[Spoilers]Lilian was quick to respond. “XXX is one of us now. You will have to acce

[Tarba]

Eh, that's probably not true - the Alliance only attacked Zandalar because the Zandalari were working with the Horde.

Nope, it would've been wiped off the face of the map by G'huun.

The alliance attack happened after the horde saved Zandalar about pretty much everything.
So, if the horde had not helped taking back the city after saving itat least 4 times, it would have been an alliance city.

[gcsmith]

The alliance attack happened after the horde saved Zandalar about pretty much everything.
So, if the horde had not helped taking back the city after saving itat least 4 times, it would have been an alliance city.

The point was, if the Horde hadn't saved it from G'huun, it wouldn't have been standing for the alliance to capture.

[Alanar]

One person approached her whereupon she started yelling 'I am Calia Menethil' and urged them to defect to Stromgarde Keep where the Alliance would protect them, something she says in her pitch to Elsie all of those present on the field did as well. After that stunning revelation Sylvanas shot her and them. Following Sylvanas trying and failing to put her out of our collective misery she was raised by the Alliance King and then lived as a guest in a cottage with Jaina on Alliance territory in Stormsong. All this line of argument in any case has nothing to do about whether she or the nu-undead have more to do with the Horde or the Alliance - it's transparently the latter.

It was mostly because of familar faces and obviously derek and calia, both having to face as new forsaken and voss joining in later in that conversation.. it's obvious she wanted people around her she knows. Calia was lucky jaina was so calm against her. That conversation and at the end only shows where she stand and that she will help other newly risen forsaken in their path. None of this was about alliance bindings or reasons to join them. They know eachother.. but under their circumstances they will never be able to walk the streets of stormwind even if they want that. She never cared as far as we know. This is what we know now, Calia before even being undead was more interested in being a priest then anything else lol.

She will act act as a neutral character and as she will guide us or we her in shadowlands.

The more important question here is.. how did she get such cool gear.

[TickTickTick]

Well, judging by this excerpt and posters here cheering for mindless warmongering being what the Horde is about, see y'all in MoP 3.0!

Time for Rokhan to be Garroshed I guess.

[Super Dickmann]

It was mostly because of familar faces and obviously derek and both having to face as new forsaken and voss joining in later in that conversation.. it's obvious she wanted people around her she knows. Calia was lucky jaina was so calm against her. That conversation and at the end only shows where she stand and that she will help other newly risen forsaken in their path. None of this was about alliance bindings or reasons to join them. They know eachother.. but under their circumstances they will never be able to walk the streets of stormwind even if they want that. She never cared as far as we know.

She will act act as a neutral character and as she will guide us or we her in shadowlands.

I'm not arguing with you regarding whether Calia acted logically in going to her friends instead of strangers, merely that those being her friends and her lack of Horde interaction plus her general goal and theme pretty clearly put her more in one camp than the other. But I do heavily disagree on the bolded part - why exactly are they unable to walk the streets of Stormwind? The undead living divide was solved at the Gathering within an hour and even setting aside that, neither Derek nor Calia had any issue living in Kul Tiras. They aren't cast out - they choose to leave.

Given the recent interview I suspect they'll have her meet Arthas. Walking on eggshells incarnate, that.

@keymil

Since he's out of the Horde we can't have Gallywix turn Ironforge into a fast food joint, unless of course we have him drive the council into irreparable debt to him and force them to pay it off by being crowned Warchief(TM).

[Alanar]

Um, she was there before Zalanji was, if you want to count things that way...

I didn't know Talanji had a sister, but yes you are right She was before Talanji and the book implies she is a a selfish bitch at the horde table.

Talanji needs to stfu realy, she should be happy hr kingdom still stand because of us.
She is gonna get so much shit over her.. if only Rastakahn was there to help the horde build..

[Feanoro]

Time for Rokhan to be Garroshed I guess.

Quickly followed by the people cheering for da WER in WERcraft to do suprised Pikachu, followed by raging about losing characters.

[Alanar]

I'm not arguing with you regarding whether Calia acted logically in going to her friends instead of strangers, merely that those being her friends and her lack of Horde interaction plus her general goal and theme pretty clearly put her more in one camp than the other. But I do heavily disagree on the bolded part - why exactly are they unable to walk the streets of Stormwind? The undead living divide was solved at the Gathering within an hour and even setting aside that, neither Derek nor Calia had any issue living in Kul Tiras. They aren't cast out - they choose to leave.

Given the recent interview I suspect they'll have her meet Arthas. Walking on eggshells incarnate, that.

No, you said she was an alliance character.. thats where I come to prove you wrong, that was the conversation, wether they choose to leave or not.. is irrelevant because it was never about leaving the alliance, because she wasn't part of that to begin with.

