[Spoilers]Lilian was quick to respond. “XXX is one of us now. You will have to acce

[TrueHorde]

Chapter One

Orgrimmar

Much as it surprised him, the dry heat and endless noise of Orgrimmar felt like home. Perhaps it was like returning to a wayward, peculiar family, one Thrall had not necessarily chosen, but that he had come to respect. Thrall, son of Durotan, former warchief, had expected to recoil at the familiar scents and mayhem of the Horde city, but he slipped back into its rhythm with surprising ease.

In a way, the familiarity of it frightened him. Things had changed, of course; the Horde itself had changed. It had to. No longer could a single warchief rule them all. No, like a strange family, the Horde had grown, suffered, expanded, retracted, and finally, he thought, they were beginning to find their feet not as different nations united by a single voice, but as a chorus of strong voices raised as one.

Wolves grew stronger as a pack, in numbers, and there in Grommash Hold, among the Horde Council, he saw many fine wolves at his side.

Do not fear this, he thought, gazing around at those assembled. You lead no one. You simply sit among equals.

His pride did not chafe at the thought; in fact, he welcomed it.

Thrall placed his hands on his knees, leaning forward as the two young tauren braves giving report in the center of the rotunda finished recalling their tale. They had sighted two dark ranger spies on a ridge in the Northern Barrens, and after alerting a senior patrol in the area, the rangers were tracked and captured. The spies had swallowed some foul concoction and died before they could be questioned, but still, they would no longer be allowed to be the Dark Lady’s eyes in Durotar.

A smattering of applause went around the room, and the two braves stood tall, puffing out their furred chests and holding their spears straight. Thrall couldn’t stop himself from wondering how long they would live, what cold, bleak place far from here would be their end, what families they would leave behind as they gave themselves over as grist to the mill of war.

No. No. They were putting a stop to all of that. That was the purpose of the council, to eschew the bloody whims of one in favor of more tempered policies. And while many still flinched at the mere mention of the armistice, Thrall thought it a reprieve the Horde sorely needed.

“Well done!” Lor’themar Theron called to the two braves. The leader of the blood elves with his long, pale hair, scarred and dead left eye, and painstakingly groomed beard raised a chalice. “Bravely done. A toast to these fine soldiers of the Horde. Lok-tar!”

“Lok-tar!”

Thrall raised his own cup, but his eyes fell on an empty seat beside the crimson-clad leader of the blood elves. Other pairs of eyes and Lor’themar’s good one had wandered to that spot throughout the afternoon. It seemed almost too ironic—here they were, a council in response to Sylvanas Windrunner’s controversial leadership and self-exile, and nobody sat in her place to speak for the Forsaken.

Even the new queen of Zandalar, Talanji, had come from her far-off nation to meet with the council. She sat almost exactly across from Thrall in the circle of chairs making up the council in the hold, and she had said little so far, something, he knew, that was uncharacteristic of the brash young queen.

Beside her, nearest to the entrance, sat the also newly risen trade prince of the Bilgewater Cartel, and while Gazlowe might have been diminutive in size, he had made his larger-than-life presence known throughout the day’s reports, discussions, and disagreements.

The goblin had just poured himself more ale when two figures burst through the open archway, startling the tauren braves and Gazlowe, who slopped half of his drink down his shirt. He grumbled and swore, his single tuft of brown hair wobbling back and forth as he wiped furiously at the stain.

Their conspicuously missing council member had at last appeared. A slight, blue-eyed undead woman ran breathlessly into the hold, her gaze flicking in every direction, her posture suggesting she was not at all sorry for their tardiness. Behind her, a ghostly pale woman, also undead, stood with far more poise. They could not have been any more different, the two ladies, one ravaged by her affliction to the bones, the other smooth and unblemished, glowing from within with an arresting light.

Lilian Voss, interim leader of the Forsaken, and Calia Menethil had arrived, stealing the attention of every breathing creature in the hold, and leaving the two reporting braves to shift awkwardly in the sudden silence. Calia seemed to be watching Lilian’s every move, as if she might be tested on it later. Finally, Baine Bloodhoof gestured for them to step away, and the two tauren shuffled toward him, kneeling on the floor behind their high chieftain.

