Isn't there an obvious solution to the "Mandatory covenants" issue?

[FlubberPuddy]

My issue is i aesthetically love the Venthyr, love the zone, love the sanctum weekly mission, and love the visuals, but i hate the Mage class ability. It will literally fail to fully function on a large number of boss mobs because they won't use 3 spells or abilities in the time frame.

I aesthetically enjoy Arcane Mage spells, but my main Paladin can't switch his kit to that nor has access to any ranged spec. Again, picking the Covenant is supposed to feel like picking a Class.

There's always something players wish they had with their selected Class, no one looks at their class and goes "yup everything about it is completely perfect and I don't want Blizzard to ever change or add anything new to it".

If someone can settle with Classes locking in that way, and having to have a separate character of another Class to experience different Class, then Covenant system restriction should also be acceptable.

Otherwise, you and others very against the concept of Covenants should've been campaigning for years to be able to switch Classes on the whim too.

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im sorry, i dont know on which end is the issue but i have no clue what that bolded sentance mean

If you read the following sentence you should understand within that context.

[Specialka]

A few players playing in a tournament under non-standard rules of the game (such as getting to pick whatever corruptions they want for a copper, and kit out whatever class immediately in standardized gear) doesn't equate to the game being a competitive multiplayer game in the same as League/DotA.

Can every single player of WoW get the perks of the switching characters/loadouts/abilities like the tournament players?

In League / DotA / CoD / Fortnite it's completely possible - everyone's on an even playing field.

Your comparison easily falls apart.

So you want to dumb down wow to cater to LFR warrior ?

[Soon-TM]

Your comparison easily falls apart.

Say what you want, there is a competitive scene, and it is endorsed by Blizzard themselves. No opinion of yours changes that fact.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

well you cant use one side of that argument and not the other

if it will be semi-permanent as it is now, people who WANT to change it will be screwed, as they will have to use something that is not the best in every situation
if ti will be switchable as talents are, people who DONT WANT to change it will be screwed as they will have to use something they dont like

so saying "if it can be changed it will not affect you" is just not true...

perhaps the solution could be if we can change them (perhaps with minor "cooldown" for the change) BUT the ability of your chosen covenant (if selected) would be buffed somehow, or other way around, other covenant abilities would be a bit weakened... but i guess that would just cause people to whine about balance

No, they won't. They can just choose to not switch and deal with the consequences, which is much better than Blizzard saying "Fuck you" to literally anyone who wants to swap their Covenant for any reason. People who don't want to change will still have the option of choosing to not change, there will be some community consequences but it won't have as severe of a negative impact on player agency as the current system will.

Allowing people to freely swap their Covenant, say once or twice every week, would allow players to deal with the inevitable balance changes to Covenants without feeling completely fucked over by Blizzard when we inevitably see 1 Covenant giving an enormous advantage relative to the other 3. Since this is Blizzard and WoW, we know this shit will happen and I'd like for them to plan for the fact that they consistently fail at balancing the numbers in the game and build the system to allow players to change their choice without fucking over the players who don't care about the RP side of the game.

The most obvious solution is to either completely remove locking you to a Covenant, or simply unbinding the player power systems from the Covenants and make them a standalone system so people don't have to choose between performance or aesthetics.

[Soon-TM]

Easiest solution: just pick what you think is the most fun.

And get declined every time you want to partake in serious content - without getting carried, that is.

[Specialka]

Say what you want, there is a competitive scene, and it is endorsed by Blizzard themselves. No opinion of yours changes that fact.

Is there not some kind of leaderboard for mm + ?

[Soon-TM]

Is there not some kind of leaderboard for mm + ?

That would be r.io, even if it isn't its main (ostensible) purpose. But there is nothing official, aside from MDI ofc.

[FlubberPuddy]

So you want to dumb down wow to cater to LFR warrior ?

Nope. I don't even know how you'd ask that from what you quoted. Working without restrictions sounds like dumbing down to cater to the LFR warrior than working with restrictions and skillfully performing well despite those restrictions.

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Say what you want, there is a competitive scene, and it is endorsed by Blizzard themselves. No opinion of yours changes that fact.

A competitive scene with entirely different ruleset from the rest of the playerbase. Such a powerful argument /s.

"No opinion of yours changes that fact."

[Specialka]

Nope. I don't even know how you'd ask that from what you quoted. Working without restrictions sounds like dumbing down to cater to the LFR warrior than working with restrictions and skillfully performing well despite those restrictions.

Not really, as I pointed out, a meta player will perform better than a non meta player at equal skill level. No matter what you say. Leading to less wipes and more content clear and cleared faster.

[FlubberPuddy]

And get declined every time you want to partake in serious content - without getting carried, that is.