Yea some interview hinted at that.. obvious shot tho, I mean her last name screams they should meet in one way or another.


edit: Idk if it was realy solved.. the outcome was rather dishearting for a 2.0. Sure you could say it was Sylvanas fault, but they will need to start over again or build again on trust and feel safe in that envoirment. It would need peacefull meetings with villagers as well and not just leader who have seen everything already.

[Super Dickmann]

No, you said she was an alliance character.. thats where I come to prove you wrong, that was the conversation, wether they choose to leave or not.. is irrelevant because it was never about leaving the alliance, because she wasn't part of that to begin with.

Yea some interview hinted at that.. obvious shot tho, I mean her last name screams they should meet in one way or another.

My point, as I said at the start, is that as the old meme goes, she's on every level but the physical an Alliance character. The only thing she lacks is the label, but her actions, her connections, goals and aesthetic are all blue.

[Syegfryed]

Yeah, it does kinda feel like a rookie guild member trying to dictate guild policy on the same level as veteran officers, but the Nightborne are probably one of the most powerful factions (militarily, economically, and magically) in the Horde at

why they are? they just get out of a civil war and the events of the Legion, their more problem is to deal with fucking wine production, they are strong in magic but its just that doubt there is more atm, if anything, Forsaken vote would be weak due to the Sylvanas event, losing their home and all and nightborne moderate, both way behind taurens, trolls and maghar

i would even put blood elves as moderate cause they still face problems in their homeland and their small numbers, taking account of how the other races are "together" and close in terms of culture compared to the elves and forsaken, plus their "seniority" by being OG races

Also, worth to notice, the zandalari are an empire, of not just the zandalari, but all trolls who are loyal to zandalar, they have power enough to stand with the horde as equal, not subservient, like the nightborne did.

Rokhan is stupid. He would be dead 10 times over if it wasn't for A) Varion taking mercy in MOP and B) Anduin being a cowardly manchild. If anything, he proves the Horde is a warmongering group the Alliance should never, ever trust.

nothing you said is any true or make sense

[Ardenaso]

Rokhan is stupid. He would be dead 10 times over if it wasn't for A) Varion taking mercy in MOP and B) Anduin being a cowardly manchild. If anything, he proves the Horde is a warmongering group the Alliance should never, ever trust.

Rokhan is right. The Kul Tirans attempted genocide twice on the Darkspears in just Warcraft 3 alone

- - - Updated - - -

and they never made any amends for it

[Monster Hunter]

Alot of unresolved anger after the 4th war, and the peacemakers are gonna spend SL in the jairlors bed and breakfast, makes you think what will the players return too once SL is over?

We beat the scourge in the pre patch obvs, with no other threat on azeroth its self, and us lot all locked away dealing with matters in the Shadowlands, mayhaps the fire of talanji and genn will set a few more trees alight in our absence?

[gcsmith]

Rokhan is right. The Kul Tirans attempted genocide twice on the Darkspears in just Warcraft 3 alone

- - - Updated - - -

and they never made any amends for it

Ahh, sure, and how many Genocides has the horde been guilty of... lets see, 1 and 2, and then several in wow...

[Alanar]

My point, as I said at the start, is that as the old meme goes, she's on every level but the physical an Alliance character. The only thing she lacks is the label, but her actions, her connections, goals and aesthetic are all blue.

Yea its just not man.. but if you view her that way you are free to do so
She is calm, human, knows jaina and has a last name which everyone knows and connect to the alliance Look I understand people think she is, but your arguments can be said about thrall, baine and anduin. Her actions and words are more about peace and bringing together afther she kinda died, before that: ''It's just Calia now'' Calia in legion

She is just not.. so I have to dissagree.

[Raisei]

Nothing new. Derek is only slightly more Forsaken than Calia, but still not at all. Daily reminder that he was able to chill out in a comfy retirement home that his sister got for him to opposition for a year with no issue from anyone and even in this excerpt he is treated as a get out of jail free card if ships meet the Alliance. But so far, so standard with the nu-undead and the Alliance characters they lug around like incurable tumors.

Anyway, in more interesting news, this portrayal of Talanji will make me very sad when by the end of the book she has to accept love and peace and I like that it's Rokhan and from another segment, especially the Mag'har backing her. Her issue with the Horde isn't its help in early BFA that saved them from being giant maggot country, it's with the follow-up. Is it a personal concern? Sure. Focused on Zandalar? Yup, but it gives her a lot of character. Especially since she's only lost out from change in the system - where before she had an exclusive spot opposite the Warchief, now she's stuck in a Council where she can be outvoted at will by people who she doesn't know and did nothing for Zandalar.