Nobody spoke, and nobody seemed to know what to say, least of all the new arrivals. Lilian Voss adjusted the worn pack on her shoulder, her boots, grieves, and cloak spattered in fresh mud.

To Thrall’s right, the white-haired and white-tattooed first arcanist Thalyssra coughed delicately into her fist.

I am not their leader. The silence stretched painfully on. Thrall stood and opened his arms wide to the newcomers, conjuring a warm smile.

“Your absence was keenly felt,” Thrall boomed. “The Horde is not the Horde without the Forsaken.”

Lilian nodded, biting down so hard on her lower lip that Thrall worried she would break the skin. Her companion, the luminous Calia Menethil in priestly garb, glided forward, inclining her silver head toward him. “Graciously said.”

“Join us, please.” Thrall returned to his seat and indicated the open set of high-backed chairs reserved for their party.

“You will find Orgrimmar’s finest foods and all the wine or mead you can . . .  er . . .  I mean, we are at your disposal,” the vulpera Kiro said, paws washing over one another after the mistake. They were new to the Horde, after all. More softly, he added, “Please take a seat.”

The gaffe broke the tension, and Gazlowe got a good chuckle out of the tawny vulpera’s misstep. The undead had no need of food or drink, and Thrall was glad to find their new Forsaken leadership did not take offense. Instead, they were welcomed by the immense and feather bedecked Baine Bloodhoof and Lor’themar, sitting on either side of the empty chairs.

“May we ask what detained you?” Lor’themar inquired as the ladies were seated.

“Our people can’t stay in Orgrimmar forever,” Lilian replied, at last finding her tongue. Once she had sat down and unburdened herself of her pack, she appeared more at ease. Her blue eyes flashed brighter as she straightened her back and removed her leather cloak. “It’s too hot. We prefer the shadows and the damp. Perhaps in time the ruins of Lordaeron can be reclaimed and our home there restored. Things are a little less heated with the armistice, but that doesn’t mean Alliance ships are happy to see our flags at sea.”

Across from them, sharpening a knife beside the trade prince, the Darkspear troll Rokhan hissed and leaped to his feet. His tusks gleamed as readily as his dagger. “They give you trouble?”

“We took the long way ’round,” Lilian rasped. “Added a few days to our journey.”

“Better to be careful in these tense times,” Calia added softly. “Lest we cause a diplomatic incident.” Then she shrugged, weary, and removed her sun-faded blue shawl, folding it neatly. “I am sure if we were intercepted, Derek Proudmoore could intervene on our—”

“The Proudmoores can do nothing for us.”

Just when Thrall felt the thrum of nerves in the room dissipating, the young Zandalari queen was on her feet, icily rigid. Talanji slashed her hand through the air, her many golden piercings twinkling softly as she did, her tall, jewel-encrusted headdress casting a looming shadow that reached across the hold and flickered in the firelight.

Leather squeaked and iron jangled as the murmurs and shifting began. Behind him, Thrall heard his page, Zekhan, blow out a long breath.

“The Horde could not stop the attack on Zandalar, a failure I took in stride, believing that when we had recovered, we could take the fight to the Alliance, to the Proudmoores,” Talanji continued, her voice shaking with emotion. “Peace with the Alliance means peace with the Proudmoores, with Jaina. I was foolish to believe my people would have their revenge.”

Thrall squeezed the bridge of his nose. And it had all been going so smoothly. Perhaps he should have expected this. They were all so different, these assembled leaders, with conflicting ideas on what it meant to be part of the Horde, and no doubt their visions of the future varied as well. The tide of uneasy voices in the room began to crest.

Before he could offer something mollifying to the new queen, Lilian was quick to respond. “Derek is one of us now. You will have to accept that.”

