY NEW CLASS was EASIER than getting your other spec up-to-date now. THAT is the problem!

[Wuusah]

I think people are in general very happy with what they are seeing right now. There are some issues with the Covenant systems but let's be honest, if Shadowlands released with exactly the same system that it has right now, it would still be a thousand times better than BfA was.