Here's how this continues, with Rokhan, the Mag'har and Talanji standing up to the Alliance crew wearing the Forsaken's skin like Buffalo Bill:

I am actually quite amazed by this part. I did not think the Horde would commit to peaceful coexistance for more then 1-2 expansions, but after this bit I have to wonder if their next civil war will wait as long as to the end of this book.
If Talanji goes "For the Horde" now and declares the council unfit to wear the crown of the Horde she has several people on her side, not because they care about Zandalar, but because "ewww peace and diplomacy, that is nothing for a true Horde member *insert Tim Allen grunting noise*"

Let's see how many Talanji for Warchief threads we get after tomorrow.

[Mehrunes]

Something that people seem to have missed so far is that Lillian is referred to as the Forsaken leader in the book. She's still a garbage pick and she may be swapped to Calia only later on (or the book can be revealed to be written from the Titan's point of view four years down the line), but it's still something compared to the black hole that is Calia.

She had no interest in the forsaken throne until some forsaken approached her and were like "We're seriously doubting everything Sylvannas has ever told us, maybe if you lead us we can be at peace with our living relatives."

I see where you're going with this (vide your later reply to @Super Dickmann, but while Calia did not have specific plans to usurp Sylvanas' throne right then and there, she did have aspirations for it in a general sense. A dream for the future, after she gained the Forsaken's trust. On a side note, the only Forsaken perspective for the defection we've seen in the book was "Welp, I like being with my relatives and I doubt Sylvanas will arrange another meeting". Nothing about doubting everything Sylvannas has ever told them.

Maybe if Sylvannas hadn't murdered the few humans who gave them even slight bit of trust, they would have had someone to vouch for them. "But we're forsaken by the living..."

Given Garithos' attitude, that was a clear case of who'd turn on the other one first. Sylvanas being Sylvanas decided it should have been her.

From what I read of 'Before the storm', I liked reading that there were forsaken that still had empathy and 'love' as much as it was. And it proved that the hatred of undead had nothing to do with being undead, but the fact the Forsaken actually generally acted little more than monsters anyway. At least the leadership.

Before the Storm was not even remotely required for that. There were Forsaken acting like that since Vanilla. BtS simply has the gall to act like it was a new revelation, because it retconned 15 years of Forsaken story, turning their society into thought police state where even a mention of Lordaeron was verbotten despite Sylvanas rallying Forsaken in Cataclysm around the idea of Lordaeronian revanchism.

[Amaterasu65]

" If the wolf is rabid, it matters not who rides it. Sooner or later, the beast will bare its fangs. " - Tyrande Whisperwind

[Artelia]

...
Without the horde that retarded queen would still be in an alliance jail.
Without the horde zul would have won Zandalar.
Without the horde, Zandalar's main general would have took power.
Without the horde the bloodtroll would have wiped them.
Without the horde G'huun would have been freed.
Without the horde Zandalar would be an alliance city.
And I'm just talking about Zandalar direct destruction.
Zandalar was a lost cause and was helped and saved by Sylvanas's horde. And she fucking complain that the horde didn't save her daddy. She should be apologizing of her useless people.
But heh that's the hypocrite council, writen by retards. We can't expect much.

Actually everything around Zandalari was Sylvanas idea. She actually saved them.....saved her. Sylvanas gave order to everything. This new concil done noting to Zandalari. Bunch of traitors.

[Mehrunes]

Rokhan is stupid. He would be dead 10 times over if it wasn't for A) Varion taking mercy in MOP and B) Anduin being a cowardly manchild. If anything, he proves the Horde is a warmongering group the Alliance should never, ever trust.

That cowardly manchild surrounds himself with people that are the proof that Alliance is a warmongering group and why the Horde should never trust the Alliance in the first place, so Rokhan's attitude is more than rational. Also, when did Varian "take mercy" in MoP and what's the link between that and Rokhan not dying. I hope you're not referring to Varian's empty posturing at the end of SoO. Because that was followed by Alliance ceding territory to the Horde, showing their actual position.

[Syegfryed]

Something that people seem to have missed so far is that Lillian is referred to as the Forsaken leader in the book. She's still a garbage pick and she may be swapped to Calia only later on (or the book can be revealed to be written from the Titan's point of view four years down the line), but it's still something compared to the black hole that is Calia.

they are definitely trying to build Calia to take over, but every time they do, they have to back down because the backlash of the community and try a different approach, thats why they obviously ignore all other options and characters

they are always trying to make he relevant and present, so they can excuse saying: "see guys? she appear there!! she totally is a fleshed out forsaken character ready to assume the position!11!!"