Talanji snarled, taking a single menacing step toward the Forsaken leader. “I have to accept nothing. You need me, and I had thought we had need of the Horde; now I see you will not help us seek justice for the siege of Zuldazar.”

https://bbs.nga.cn/read.php?&tid=22544205

[Powerogue]

Interesting drama, definitely building on what we saw with Talanji in the early previews. She is grating against the Horde. Understandably enough, as the Horde has gotten her people involved in their second civil war in a decade, the sacking of her city, the loss of her father, all with very little to show for it to prove that this allegiance was a worthwhile investment.



We've known Derek to be a forsaken since he was raised, deserving, yet deprived, of the same choice that was to be offered to all of them, it's one he has now taken. That does not mean it will be easy for others to accept, any more than for any of us to accept Calia's apparent Horde allegiance. I hope the book delves into that parallel, but will have to see once I own it.

edit: Reading through the full exerpt here rather than skimming to the part from the title, I love Rokhan's bit with the knife. Don't cross a troll, hot damn. And that tension as everybody is waiting for the first person to speak because they were used to a warchief doing it was genius. Lilian Voss being interim leader of the forsaken is a fun development, with "Calia seemed to be watching Lilian’s every move, as if she might be tested on it later." making me all the more curious as to where their relationship stands right now. I want this to play into my theory that Calia is still oblivious to "modern forsaken culture" and will be shocked when she finds their dark side, but can't speak on that for sure just from this.

[Jshadowhunter]

Thank god that plot thread wasn't abandoned.

[Super Dickmann]

Nothing new. Derek is only slightly more Forsaken than Calia, but still not at all. Daily reminder that he was able to chill out in a comfy retirement home that his sister got for him to opposition for a year with no issue from anyone and even in this excerpt he is treated as a get out of jail free card if ships meet the Alliance. But so far, so standard with the nu-undead and the Alliance characters they lug around like incurable tumors.

Anyway, in more interesting news, this portrayal of Talanji will make me very sad when by the end of the book she has to accept love and peace and I like that it's Rokhan and from another segment, especially the Mag'har backing her. Her issue with the Horde isn't its help in early BFA that saved them from being giant maggot country, it's with the follow-up. Is it a personal concern? Sure. Focused on Zandalar? Yup, but it gives her a lot of character. Especially since she's only lost out from change in the system - where before she had an exclusive spot opposite the Warchief, now she's stuck in a Council where she can be outvoted at will by people who she doesn't know and did nothing for Zandalar.

Here's how this continues, with Rokhan, the Mag'har and Talanji standing up to the Alliance crew wearing the Forsaken's skin like Buffalo Bill:

[Powerogue]

Nothing new. Derek is only slightly more Forsaken than Calia, but still not at all. Daily reminder that he was able to chill out in a comfy retirement home that his sister got for him to opposition for a year with no issue from anyone and even in this excerpt he is treated as a get out of jail free card if ships meet the Alliance. But so far, so standard with the nu-undead and the Alliance characters they lug around like incurable tumors.

Anyway, in more interesting news, this portrayal of Talanji will make me very sad when by the end of the book she has to accept love and peace and I like that it's Rokhan and from another segment, especially the Mag'har backing her. Her issue with the Horde isn't its help in early BFA that saved them from being giant maggot country, it's with the follow-up. Is it a personal concern? Sure. Focused on Zandalar? Yup, but it gives her a lot of character. Especially since she's only lost out from change in the system - where before she had an exclusive spot opposite the Warchief, now she's stuck in a Council where she can be outvoted at will by people who she doesn't know and did nothing for Zandalar.

Here's how this continues, with Rokhan, the Mag'har and Talanji standing up to the Alliance crew wearing the Forsaken's skin like Buffalo Bill:
[img]https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/625714461461708841/726115037797810266/6EDjjwC.png[img]

It makes me all the more curious how this'll be handled. The Horde is many voices, of often different goals and intentions. But they always had a warchief to act as the mediator (or dictator...) to keep this ragtag bunch organized. Now the number of voices have almost doubled, and the mediator is no longer present. How will they handle this?