I play a non-meta spec (Ret Paladin) and I've gotten 2k r.io with KSM through pugging. By yours and others notions if I'm not part of the meta I shouldn't even be able to do such a thing.

[bloodwulf]

I aesthetically enjoy Arcane Mage spells, but my main Paladin can't switch his kit to that nor has access to any ranged spec. Again, picking the Covenant is supposed to feel like picking a Class.

There's always something players wish they had with their selected Class, no one looks at their class and goes "yup everything about it is completely perfect and I don't want Blizzard to ever change or add anything new to it".

If someone can settle with Classes locking in that way, and having to have a separate character of another Class to experience different Class, then Covenant system restriction should also be acceptable.

Otherwise, you and others very against the concept of Covenants should've been campaigning for years to be able to switch Classes on the whim too.

Except, despite what big blue is saying, this is nothing like picking a class. You have two gameplay affecting abilities and three trees that provide largely flat % bonuses. Soulbinds are the biggest misleading thing of them all, because if you look at it, the three choices for one Covenant versus another equates to largely the same percentages across the board. So Necrolord mages and Kyrian mages will not see a statistically meaningful difference in throughput from their different Soulbinds.

So what you are arguing, is two buttons (class ability and covenant ability) and aesthetics are as meaningful as picking a paladin vs a mage? You realize how ludicrous this argument sounds.

The only change necessary is class abilities. Soulbinds are whatever and will affect gameplay very little unless you just don't use them. The weekly events of covenants are going to essentially the same reward, you just get to it a different way. The covenant abilities could be ignored as the 3 non Venthyr offer about similar usefulness. It is only the covenant class abilities that is causing this much drama.

[VinceVega]

well, you might think their immersion is fake, they might think your optimisation is unnecessary, the thing is both groups have their way of playing and neither of you is wrong, there is just no reason why blizz should change the game based on your feedback and not theirs... only reason for that would be if you had vast majority, which i sincerely doubt...

i think I am in majority - i have my opinion (i prefer it the way it is) but if they change it, i wont really mourn...

Don't get me wrong i LOVE when games have immersion. Weirdly i was most immersed in BC and Legion. BC Aldor vs Scryer was great. Had a bit of playpower behind it but was not really anything you would bat an eye over. Still Scryers ftw.
But i can get immersion with nearly everything. And i get also that what other use with abilities give immersion. A walking treestump throwing blood on the ground is weird. That is why i would like them to skin the spells in the different covenants. And nearly all of them would be a simple color swap and rename. Everyone is immersed and everyone is happy. Your choice still matters because you can only have one covenant. For all i care they could make it permanen forever after that.

[FlubberPuddy]

Not really, as I pointed out, a meta player will perform better than a non meta player at equal skill level. No matter what you say. Leading to less wipes and more content clear and cleared faster.

And I'm telling you there's more shitty skilled players with "meta gear/talents/abilities" than there are equal skilled players with 1 having meta loadout vs non-meta loadout.

Live in your bubble that isn't reality all you wish though.

[Lolites]

No, they won't. They can just choose to not switch and deal with the consequences, which is much better than Blizzard saying "Fuck you" to literally anyone who wants to swap their Covenant for any reason. People who don't want to change will still have the option of choosing to not change, there will be some community consequences but it won't have as severe of a negative impact on player agency as the current system will.

Allowing people to freely swap their Covenant, say once or twice every week, would allow players to deal with the inevitable balance changes to Covenants without feeling completely fucked over by Blizzard when we inevitably see 1 Covenant giving an enormous advantage relative to the other 3. Since this is Blizzard and WoW, we know this shit will happen and I'd like for them to plan for the fact that they consistently fail at balancing the numbers in the game and build the system to allow players to change their choice without fucking over the players who don't care about the RP side of the game.

The most obvious solution is to either completely remove locking you to a Covenant, or simply unbinding the player power systems from the Covenants and make them a standalone system so people don't have to choose between performance or aesthetics.

so "break THEIR immersion bcs its not as important as MY minmaxing" is a solution... technicaly it is, same as "keep it as it is" IS a solution, but either of them will piss off part of playerbase...
from your comentary its obvious it doesnt bother you as long as it the OTHER part of playerbase and not you, but what else should i expect right...

and yes "change ability or get benched" is great for people im sure...
funny you say "they can choose not to switch and deal with consequences" as the consequences seem to be the very problem why people dont want the covenant powers locked in the first place... but again, as long as its not YOU who is inconvenienced its not a problem right?

as for balance changes, didnt bliz literaly reseted talents when they made impactful changes? (i mean before they were click-to-switch talents)
so to deal with changes it would be enough to get time for free covenant change when there is HUGE change...

[Specialka]

I play a non-meta spec (Ret Paladin) and I've gotten 2k r.io with KSM through pugging. By yours and others notions if I'm not part of the meta I shouldn't even be able to do such a thing.