I want to know even more now, and am actively putting "order the book" on my calendar so I stop forgetting.

[Super Dickmann]

It makes me all the more curious how this'll be handled. The Horde is many voices, of often different goals and intentions. But they always had a warchief to act as the mediator (or dictator...) to keep this ragtag bunch organized. Now the number of voices have almost doubled, and the mediator is no longer present. How will they handle this?

I want to know even more now, and am actively putting "order the book" on my calendar so I stop forgetting.

With the exception of Calia, I do like how Roux handles the leadership dynamic here. Golden did an okay job of it in the BTS scene, showing this can just as easily be done with a Warchief, but the Council setup lives and dies on the basis of how often you can have these people clash over things. The more they agree, the less purpose there is for them to exist. Even blocs should have various reasons to do so - see how Thalyssra and Bob's arguments are different from Voss's on why they shouldn't do things and how the Mag'har don't give a shit until the reference to Grommash Hold is made. Having a raucous atmosphere only makes sense, though if there is a mediator I suspect it'll be Thrall unless he's gone back to being the orc leader.

As said in the other thread, the biggest issue as I see it is that it's bound for an anticlimax within 250 pages, because this is not a dynamic that's being carried into Shadowlands from what we can see.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

It makes me all the more curious how this'll be handled. The Horde is many voices, of often different goals and intentions. But they always had a warchief to act as the mediator (or dictator...) to keep this ragtag bunch organized. Now the number of voices have almost doubled, and the mediator is no longer present. How will they handle this?

I want to know even more now, and am actively putting "order the book" on my calendar so I stop forgetting.

Even in democracy, people wind up flocking to leaders. I imagine the council members will organize themselves into cliques/factions, and dominant speakers/figures of each clique/faction will emerge.

... Hopefully. If no strong leader emerges then the Horde really has nothing holding them together besides being the "superpower that isn't alliance", which isn't even that meaningful anymore when Lor'themar was going to join the Alliance had it not been for Garrosh sabotaging him. Actually, I'm rather surprised Lor'themar is still sticking it out with the Horde after the disaster that was Sylvanas. The rest of the Horde is stuck on Kalimdor and won't really be able to offer him any meaningful help anyway, and he has no Undercity as buffer state between him and the Alliance If war breaks out again, there really isn't any way Silvermoon will be able to survive a siege. Pragmatically he really should switch sides at this point. Then again, Blizzard is still insisting on sticking with faction divide right now...


I really hope we get to see what the Huojin have been up to. They've been completely forgotten since 5.0. Sure, we get to check up on Ji as a character every now and then, but Horde Pandaren haven't had any story presence sense the Wandering Isle questline way back in MoP. Where have they settled? Are they a significant presence in Orgrimmar? Do they identify with the plights of other the other Horde races/factions?

[Syegfryed]

Nothing new. Derek is only slightly more Forsaken than Calia, but still not at all. Daily reminder that he was able to chill out in a comfy retirement home that his sister got for him to opposition for a year with no issue from anyone and even in this excerpt he is treated as a get out of jail free card if ships meet the Alliance. But so far, so standard with the nu-undead and the Alliance characters they lug around like incurable tumors.

Anyway, in more interesting news, this portrayal of Talanji will make me very sad when by the end of the book she has to accept love and peace and I like that it's Rokhan and from another segment, especially the Mag'har backing her. Her issue with the Horde isn't its help in early BFA that saved them from being giant maggot country, it's with the follow-up. Is it a personal concern? Sure. Focused on Zandalar? Yup, but it gives her a lot of character. Especially since she's only lost out from change in the system - where before she had an exclusive spot opposite the Warchief, now she's stuck in a Council where she can be outvoted at will by people who she doesn't know and did nothing for Zandalar.

Here's how this continues, with Rokhan, the Mag'har and Talanji standing up to the Alliance crew wearing the Forsaken's skin like Buffalo Bill:

good, is good that they show there still horde in the fucking horde, they aknowledgy(sad thing i think is how the regular orcs will be even more erased in prol of the maghar)

pissed me the fuck off how they are trying to make the nightborne relevant, like she is a core and important race, like garl, you came yesterday, take your seat.

Also, Rokhan spitting some fourteen truth bombs, cowardly talk in the Grommash hold

[Val the Moofia Boss]

pissed me the fuck off how they are trying to make the nightborne relevant, like she is a core and important race, like garl, you came yesterday, take your seat.

Yeah, it does kinda feel like a rookie guild member trying to dictate guild policy on the same level as veteran officers, but the Nightborne are probably one of the most powerful factions (militarily, economically, and magically) in the Horde atm. In council democracies, the wealthiest council member is probably the actual leader, or the most powerful council member. They have the power to actually make things happen. The Tauren, the Darkspear, and the Orcs may have the most seniority in the Horde, but the Tauren aren't even an agricultural power with the only thing they can contribute would be skins/furs and a few troops. Darkspear literally live in huts. Orcs seem to actually have an established industrial base in Orgrimmar, as well as settlements throughout Kalimdor.


Relative standing/voting power of each race within the Horde

Most powerful

• Orcs: seniority, most populous Horde race, established industrial base in Orgrimmar and settlements throughout Kalimdor. Strong military. Powerful vote.

• Blood Elves: somewhat senior. Tied with the Nightborne as the wealthiest Horde race. Powerful military and magicians. Few in numbers and located across the ocean in the Eastern Kingdoms. Powerful vote.

• Nightborne: new member. Tied with Blood Elves as the wealthiest Horde race. Powerful military and magicians. Few in number and located across the ocean in the Broken Isles (but with no hostile powers). Powerful vote.

• Bilgewater Cartel: somewhat senior. Economically powerful and the technological backbone of the Horde. Powerful vote.

Moderate vote

• Forsaken: many in numbers (at least until the Valkyr died, now finite). Industrially and militarily significant. Contributes specialists in alchemy. Moderate voting power.

• Zandalari Trolls: strong military and good economy, but separated by ocean and don't contribute much else.

(notice how all of the above have at least a decently sized navy/sea going trade; the below do not)


Weak votes

• Tauren: seniority. Economically weak and relatively few in number compared to other races. (they are nomads who have one tent city and don't farm food, only thing they can really trade are furs/pelts).

• Darkspear trolls: seniority. Economically weak. Has no major settlements.

• Mag'har Orcs: strong military but few in numbers.

• Highmountain Tauren: okay economy (farms and established economy and a city in Highmountain), but separated by ocean from Kalimdor.

Irrelevant

• Huojin Pandaren: Hasn't been developed since 5.0. Presumably very few in numbers. Contributes nothing significant economically or militarily (Huojin warriors are probably as strong as Mag'har, but again, they're just never mentioned). Holds no major settlements.

• Vulpera: small trading economy located across the ocean.

[TrueHorde]

Thrall...a clown a joke! He has no balls now.

[Fewane]

Relative standing/voting power of each race within the Horde

Very much agreed with those. To go on with the guild analogy, it's not like a guild is getting a new member who starts as a novice, more like a powerful guild acquiring a smaller one - the smaller one is still a significant power within the larger one, and can easily play politics in the guild (especially if the leaders of the consuming guild are not unified).

I personally like how the new power balance is processed: Nightborne becoming very relevant within their new community and becoming a relevant part of it, while the Zandalari stay more in the sidelines at the moment. This opens up many possibilities for the future development of the Horde.

[eurojust]

What's the point of the Horde anyway? What is the Horde? Why do factions exist? They forced the faction conflict since vanilla for gameplay reasons, and it was already weird to have night elves in alliance and forsaken in horde. But more than ever the way they spend thousands of lines talking about their faction is just ridiculous.

[Grazrug]

Talanji is right here. We don't have to accept anything. Calia is not horde and never will be. Blizzard needs to stop trying to make it so.