On my server, top rio performer are around 4k and even more.

So it depends when you got that 2k, 4 months ago or now ?

[Sunslayer]

I don't know about you but I will definitely pick my Covenant based on a personal preference and will absolutely trash anyone who thinks they are properly min-maxing with just my skill alone.

I feel like I will end up choosing the the ability that is the most fun to use. But, that may not be the one I want to join. I guess you have to chose what's important to you.

Are mounts important?
Are Xmogs important?
Is utility important?
Is DPS, Tanking or healing important?
Is fun important?
Is story important?
Is faction important?

All of these individual choices are tied to a single choice, in Shadowlands. That is poorly thought out. I guarantee every single person in this thread will have regret tied to their Covenant choice. There is no way you can even remotely make the best choice when you lump 10 choices into 1.
Imagine this. Ok, you have to select one of 4 choices. Each choice will encompass (and no deviation)

What clothes you wear: Sweat pants and shirt (hoodies)
What car you drive: BMW 7 series
What TV shows you can watch: CSI: NY
What streaming service you can use: Apple TV
Which recreational hobby you have: Hockey
What your diet consists of: Vegan

What are the odds you like all of those? Very slim, right? Some you might love (the Car). Others you might hate (the Vegan diet). Do you see the point I'm trying to make?

[TEHPALLYTANK]

so "break THEIR immersion bcs its not as important as MY minmaxing" is a solution... technicaly it is, same as "keep it as it is" IS a solution, but either of them will piss off part of playerbase...
from your comentary its obvious it doesnt bother you as long as it the OTHER part of playerbase and not you, but what else should i expect right...

and yes "change ability or get benched" is great for people im sure...
funny you say "they can choose not to switch and deal with consequences" as the consequences seem to be the very problem why people dont want the covenant powers locked in the first place... but again, as long as its not YOU who is inconvenienced its not a problem right?

as for balance changes, didnt bliz literaly reseted talents when they made impactful changes? (i mean before they were click-to-switch talents)
so to deal with changes it would be enough to get time for free covenant change when there is HUGE change...

How exactly does it break your immersion if you have the option to freely change your Covenant, but you choose not to?

[Lolites]

Don't get me wrong i LOVE when games have immersion. Weirdly i was most immersed in BC and Legion. BC Aldor vs Scryer was great. Had a bit of playpower behind it but was not really anything you would bat an eye over. Still Scryers ftw.
But i can get immersion with nearly everything. And i get also that what other use with abilities give immersion. A walking treestump throwing blood on the ground is weird. That is why i would like them to skin the spells in the different covenants. And nearly all of them would be a simple color swap and rename. Everyone is immersed and everyone is happy. Your choice still matters because you can only have one covenant. For all i care they could make it permanen forever after that.

for me that would work too, especialy since there is other covenant stuff related to power anyway, but i know they just wont do that, thats too much work so if its immersion or minmaxing i would go for immersion, but as i said, wont really care if they unlock it (especialy since my DK ability for necrolords is soo goddamn useless for bosses)
thing is, people are usualy thinking in extremes, so thats not gonna do it for most... doesnt matter anyway, blizz seems to be adamant on trying it their way, which means at earliest theyll change it in 9.1

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How exactly does it break your immersion if you have the option to freely change your Covenant, but you choose not to?

people in angaelic kyrian armor throwing bones and spiling blood around you perhaps?

[Thetruth1400]

The only real solution is for Blizzard to stop overcomplicating things with systems on top of systems on top of other systems when they can't even balance 1 system right.

We have never had balance across all the specs in the game. Right now, across several websites worth of DPS ranking data, there is a DPS discrepancy between the top DPS spec and the lowest of about 20K.

How do they realistically expect to get covenants, soulbinds, conduits, etc. to somehow be balanced when they can't even get the basics of class / spec / gear balance right that we currently have? The realistic answer is, they can't, they won't, and we'll just be in a convoluted clusterfuck nightmare like were were with the Azerite system where you have to look up a spreadsheet to determine what is going to keep you even remotely comparable unless you hit the luck lotto and randomly pick the class / spec / covenant that happens to be imbalanced towards.



As for why they don't just buff everyone to match the top, they literally can't without power creep taking over. We're not talking small differences here, we're talking big ones where X is clearly superior than Y, Z, A, B, and C. They have to bring X down.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

people in angaelic kyrian armor throwing bones and spiling blood around you perhaps?

So a Blood Death Knight being in the Kyrian Covenant breaks your immersion then. Cause being in a Covenant doesn't remove all of your class and spec abilities.

If this is your argument then it would make more sense for you to be arguing for classes being restricted to specific Covenants, because the type of immersion breaking you just used as an example is going to happen with the current system.