[Super Dickmann]

I'd say the Nightborne should by all counts be stronger than the Blood Elves, and I'd switch the Bilgewater and Zandalari around in scaling as Zandalar is both a center for trade, a power bloc with serious spiritual and political chops with all trolls and no slouch in the army department, but overall I agree with @Val the Moofia Boss. Good post.

[eurojust]

Talanji is right here. We don't have to accept anything. Calia is not horde and never will be. Blizzard needs to stop trying to make it so.

Why not? Forsaken are Horde, Elves are Horde. Why would some troll who just joined the Horde two weeks ago would have the legitimacy to say "X isn't Horde"??

[Venziir]

Interesting drama, definitely building on what we saw with Talanji in the early previews. She is grating against the Horde. Understandably enough, as the Horde has gotten her people involved in their second civil war in a decade, the sacking of her city, the loss of her father, all with very little to show for it to prove that this allegiance was a worthwhile investment.



We've known Derek to be a forsaken since he was raised, deserving, yet deprived, of the same choice that was to be offered to all of them, it's one he has now taken. That does not mean it will be easy for others to accept, any more than for any of us to accept Calia's apparent Horde allegiance. I hope the book delves into that parallel, but will have to see once I own it.

edit: Reading through the full exerpt here rather than skimming to the part from the title, I love Rokhan's bit with the knife. Don't cross a troll, hot damn. And that tension as everybody is waiting for the first person to speak because they were used to a warchief doing it was genius. Lilian Voss being interim leader of the forsaken is a fun development, with "Calia seemed to be watching Lilian’s every move, as if she might be tested on it later." making me all the more curious as to where their relationship stands right now. I want this to play into my theory that Calia is still oblivious to "modern forsaken culture" and will be shocked when she finds their dark side, but can't speak on that for sure just from this.

That said, without the Horde, G'huun would have won and both she, and her father, would have been killed and the entire Zandalari empire would be under the rule of Zul. So while she does have the right to be angry, she should still remember that.

[Tarba]

...
Without the horde that retarded queen would still be in an alliance jail.
Without the horde zul would have won Zandalar.
Without the horde, Zandalar's main general would have took power.
Without the horde the bloodtroll would have wiped them.
Without the horde G'huun would have been freed.
Without the horde Zandalar would be an alliance city.
And I'm just talking about Zandalar direct destruction.
Zandalar was a lost cause and was helped and saved by Sylvanas's horde. And she fucking complain that the horde didn't save her daddy. She should be apologizing of her useless people.
But heh that's the hypocrite council, writen by retards. We can't expect much.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

What's the point of the Horde anyway? What is the Horde? Why do factions exist? They forced the faction conflict since vanilla for gameplay reasons, and it was already weird to have night elves in alliance and forsaken in horde. But more than ever the way they spend thousands of lines talking about their faction is just ridiculous.

The Horde and the Alliance coalition superpowers. Nations join them for the benefits: security and prosperity.

The orcs, Darkspear, and Fauren formed the Horde to protect themselves.

The Forsaken joined because they broke free and desperately needed other people to trade with and to have allies for protection, and since the Alliance was a no go that left only the Horde as the alternative coalition to join

Blood elves had begun recovering and found themselves vulnerable. Related to the Forsaken, and followed in their footsteps.

Goblins were always trading with and vuilding stuff for the Horde (they are the only other technologically powerful race in the setting and the Gnomes were already aligned with the opposing coalition). In fact, the Goblins were so close with the Horde, Alliance naval commanders assumed that Goblin ships were Horde. Bilgewater Cartel joined the Horde out of desperation but stayed because it was profitable (industry and being the backbone for technological development in the coalition).

A handful of Pandaren who sympathized with the Horde joined.

Highmountain joined for access to wealth and security, also helps that the Tauren were already aligned so it seemed to be the go to.

[Grazrug]

Calia is an alliance character I hope she dies before she can infect forsaken with some light redemption BS.

[Venziir]

Calia is an alliance character I hope she dies before she can infect forsaken with some light redemption BS.

She's not a member of the Alliace, and hasn't been since her father was king.